Havoc 4, Mono, Stability
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SuezanneC Baskerville
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Join date: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 14,229
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08-25-2007 15:05
From: someone Linden Lab’s Effort to Improve Grid Stability Friday, August 24th, 2007 at 4:42 PM PDT by: Ian Linden
I want to explain our ongoing efforts to make Second Life as robust and stable as possible, while at the same time continuing to improve the quality and depth of the in-world experience. Innovative new features like 3D voice, WindLight, and Sculpties are essential for the continued evolution of Second Life; feature stasis just isn’t a good option. However, we are now devoting the majority of our development resources to considerably less visible behind-the-scenes improvements. These back-end changes have long-term benefits for the entire community, and will also help the grid withstand the sort of infrastructure failure we’ve encountered recently (described in my post here). I’ll use the rest of this post to highlight this work.
Bug Fixes Fixing individual bugs and system failures remains a high priority for us, and our largest (and growing) internal development group is dedicated to these tasks. The open source community is also a great help in this effort, and our team integrates a large number of fixes submitted by external developers. Some of these improvements were recently highlighted in Sardonyx Linden’s post on this blog.
Modern Infrastructure Much of the server-to-server communication happening within the Second Life grid is based on old technology which has served well beyond its initial design. When a failed database causes grid-wide problems, a de-rez doesn’t complete, or a teleport explodes on lift-off, this is usually why. So, there are currently multiple teams working on the wholesale elimination of this technology, replacing it with a modern web-service based approach. This is a big effort and will take a long time, but the benefits are myriad: when finished, this will improve reliability, eliminate data bottlenecks on crowded sims, allow multiple versions to co-exist, enable global scalability, and allow us to dispense with VPNs altogether. We’ve started to see first fruit in the form of fewer planned outages; most new releases no longer require us to shut down the whole grid.
Fewer Failure Points In addition, Linden Lab engineers are working to improve our database failover capabilities and to reduce single points-of-failure in the network infrastructure. We’re also refactoring all of our recurring data maintenance processes to reduce the impact of these on the main grid. Ideally, all of this work will be completely invisible to residents, but it will mean less grid downtime.
Viewer Stability Generally Second Life client crashes are handled by the ongoing bug-fixing project mentioned above, but a group of our graphics specialists have recently formed a team to improve the rendering code which is at the root of most crashes. This should lead to a more stable client on a wider variety of computer hardware.
Simulator Stability We’ve been talking about upgrading the Havok physics engine included in the sim software for years, and haven’t managed to deliver. However, this project is making real progress now and will be ready for a beta test soon. The Havok 4 version in development can withstand the majority of physics glitches and attacks that cause most sim crashes. A little farther out, we’ll be replacing the guts of LSL execution with Mono, which was on hold for a long time but is moving forward again. This will result in massive performance gains for scripts, but will also make sims (especially very busy sims) more stable.
A New Response Team As Second Life has grown, so too has Linden Lab. We’ve recently created the Production Operations team (a virtual fire department, if you will), which will add a new level of grid monitoring and trouble response. This group will provide superior 24/7 monitoring, and will diagnose, solve and escalate technical issues that arise on the Second Life grid, network and website. These engineers will also develop tools and automation technologies for monitoring and repairing Second Life more efficiently. We’re currently hiring new members for Production Ops all over the world – the job listing is here.
Communication We’ll periodically be posting updates on our continued efforts, and their relative success or failure. In the meantime, we depend on your feedback – please continue to report the bugs you experience.
As Second Life matures - more residents have more time, effort and money invested in-world than ever before - Linden Lab must be accountable for making the virtual world robust and stable, without losing sight of all the new capabilities we hope to add. There’s a great deal of work to be done, but we have far more resources than we did a year ago, and there are more engineers dedicated to stability and scalability than are working on 3D voice, WindLight, or sculpties combined. I believe that we’re headed in the right direction. Along with the other hoped for improvements described above it would sure be nice to not see grey textures all over the place, and to be able to have as a default a sun that doesn't look like a sun that forces you to put your hand over your eyes and get in the shade looking away, and to be able to just turn off the display of all or specific group IMs in your local area console chat. A promising blog post.
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So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them.
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Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard, Robin, and Ryan
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Breeze Winnfield
Registered User
Join date: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 50
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08-25-2007 15:42
Hard to keep from laughing at a post stating that sculpties are essential to the growth SL. Just how is an out side of SL program created texture that replaces inworld building skills 'essential'??
