Havoc 4, Mono, Stability
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Peggy Paperdoll
A Brat
Join date: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 4,383
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08-26-2007 20:44
From: Chip Midnight @Peggy - if you ever lose a skin just give me a yell and I'll be happy to replace anything that goes missing. Chip, I know you would.......as would 95% (or more) of the content creaters in SL. But, that's not the point.......in no way should the burden of replacing lost inventory be put back on the creaters. You and everyone else who make the stuff that keeps SL going are not responsible for the losses......it's LL. And they should be the ones who make it right. As long as the people (like you) continue to shoulder LL's responsiblities LL will not fix it.......it's no sweat off their backs. It's your sweat....and it ain't right. I see your point......but I can't go along with it, Chip. I hope you see mine (and others who have posted on this thread).
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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08-26-2007 21:02
I do see your point, Peggy  We can only work with what we have. Just gotta make the best of it.
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SuezanneC Baskerville
Forums Rock!
Join date: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 14,229
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08-26-2007 21:04
I'm not current on what the most recently claimed benefits of Havoc 4 are said to be. I think that users tend to think that an updated physics engine would cause a dramatic improvement in the realism of the behavior of objects, a view generated from hope and too many demo videos of thousands of objects tumbling about realistically or buildings being shot and exploding into realistic fragments which follow hundreds of graceful trajectories, tumbling all the while, until they hit the ground, which tosses up thousands of clouds of realistically moving dust, while the developers see more subtle improvements such as fewer cases of sims crashes caused by excess collisions.
Supposing that mono arrives and allows script execution speeds to increase by factor of hundreds, say for the sake of discussion, a three fold increase in script speed.
What nice sorts of things would you like to see done with scripts that run 3 times as fast and whatever benefits you think mono would bring?
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Tristin Mikazuki
Sarah Palin ROCKS!
Join date: 9 Oct 2006
Posts: 1,012
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08-26-2007 21:10
Sim crossing that dont waist ya while your flying a Bi-Plane lol or walking for that matter lol
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Sindy Tsure
Will script for shoes
Join date: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 4,103
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08-26-2007 21:29
From: SuezanneC Baskerville What nice sorts of things would you like to see done with scripts that run 3 times as fast and whatever benefits you think mono would bring? Less lag on my (usually) trusty but tired class 4 home sim? I'm not as excited about as doing new stuff with faster scripts as I am hopeful that LL is sorta stalling on new LSL features until Mono gets to the grid. Switch/case (and not just for ints!), better string parsing support, built-in functions for common things like color name to color vector, etc, etc, etc. I don't expect to ever write real OO code with LSL but they could do some not-too-hard things that would make life easier on scripters. As for Havok: if it's more effecient, I'm for it. Slow-moving vehicles haven't worked well since very early this year.
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Isablan Neva
Mystic
Join date: 27 Nov 2004
Posts: 2,907
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08-26-2007 21:31
From: Yiffy Yaffle Very true chip. It's best you take some time to not use photoshop (i know how hard it is, being a artist myself), and explore second life, do the things we all do and see how buggy SL really is. If you honestly haven't seen even 1 bug then your really not using SL that much. Heck we even have bugs and glitches at login... How did you not see that? lol Just like Chip said, not everyone is having a crippling SL experience. That isn't making less of those of you who are having issues, but to say that Chip isn't paying attention really isn't fair. I pay attention and I'm having zero issues with SL. Yeah, I get a glitch here and there, but SL works relatively good for me. Granted, my expectations may be lower and thus I'm happier with SL.... In my mind it boils down to why you were here in the first place as to how SL works. If your first love really is gaming, or if you were here for the prOn, or to play house, or here to make money then there are better alternatives out there. To want to be HERE is to want something WoW, TSO, or Naugthy America cannot fulfill - which is being a part of something really groundbreaking and being able to actually create your own content and contribute it to the SL world. SL offers things of value to me that nobody else does, which is why I accept it - warts and all. If you are unhappy here then leave, why stay in a relationship that has gone sour? Why stew in all this negativity when there are dozens of other options out there? I think I find enough value in SL to be willing to tolerate it going a little wonky from time to time.
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Usagi Musashi
UM ™®
Join date: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 6,083
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08-26-2007 22:56
From: Chip Midnight I know I've fixed or replaced stuff for you before, Usagi, so you know what to do  Give me a shout in world and let me know what it was and approximately when it was purchased so I can check the records. OMG i so old ehehheh  thanks chip I know what to do we done it before 
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SuezanneC Baskerville
Forums Rock!
