The great land grab

In RL this is what is called "due diligence".

"I've got some great swampland for sale" or "I've got a bridge in Brooklyn for you to buy".

I think most arguments/opinions, and certainly mine, are addressing the situation generally rather than the particular case in the first post. We can share our opinions of course, but I doubt that even if we all agreed on who is and isn't responsible under circumstances A or B, it's unfortunately not going to solve the problem. Even if the seller makes the buyer aware of the commitments and the buyer accepts them as being part of the sale, the buyer could deny all existence of them and so it still just comes back down to one person's word against another's.

Two things are needed, in my opinion.

First I think a clear distinction needs to be made in the UI between buying main grid land and 'buying' private island land, and I have already suggested changing the name of the 'buy' button. I think most angry threads made in these forums by residents who have been burned appear to be in genuine shock that their 'ownership' is not as secure as they had hoped, and so I think that small semantic change may reduce that.

Second, there needs to be accepted guidelines, which can only really be accepted if they come from LL, as to how liabilities should be managed during transfers. If the liabilities are not to be transferred to the new owner, then the seller should clear the sim before transfer, and the 'buyer' should not agree to the transfer until that is done. It won't solve the problem fully, as the party responsible for the liabilities could still welch on them, but it will at least ensure that those involved in the transfer can not hide behind vaguarity or ignorance.

Well, there's no way for us on the forums to know. But if you are buying a sim, you can stop by and right click on the land and go to the second tab from the left and read the covenant.

agreed, the land buy interface needs a revamp and LL step in on cases when residents contact them for help to avoid being ripped off

i just kept repeating what i said as some jumped to blame the buyer without some more info

I do agree that in most circumstances it's pretty obvious that there are liabilities on the sim, but it isn't always the case. And even when it is, estate owners use the covenant for many different purposes, and in my experience, the most common use is for zoning rules - even with a covenant in place, liabilities are not clear; a potential estate buyer has no knowledge of how much the residents have paid in 'purchase fees', how much tier they pay, when that tier is due, etc, etc.

Agreed, I raised a Jira request about this asking for the UI to be made to look different so that people should notice, hey this is different, one way or the other.

Out of interest i was reading a few threads going back to Mar & Apr 07 on several different forums. The hip topic in those days were about Land Bots and land flipping by Estate Barons. Remember land flipping?....which artifically drove up the square meter pricing on Mainland to absurd levels like 20 L p/sqm.....or even 30 L p/sqm!! Anyone sitting on those type lands today is facing large valuation losses.
Anyway the funny thing about those threads it was littered with comments advising people to BUY plots on Private Estates (renting wasn't a so fashionable a business model back then). I found it quite amusing how things have changed in such a short space of time. I wonder what we'll discussing this time next year regarding Land.

Probably how no one can afford it due to the rising tier prices. haha.

I remember that time of the great SL land bubble. I saw it coming and sold off all my mainland at the peak. That's how I got my islands in the first place. I am just a hobbyist, not trying to make a living, but I do follow the land market in SL just because it's just soooo interesting and everchanging.

I do still buy a piece of mainland and flip it now and then. Landbots are coded to recognize low prices. Not to recognize a real value when they see one.

and i was on the other end ... having bought first land in november 2006 ... and proceeding to buy up surrounding plots all thru last winter ... sometimes paying L$15,000 for a 512 plot.

I forsee something more sinsiter around the corner.........a RL recession effecting Nrth America and some European economies leading to more dumping of SIM's and more people being screwed in the process. Unless LL reduce their entire tier structure to stimulate the overall SL land economy....i forsee see tough times ahead. (Quote me next year)

What is happening here with the sims is that people are buying them on credit cards seeing instant dollar signs in their eyes but knowing nothing about the reality of the land market in SL or how to make a sim pay for itself, they think it's easy money. It's not. It's landlord work.

Then when they don't become rich overnight, or their credit card bill comes due, or no one wants to "buy" land on their sim because it looks just like the mainland & they are charging overinflated prices to make back their $1675 instantly, they take the money and run.

That's why it's important to talk to the sim OWNER before renting/buying/leasing any land on a private estate.

seems likely ... then they open a club ... coz that'll make them rich without the headaches of estate ownership ... then comes the shopping mall when that club doesn't do it ... then the escort club opens up in the remodeled mall space which only had that 1 rented store anyway ...

Quite possibly the same person, just different alts. Ahh the joys of having infinate free alts....................................
If not mainland cash up front to "buy" is silly considering many Landlords offer rent only for the same thing.
Buy Mainland or off an long term established Landlord, there are many around.

You hit the nail on the head....that happens so often it's untrue.

It would take nothing for a devious seller to hide the fact that he sold the plots by disabling the resell function, leading a prospective buyer doing due diligence to think that these are straight rentals and they don't have to pay back tens of thousands of L per plot.

Or how about this? The scamming of the buyer by tenants raising this kind of hackle, saying that they paid a certain amount of L to old owner but they didn't?

There is no way for a buyer to know who is correct, and it should not be the buyer's responsibility to pay back monies he or she didn't take in, if they didn't buy the land at a discount. And even then, good luck getting proper valuation of those plots.

I think I really really need to explain the difference between Estate/Island and Mainland "ownership" in my new resident kit. I am deeply saddened to hear about this all the time. It happens far too often.

Condolences to the OP. I hope you find a nice place to rent -- there's a lot out there too choose from! Good luck.

Wow... paying US$100 island transfer fee, just to hide behind an alt in order to get rid of tenants on a sim!? That seems a little farfetched..

This depends upon whether a transfer has taken place. When I was out there earlier, the estate owner , the person whom tier fees needs to be paid to according to the covenant, is not the person whose name is on the actual parcels. The person who sent the notecard has their name on the parcels, but that isn't the estate owner.

Something fishy would appear to be going on.

Hmm well he made $200US just off one tenant, so $100US is peanuts................
This has been a ubreputable Landbaron scam for last 14 months I know of

Why transfer to an alt? They can just boot everyone without switching.

Because it appears like a legitimate transfer to an owner who wants to use it differently. Didn't you notice earlier in this thread that the new owner was being defended?

A simple grab and boot tends to look worse and starts drawing critism.

Because that alts name would be crap afterwards, so a new alt is squeeky clean and free and less likely to be tied back to the 50 times this person has done this before

Derbor..dishonest indeed..how dishonest depends on how much time passed between the land owner selling the land to our beleaguered author and the next sim owner. If it could be proven (and let's face it..it can't) that the previous land owner knowingly planned to sell the estate prior to selling the plot..then it's nothing short of f******g fraudulent (s'cuse my legal terminology).

This (and I have little doupt many other similar grievances) is an outrageous state of affairs which has come about by the ambivalence of Linden Labs. Linden Labs must accept responsibility that they as site hosts have a legal responsibility for all financial contracts between their site members. Call it what you will..an Island..a Region..it's a piece of space on a computer server..and Linden Labs own it.

Ultimately of course..SL exists by the will of its residents..much as any nations government exists by the will of its people. We as residents (paying customers) can at any time demand change..question is..when do you want that change...

food for thought..


Perre..

I "own/rent" land on an estate. (I have a great sim owner). I pay Tier in advance. If she sold the sim and I was ejected, I would expect the paid in advance portion back.

You can expect it all you want. And knowing her well enough to trust that she will is great. Just always be aware that she and all other estate owners are under no obligation to do so.