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Talarus Luan
Ancient Archaean Dragon
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 4,831
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08-25-2007 15:51
Well, features are definitely "essential" for the continue evolution of any system. HOWEVER, unlike what was said (well, implied, really) there, they are FAR LESS "essential" than a stable, useful platform.
In fact, contrary to what was said, feature stasis IS a VERY good option when you don't have that as a foundation, because building new features on a platform that you don't have a good handle on usually causes more problems and customer angst than feature stasis alone ever will. That's the simple (and not-so-subtle) wisdom that the Lindens don't grok.
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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08-25-2007 16:08
From: Talarus Luan In fact, contrary to what was said, feature stasis IS a VERY good option when you don't have that as a foundation, because building new features on a platform that you don't have a good handle on usually causes more problems and customer angst than feature stasis alone ever will. That's the simple (and not-so-subtle) wisdom that the Lindens don't grok. I can't say I agree with your reasoning there, Talon. New features stave off user boredom. Sculpties are the first thing in a very long time that got me excited about SL again. There are many things that could improve the SL experience beyond just having a stable grid. Stability alone doesn't cut it. A stagnant platform won't keep people interested.
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Tristin Mikazuki
Sarah Palin ROCKS!
Join date: 9 Oct 2006
Posts: 1,012
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blah to LL BLAH I say!
08-25-2007 17:53
From: Talarus Luan Well, features are definitely "essential" for the continue evolution of any system. HOWEVER, unlike what was said (well, implied, really) there, they are FAR LESS "essential" than a stable, useful platform.
In fact, contrary to what was said, feature stasis IS a VERY good option when you don't have that as a foundation, because building new features on a platform that you don't have a good handle on usually causes more problems and customer angst than feature stasis alone ever will. That's the simple (and not-so-subtle) wisdom that the Lindens don't grok. Could not agree more! Its reallt wierd watching the add stuff to SL when SL is so badly broken... and they are the ones who LOVE pr ya would think they would get the basic done first... but gones to show ya LL really has crappy coders... look at the produts they put out as "fixed" and "resloved" Any other real life company they would be "Fired" lol
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Cristalle Karami
Lady of the House
Join date: 4 Dec 2006
Posts: 6,222
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08-25-2007 18:09
From: Breeze Winnfield Hard to keep from laughing at a post stating that sculpties are essential to the growth SL. Just how is an out side of SL program created texture that replaces inworld building skills 'essential'?? My understanding is that they intend to make sculpty tools native to SL. When that is going to happen, I don't know.
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Zaphod Kotobide
zOMGWTFPME!
Join date: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 2,087
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08-25-2007 18:27
How is Second Life "badly broken"? If it were so, why is everyone still hanging around? Why aren't they flocking to Linden Lab's competitors? What's that you say? There is no viable competitor to Second Life? Yet? I getcha. Looking ahead into this emerging market of virtual world platforms, feature stasis will kill Second Life faster than any grid stability issue will. Feature development and UI evolution will be a fact of (Second) life.. get used to it. There's no stopping this train. Forget everything Ian blogged about, forget everything Cory has talked about in his last two Townhalls, forget that at least 3/4 of the developers, or excuse me, "crappy coders" as you prefer to call them, are working on rebuilding the grid and forklifting new, scalable pieces into it, one at a time. Forget that "Fixed" and "Resolved" are just bandaids applied at the scene while the real work is being done off the radar. Forget all that, and it's easy to arrive at your conclusion that they should all be fired. Take some time and actually consider what they are doing. Broaden your outlook a bit. This is much bigger than your own, individual experience. If you can't hang with it, then don't. .End Rant ..Going for food now ....Peace Edit: LOL From: Tristin Mikazuki Could not agree more! Its reallt wierd watching the add stuff to SL when SL is so badly broken... and they are the ones who LOVE pr ya would think they would get the basic done first... but gones to show ya LL really has crappy coders... look at the produts they put out as "fixed" and "resloved" Any other real life company they would be "Fired" lol
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Tristin Mikazuki
Sarah Palin ROCKS!
Join date: 9 Oct 2006
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08-25-2007 18:41
For startes SL doesnt have any competors anywhere There and Keneva are just a joke. Lag,40k online limit,PayPal being screwed, Inventory loss, NO CUSTOMER service, crashes both client side and server side...well the list can go on a VERY long time lol Ya SL is a broken toy. Saying SL isnt broken ya gotta have your head in the sand or be REALLY new to the net lol
O and stacking the fix code on top of the broken..ya like thats a good job LOL
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Zaphod Kotobide
zOMGWTFPME!