Join date: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 14,229
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08-26-2007 23:31
From: Tristin Mikazuki Sim crossing I can't help but wonder what the kind of hardware described in the article at http://www.advancedimagingpro.com/online/article.jsp?siteSection=3&id=4427 , except below, might do for sim border crossing. Sure sounds to me like having 64 contiguous sims all on the same processor, each able to look at each other's L2 cache, and other neat sounding stuff, might make it possible to walk from one sim to another without a glitch. From: someone The annual Hot Chips conference for microprocessor and other chip designers is going on this week in Silicon Valley, and one of the hot--or rather, cool--new vendors showing off its new chip is a company called Tilera.
The company, which is based on ideas from research performed at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, has created a 64-core processor called the Tile64. This chip has a whole new instruction set architecture that, Tilera hopes, will shake up the appliance business soon and maybe the server market some day.
Tilera was founded in Santa Clara, California, in October 2004 and has been operating in stealth mode since that time; the company's research and development is still done in the tech corridor outside of Boston, in this case in Westborough.
The Tile64 processor that is being announced today is based on an MIT project called Raw, which was funded by the US National Science Foundation and the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, the research arm of the US Department of Defense.
The Raw project, which was initiated in 1996 and which delivered a 16-core processor connected by a mesh of on-core switches, delivered what was in essence the alpha version of the Tilera64 chip in 2002. One of the key components of that Raw project was the compiler technology that could harness the multicore architecture of the processor and the integrated switches that linked them together.
Anant Agarwal, who worked on the first MIPS RISC processor at Stanford University in the 1980s and who had created a 32-node mesh-based cache coherent processor at MIT in 1994, had tackled many of these problems.
The team that created the Tile64 processor includes techies who worked on Sun Microsystems' Sparcle and Digital Equipment's Alpha RISC processors, too, as well as networking systems from Cisco Systems and supercomputers from Hewlett-Packard and the long-since defunct Thinking Machines (also an MIT spinout).
Both DARPA and MIT have spent tens of millions of dollars investing in the research that has culminated in the Tile64 processor. According to Bob Dowd, director of marketing at the company, Tilera has closed two rounds of venture capital funding to get the $40m necessary to get a finished product, with a broad future roadmap, to market in 2007.
Bessemer Venture Partners, Walden International, Columbia Capital, and VentureTech Alliance have all kicked in venture funding; the latter organization is the venture arm of Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company, Tilera's chosen foundry for the Tile64 chip.
The Tile64 chip is not based on any existing processor cores and their associated instruction sets, but rather is a new core developed from the ground up to take advantage of mesh networking on each core to create a large pool of compute resources that can be dedicated to running a single instance of Linux and its applications or carved up on the fly into virtual Linux images, each isolated from other virtualized slices.
The Tile64 core is a 32-bit design, which uses RISC and VLIW concepts, rather than the 64-bit designs used on modern RISC and X64 processors. The core can do three instructions per clock cycle, and the chip's speed ranges from 600 MHz to 1 GHz.
The Tile64 chip has 64 KB of L2 cache as well as L1 data and instruction caches that are 8 KB in size each. The switch that is at the heart of the Tile64 processor actually implements five different mesh networks--one each for memory access, streaming packet transfers, user data network, cache misses, and interprocess communications.
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So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them.
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Aleister Montgomery
Minding the gap
Join date: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 846
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08-26-2007 23:39
One word on feature stasis: Second Life is no MMOG. Take out everything built by residents and all that's left is a chat client with a 3D graphics engine, some virtual land and a single avatar model (male avatars are just a morphed Ruth).
We, the residents, develop the features. Before a resident built the first car in SL, driving a car was no SL feature. Same with all other content, except of some trees. As long as thousands of content creators work within SL, there will be no shortage of new features. But in order to work here, we need a stable platform.
Currently nothing is stable or reliable. Vendors may work or not, inventory may stay after a purchase or not and one may be able to rez it or not. What use are nicer clouds or an improvised, awkward and lossy way to import certain types of mesh, if the very basics of this platform don't work?
LL can leave it to us to develop new features, i.e. new toys to keep the SL player and socializer types happy. What they need to deliver on their end is stability and reliability. SL is a communication platform that we pay for, some of us hundreds of dollars per month. If LL wants to beta-test a new form of 3D internet, they can create a free beta grid for this purpose. But the grid that is sold or rented out as a finished product is no test environment anymore and has to comply to a certain quality standard.