Join date: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 2,087
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08-25-2007 19:23
I wonder who really has their head in the sand. I really do. Cheers. And lol. From: Tristin Mikazuki For startes SL doesnt have any competors anywhere There and Keneva are just a joke. Lag,40k online limit,PayPal being screwed, Inventory loss, NO CUSTOMER service, crashes both client side and server side...well the list can go on a VERY long time lol Ya SL is a broken toy. Saying SL isnt broken ya gotta have your head in the sand or be REALLY new to the net lol O and stacking the fix code on top of the broken..ya like thats a good job LOL
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Talarus Luan
Ancient Archaean Dragon
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 4,831
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08-25-2007 19:55
From: Chip Midnight I can't say I agree with your reasoning there, Talon. The name is Talarus.  From: someone New features stave off user boredom. Sculpties are the first thing in a very long time that got me excited about SL again. There are many things that could improve the SL experience beyond just having a stable grid. Stability alone doesn't cut it. A stagnant platform won't keep people interested. Grid stability staves off user boredom. Being able to log in and teleport around staves off user boredom. Being able to accomplish the tasks I take for granted in any virtual world as well as those specific to SL staves off user boredom. I could live without sculpties if I could avoid client crashing >2 times a day, sim crashing >5 times a day, database errors and downtime for hours several times a week, etc. What good are all these features if a) they are bugged or cause other parts of the system to bugger itself, b) the grid is constantly in flux preventing you from happily using them? When the grid or an update goes SNALU, I go somewhere else; I have lost the will to fight with it when it is acting up anymore. Lately, I have been getting a lot of time logged "somewhere else". ..and, Zaphod, 7.5 MILLION accounts (~80%) already have gone "somewhere else". I will happily count myself amongst them as some of the other competition firms up, or I get a wild hair and actually start working on my own world again (yeah, it is/will be a toy, but I won't care; it'll be mine and I won't have anyone else to blame for its failings but myself, but I will be 100% capable of correcting that situation, if I so choose; can't say that with SL/LL).
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Zaphod Kotobide
zOMGWTFPME!
Join date: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 2,087
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08-25-2007 20:05
Where have they gone? Where do you get your numbers from? Where, exactly, is that "somewhere else"? At this point, in terms of what Second Life is, there isn't "Somewhere Else" just yet. That's kinda the point. From: Talarus Luan ..and, Zaphod, 7.5 MILLION accounts (~80%) already have gone "somewhere else".
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From: Albert Einstein Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness that created them.
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Jamay Greene
Registered User
Join date: 2 Jan 2007
Posts: 75
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08-25-2007 20:49
First off, I would like to say that inventory stability must be LL's top priority. That things can vanish from inventory is inexcusable and is costing SL and all of SL's content creators dearly in lost sales and lost customers. However, SL will never be perfectly stable. Never. I do wonder about people who insist that the existing system be perfected before any new features are introduced. Is it a fear of bugs or a fear of obsolescence?
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Peggy Paperdoll
A Brat
Join date: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 4,383
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08-25-2007 21:07
From: Zaphod Kotobide Where have they gone? Where do you get your numbers from? Where, exactly, is that "somewhere else"? At this point, in terms of what Second Life is, there isn't "Somewhere Else" just yet. That's kinda the point. No one knows where they could have possibly gone......nor can anyone know how many have gone. We don't get good numbers on those things. 8,000,000 accounts and not even a consistant 50,000 concurrent logins at any given time..........that says a lot, Zap. Those are not good numbers. By my math that's about .6% of the accounts that use the platform at any given time (point six.........6 tenths of one percent). Now, I know you are a very intelligent man. Explain to me how things can be so hunky dorey with little things like that. The simple reason even a pretty substainial number of the people who stay with SL is the fact that there is no competition. But, that competition will come.........and unless LL takes charge of their "toy" it's going to be gone. It'll be another There or Sims online. And I can see why the competition is slow to come........they are working to avoid the huge mistakes LL has made. They will come out with a better, more stable and scalable product. But not until then. I can wait.......as Im sure most who are waiting for LL to own up to their promises (promises that seem to be empty). Do I hate SL? Not at all. Do I think SL is as good as it could be? Not at all. Would I like for SL to be what it could be? Sure do. Will I remain loyal to SL when the competition hits the market? Only if they fix what they have and finally deliver on the promises I've heard for over a year and a half (otherwise, I'm gone.........like it appears 7,950,000 others have).
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SuezanneC Baskerville
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Join date: 22 Dec 2003
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08-25-2007 21:10
The "somewhere else" doesn't need to be another virtual world; the always present alternative to Second Life, or any other economic choice, is to do without. The vast bulk of the people that try Second Life choose "not using Second Life" over "using Second Life".
Kaneva has some nice light and shadow effects, I'm noticing at the moment on the other monitor; someone is dancing, and their avatar's leg is moving in out of a beam of light which is lighting up their leg and or casting shadows in an impressively realistic and nice looking way. Kaneva is said to have some outdoor areas with custom buildings now, although I couldn't tell where they are just now.
LL is bringing up Havoc again, surely they wouldn't mention that, after years of it being a sore subject, a condition which dragged on for so long it went beyond being a sore subject into the realm of comedy, unless there was actually some hope of seeing it implemented before too awfully long. Or am I being Charlie Brown thinking that Lucy couldn't possibly be so cruel as to pull the football away yet again?
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So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them.
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http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03.
Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard, Robin, and Ryan
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Peggy Paperdoll
A Brat
Join date: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 4,383
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08-25-2007 21:15
From: Jamay Greene However, SL will never be perfectly stable. Never. I do wonder about people who insist that the existing system be perfected before any new features are introduced. Is it a fear of bugs or a fear of obsolescence? I really don't think us "whiners" are expecting or demanding a perfect system before added features. But when added features take priority over broken features it sure causes dissatisfaction among the peons. I can't count the broken features that worked at one time and now don't since I came to SL. Way too many.........and they still are broken. What use is it to add a new, fancy feature for us to play with when it breaks something else that we also play with. And for us who have experienced features being added, knowing that this new feature LL has given us will likely one day be broken when some yet unknown feature is added. It makes no sense at all. And it will not work to LL's advantage in the long run.
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Dnate Mars
Lost
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,309
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08-25-2007 21:53
From: Tristin Mikazuki For startes SL doesnt have any competors anywhere There and Keneva are just a joke. Lag,40k online limit,PayPal being screwed, Inventory loss, NO CUSTOMER service, crashes both client side and server side...well the list can go on a VERY long time lol Ya SL is a broken toy. Saying SL isnt broken ya gotta have your head in the sand or be REALLY new to the net lol
O and stacking the fix code on top of the broken..ya like thats a good job LOL There is a joke, but they do have hoverboards. I would also disagree with some of your other statements too. Paypal works just fine for me, better then my CC ever did. I have yet to lose anything in inventory and I have had customer service. They have also gone to 24/7 support, so they are still improving it. Is SL perfect? No, it is not. But nothing really is. Windows still crashes. Web servers go down. I have crashed every single app that I have on my PC and Mac many times. What it comes down to is what you want to see. You can see the bad, you can see the crash here and there, the failure to rez, the down time, the ticket that you feel was not responded to quick enough. You will of course see SL as a broken toy. Or you can see the uptime, the teleports that work, the millions of L$ transactions that work every day, and the amazing building, textures, and scripts all over the place that make SL great. You will see something that is an amazing product. It all depends on what you really want to see. I am very hopeful that the rumors that I have heard are true and these improvements are just around the corner. We have be disappointed in the past when things said they were to be released and nothing ever came. I guess time will tell.
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2k Suisei
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Join date: 9 Nov 2006
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08-25-2007 22:05
From: Breeze Winnfield Hard to keep from laughing at a post stating that sculpties are essential to the growth SL. Just how is an out side of SL program created texture that replaces inworld building skills 'essential'?? It's essential because it means we don't have to be logged into a broken Second Life to build content.
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SuezanneC Baskerville
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Join date: 22 Dec 2003
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08-25-2007 22:51
From: 2k Suisei It's essential because it means we don't have to be logged into a broken Second Life to build content. Maybe as Hipihi progresses we will be able to create SL prim creations there for use in SL.
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So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them.
I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to
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http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03.
Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard, Robin, and Ryan
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Malachi Petunia
Gentle Miscreant
Join date: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 3,414
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08-25-2007 23:07
In much the same way that "SL will be dead in a month" predictions incite ridicule, "We are going to release Havok/Mono/Stability/Support Real Soon Now" should garner the same level of skepticism. It would be nice, but I'll believe it when I see it. Oh, and that long promised permissions system overhaul. 