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Tegg Bode
FrootLoop Roo Overlord
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,707
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08-27-2007 00:13
From: Sindy Tsure Less lag on my (usually) trusty but tired class 4 home sim?
I'm not as excited about as doing new stuff with faster scripts as I am hopeful that LL is sorta stalling on new LSL features until Mono gets to the grid. Switch/case (and not just for ints!), better string parsing support, built-in functions for common things like color name to color vector, etc, etc, etc. I don't expect to ever write real OO code with LSL but they could do some not-too-hard things that would make life easier on scripters.
As for Havok: if it's more effecient, I'm for it. Slow-moving vehicles haven't worked well since very early this year. Hmm vehicles have never worked in the 10 months I've been here. And as far as people suggesting we don't upgrade to Havok4, the question is should we still be running Havok1 in 2017 because it will fix it self eventually? Scripts 3 times faster, hmm seems a waste of time, 10 times would be worth the trouble.
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Lee Ponzu
What Would Steve Do?
Join date: 28 Jun 2006
Posts: 1,770
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08-27-2007 10:03
From: Tegg Bode
Scripts 3 times faster, hmm seems a waste of time, 10 times would be worth the trouble.
I seem to recall that the Mono prototype speeds up scripts by a factor of 150. To look at that the other way around, any contribution of scripts to lag would go down by a factor of 150...
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Meade Paravane
Hedgehog
Join date: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 4,845
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08-27-2007 10:23
From: Lee Ponzu I seem to recall that the Mono prototype speeds up scripts by a factor of 150.
To look at that the other way around, any contribution of scripts to lag would go down by a factor of 150... I thought the number was 200x or so.. Cory thinks (or thought anyway) that it was a bit more.. http://blog.secondlife.com/2006/12/20/town-hall-with-cory-introductory-transcript/From: Cory Linden [14:40] Cory Linden: As long as we’re on libSL, one of our devs has used it pretty extensively in testing Mono. We’ve had several full up tests of Mono [14:40] Cory Linden: running on grids and things are looking very good. Because the Mono project is still dealing with some security issues and we’re finding [14:40] Cory Linden: memory leaks both in our changes to Mono and their code, we’re moving slowly and carefully. Novell/Ximian have been really helpful, so [14:40] Cory Linden: we’re making decent progress. There are some technical changes we still need to make in particular, we’ll need to compile Mono on the [14:40] Cory Linden: server side which requires a distributed compilation service to be running on the grid (yay, backbone!) but I expect that we will begin [14:41] Cory Linden: testing Mono on the main grid in Q1/Q2 2007. The process there will be to have places on the grid where you can bring scripts and [14:41] Cory Linden: recompile them into Mono for testing. That will let you report broken scripts to us. Since Mono tends to execute LSL about 600 times [14:41] Cory Linden: faster, I expect that there will be some interesting borkage around carefully timed scripts. [14:41] Cory Linden: Babbage has talked about the implications of Mono extensively, but it’s important to remember that the sequence will be: [14:41] Cory Linden: 1) Start allowing compilation of LSL to Mono/CLI. Test existing scripts like crazy. (Q1/Q2) [14:41] Cory Linden: 2) Think about ways to include other languages (Q more than 2)
/me tries several times to make the formatting not suck but can't seem to get it right..
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Rooke Ayres
Likes Shiny Things
Join date: 30 Dec 2006
Posts: 293
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08-27-2007 11:08
As some of you may have noticed, I've done my share of complaining about SL's performance. Especially about the performance for the last 3 weeks up until Thursday. It was pretty dismal. But since Thursday, I've only seen temporary problems - as opposed to problems that last for a day or more. Maybe LL's lastest round of updates has pushed SL in the right direction? Maybe the next round of updates will make it even better? Who knows? I certainly hope things get better, because I plan on being here for the long haul. Let's all remember that SL is basically in permanent Beta mode; at least until they get most of the bugs ironed out. And we all signed off on that when we agreed to the TOS. They implied it wasn't going to be a bed of roses. And, it's not. So do we have a right to complain when SL is borked? Sure we do. Should LL put bug fixes before new features? Ah! The knee-jerk reaction would be yes. I've stated so myself. But, what if the new features replaced the old broken code? It would get rid of the old bugs. ( It might also introduce a few new ones. ) LL doesn't have it easy rebuilding a system on the fly that was basically a "Hey, let's see if we can do this cool thing and pull it off!" I don't think they initially expected it to take off the way it did, although they were probably hoping for that. Obviously their original code was "rough" to put it nicely. Since they were operating on a shoe string, they took spare parts from the bargain basement and threw them together. Now they're trying to fix it. It's kind of like trying to change a flat tire while you're driving down the highway at 60mph. They're having a rough time of it, and as passengers, we're feeling it too. I'm not saying we should have any sympathy for LL (they knew what they were getting themselves into), just a little understanding. And as for Sculpties; I think they're way cool. Sculpties are just getting off the ground. We're slowly learning what we can do with them, and I think they have a long way to go. But once again, we have "rough" code rendering them in SL that could use a lot more polish. It's really difficult to make a sculpty look right. I'm hoping that gets better too.
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Salazar Jack
Nova Albion native
Join date: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 1,105
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Changing Tires On A Vehicle In Motion
08-27-2007 17:21
From: Rooke Ayres LL doesn't have it easy rebuilding a system on the fly that was basically a "Hey, let's see if we can do this cool thing and pull it off!" I don't think they initially expected it to take off the way it did, although they were probably hoping for that. Obviously their original code was "rough" to put it nicely. Since they were operating on a shoe string, they took spare parts from the bargain basement and threw them together. Now they're trying to fix it. It's kind of like trying to change a flat tire while you're driving down the highway at 60mph. They're having a rough time of it, and as passengers, we're feeling it too. I'm not saying we should have any sympathy for LL (they knew what they were getting themselves into), just a little understanding.
This part of your post reminded me of something I posted a long time ago with a reference to the Wright Brothers. The context of my post wasn't quite the same... I was responding to the thread's topic of whether or not folks who were using SL for income "got what they deserved." But the analogy fits with what you were talking about here. /108/f0/54545/5.html#post577363Salazar
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Jopsy Pendragon
Perpetual Outsider
Join date: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,906
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08-27-2007 18:37
New features are rarely born perfect. They take time to mature.
If we go into feature stasis, we end up with a rock solid but painfully slow world that used to be effective for a smaller number of concurrent residents. And perhaps not even that.... because extreme lag causes other things to fail too.
For every visible feature like 'sculpties', there's at least one invisible infrastructure change made in the efforts to make secondlife perform better.
"Better" means both faster and more reliably.
Speed is easy... if risks are okay. Reliability is easy... if speed is unimportant.
But, we must have both speed and reliability! Oh... and affordability too.
So, there are times when LL must throw out old parts of the infrastucture and replace them with newer architecture... and work through the rough times that will most certainly follow. These new features are intended to obsolete old bugs. Critical performance related bugs that LL can't polish away if locked into feature stasis.
I still have faith in LL... especially with so many brilliant contributors actively helping them on the open sourced client side.
As to the rest of us... will we help or hinder LL's balancing act?
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Tegg Bode
FrootLoop Roo Overlord
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,707
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08-28-2007 01:55
From: Salazar Jack This part of your post reminded me of something I posted a long time ago with a reference to the Wright Brothers. The context of my post wasn't quite the same... I was responding to the thread's topic of whether or not folks who were using SL for income "got what they deserved." But the analogy fits with what you were talking about here. /108/f0/54545/5.html#post577363/108/f0/54545/5.html#post577363Salazar Actually I seen a video on U tube of a guy changing a tyre on a car at around 10kph from in the car, of course it required the driver to keep the wheels on that side of the vehicle off the ground during the process 
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AWM Mars
Scarey Dude :¬)
Join date: 10 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,398
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08-28-2007 03:27
Isn't SL in a way much like RL? If everything was perfect, would we not then have anything to moan about? Would that in itself result in boredom? A friend brought about a fairly contraversal perspective way of looking at SL to my attention a few days ago, which made me stop and think. All the talk, hopes, wishes etc about SL somehow becoming bigger, better etc, could actually become detrimental to the very nature of what we have become to consider 'home'. If that were to happen, no longer can any making a mistake, blame SL/LL, their own mistakes would be firmly planted at their own doorstep. SL becoming a flashy, highly polished playform would certainly make it a good prospect for some corporate to gobble up.
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Johan Laurasia
Fully Rezzed
Join date: 31 Oct 2006
Posts: 1,394
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08-28-2007 04:29
From: Breeze Winnfield Hard to keep from laughing at a post stating that sculpties are essential to the growth SL. Just how is an out side of SL program created texture that replaces inworld building skills 'essential'?? It wasnt intended to replace in world building skills, it was intended to give people the ability to create complex shapes with fewer prims, and in a world where prim count is essential to make all this work, having such a feature makes sense.
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