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Osgeld Barmy
Registered User
Join date: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 3,336
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08-25-2007 23:27
im not going to hold my breath
havoc upgrades was a tired joke when i joined
mono is almost a year late with no stated progress
i couldnt play with sculpties because i couldnt upload a texture in over a month
ive lost all kinds of stuff in inventory, and have actually gotten a few back
the performance of the land i used to own was utterly pathetic, completely empty sim, constant yo-yo's, script speed measured in seconds per instructions, and a crash least once a week
i only started enjoying it again once i shed my monetary obligations, knowing i wasnt paying for this level of crap made me feel better
and so what, i have to work in a sandbox ... i had to anyways
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Peggy Paperdoll
A Brat
Join date: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 4,383
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08-25-2007 23:43
What really matters is that LL has lost most (if not all) it's credibility with more than just a minority of it's user base. They've made promises that they have not kept (intentional or otherwise......makes no difference). They've told us things were looking up and a bright future is on the horizon......yet a seemingly simple grid maintenance procedure all but brought the system down for almost two days. They race to impliment a voice feature that, according to LL, was something the whole community was begging for........but everyone I know hasn't shown the slightest interest in it. (Not to mention that it does not appear to work as advertised). They tell us at the beginning of May (this year) that by the end of that month we will all be age verified........that has sort of been lost in the deafing silence since that initial announcement.
I don't predict SL's failure in the next month (or few). What I do predict is that when (not if..........when) a competitive world is launched SL will lose a substainial number of it's base. The competition does not have to have everything that SL has........just a stable, scalable system that has the most desirable features of SL for the majority of the users. And, sorry to say, but the majority of the users could not care less abut sculpties, windlight, voice, a new scripting language...........they want a place where they can come, play, socialize, build a simple place or thing to play with, and to shop. They want places to visit and explore. They want what they have purchased or obtained in the game to be kept safe (I'm talking about lost inventory here). They want help when they need it.......in game help (not email help). They want griefers (or disrupters) kept at bay. In short, they only want to have fun...........not having to relog, reboot, when the game gets unplayable. A few problems most can handle without even a bad thought.......but constant problems will drive them away.
So call me a predicter of dire consequences if you want. That is only true if LL does not change their priorities very quickly. Once the competition gets here it will be too late.
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Malachi Petunia
Gentle Miscreant
Join date: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 3,414
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optimisim from 2005
08-26-2007 00:25
From: the real me To: philip, robin Date: May 2005 ... Linden Lab, when things are this broken, the only thing that you can do to stem the irritation and alienation of the playerbase is to be broadly open with your customers. Your customers will forgive a lot and even be patient if they know what to expect and when. I'm sure you have internal development milestones, schedule hits and misses and other information. Be forthcoming and your devoted players will stay. Continue having these "heavy load" issues with no explanation ("heavy load" is not an explanation) and no articulated plan and you'll be able to feel the wave of attrition. ... You need to look beyond the current "wisdom" that says "nothing is to be disclosed, ever". You've consistently shown yourselves to be different than other technology companies. It is time to be different again. From: philip To: me Date: The next day Actually we are gunning to fix the database/login load and simulator low FPS lag in the next incremental release (1.7). I'd agree that 7-10 months is WAY too long to wait for fixes. We don't expect 2.0 to solve lag and scaling problems - we expect 1.x to. We want to be moving forward with 2.0 on look and capabilities. SL is growing so fast now that we don't have that much time to improve the scalability of the core systems. Hence the difference in communication. best, Philip -------------------------- note: My letter was abbreviated for concision with as little damage to the substance as possible - Philip's response is quoted in its entirety.
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Tegg Bode
FrootLoop Roo Overlord
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,707
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08-26-2007 02:25
From: Breeze Winnfield Hard to keep from laughing at a post stating that sculpties are essential to the growth SL. Just how is an out side of SL program created texture that replaces inworld building skills 'essential'?? Hmm, so you are blaming sculpies for our current issues?
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Tegg Bode
FrootLoop Roo Overlord
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
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08-26-2007 02:26
From: SuezanneC Baskerville Maybe as Hipihi progresses we will be able to create SL prim creations there for use in SL. Does HiPi sell land yet?
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Free Waterside & Roadside Vehicle Rez Platform, Desire (88, 17, 107)
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Talarus Luan
Ancient Archaean Dragon
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 4,831
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08-26-2007 02:51
From: Zaphod Kotobide Where have they gone? Where do you get your numbers from? Where, exactly, is that "somewhere else"? At this point, in terms of what Second Life is, there isn't "Somewhere Else" just yet. That's kinda the point. Same place you and everyone else does.. the login screen. 9.1 million accounts 1.6 million accounts logged onto at least ONCE in the last 60 days 7.5 million accounts left in the dustbin Where have they gone? Not here, that's for frelling *certain*, pal. There's no place else that is "what Second Life is"? Maybe. Depends on what one gets out of Second Life to begin with, doesn't it? The people behind those 7.5 million accounts found that "Somewhere Else" gave them something SL couldn't. That's the REAL point.
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