AR, is there a point?

The issue isn't telling on them, it's who your telling.

If I owned a sim and someone griefed you there and you whent to LL isnted of me I would ban you.

Why? I would want to know about it, certainly, because I'd want to ban them from the sim regardless of what, if anything, LL did about it, but why on earth do you object to people ARing griefers on your sim?

Last time we had some griefers, the tenant called me over to get rid of them and their junk and then I estate banned them. Then we both ARd them. What's wrong with that?

Yeah, I know people can make alts easily enough, but LL can be quite good at tracing the source, if the griefer is stupid enough (and a lot are.. sort of goes with the territory), which can lead to machine bans and the like. And even if it doesn't, if someone thus inconveniences me and my tenants, I'll do what little I can to inconvenience them in return, even if it's only by making them create a new account and re-equip its inventory.

If I see someone violating the TOS/CS, I might AR. (^_^)

If not, I don't. (^_^)

Half the time, the responding Linden lands on my head. (=_=)

Yeah, I've only AR'd twice since '06 myself. I think it has alot to do with the types of people that people hang out with. If one finds themself ARing or getting AR'd alot, then perhaps they should find a better class of people to hang out with. Might be an age issue, as I'm old school these days.

oh my, I would hope that you would have that posted in your Covenant.

The only time I've been tempted to file an AR was a case of fairly blatant race discrimination. A mall on Isle of Glorious Squalor (not its real name folks) had a lease that said it was for Japanese only. The mall pretty much rented to all customers otherwise. Malls tend to be public accomodations. I haven't known mall owners to be too picky. I translated the lease into English and found out that it worked as a commission rather than a straight L rental. I lost my interest and stopped the process.

Had the lease terms been different, I would have applied to rent, kept an electronic paper trail and either would have ended up either with a store or had a ton of "paperwork" to present to Linden Labs for an AR.

Linden Labs (and probably its computers) are in California. Doesn't Second Life run at least to some extent by the laws of the United States? I'm not sure of any of this.

And if you aren't on to handle the issue yourself? Unless you're a machine, you gotta sleep sometime. Or have a real life of some sorts. (Unless you're a Linden owned asset server.. get back to work and stop sleeping on the job!)

I can understand wanting to know about issues, so you can ban the griefer to prevent further issues, but to ban the victim? Who might not know to contact you? Or might not even know that you have tools to do anything to help? That's one loooongg stretch of bad road.

Their land, their rules. Not to mention that LL doesn't get involved in resident to resident disputes. Your AR would have vanished into a black hole.

LL will take action against explicit displays of racial hatred...I mean, like someone putting up gas chambers on their land, plastering the place with swastikas, and declaring Death To All Jews. "Japanese customers only" doesn't fall into this category.

this has been my experience... the crowds I hang out with, generally laid back, low drama, high acceptence/tolerance, and willing to politely ask people not to be obnoxious....

none of my regular hangouts was ever carpet bombed by griefers (though I did tp into a few of those while randomly exploring, but they were usually so far along by the time I got that that LL was already cleaning it up)

then again I don't own a single scrap of land, so never have to worry about neighbor issues (although I taught more than a few people how to put up mega prim one way walls)

And people wonder why AR's are so often "ignored" by LL. I would guess AR's for situations like this far out number AR's for really disruptive, distructive issues. The people submitting the AR's need to know what really warrants one and what is merely some idiotic jerk-off saying to doing things that you don't like. If people would only AR for truely ARable offences the load on the people tasked to resolve the issues would be such that proper responses and actions could be taken in a timely manner. Some people are AR happy..........those are the ones who slow the program down and/or make difficult for real issues to be taken care of.

I've AR'd a few times (probably less than 5 times). Each AR has been taken care of quite quickly.......a couple a little longer than I would have liked but it sure wasn't hours. Griefing are what all my AR's were about..........so maybe it's the offense that made my issues so quickly responded to. I've never AR'd for anyone encroaching, saying something offensive to me, peeking under my skirt or through my windows, refusing to leave my land, carrying a sign I don't like..........that crap just clogs up the system. And causes a few legitamate AR's to be overlooked to deleted.........maybe more than just a few even.

To the question of the thread. Yes there is a point. AR's are necessary. AR's do serve a purpose. AR's can work. But we, as the users of the AR system, need to limit the use to truly legitamate issues. ARing to whine to LL about something you don't like or think is wrong are more often than not illegitamate reasons. And as for the land owner being the one to issue the AR for you.......BS. I'm not going to wait around for some "King/Queen" of some parcel or estate to take care of what ever it is that I think needs taking care of. Ban me............I won't AR you but I'll damn sure do what I can to discourage others from renting from you.

Well ARs they rarely do anything about, certainly never in a faster timescale than I could.

*speechless*

I just don't understand your attitude, Nyx. I would be annoyed, certainly, if one of my tenants ARd another tenant over the sort of inter-neighbour dispute that sometimes leads to ARs on the Mainland instead of asking me to try to resolve the situation well before it got to that stage, but, apart from that, what do you say is the objection? Yes, I want to know about any problems, so I can take what seem to me appropriate steps, but that's as well as, rather than instead of, whatever LL may or may not do about things.

Now, in your case, I can understand wanting to know. You're a good landlord who wants to just settle things peacefully. Also, an AR is kind of like the "file" kept by the police. It allows them to say, "X has done this one too many times. It's time for the ban-hammer."

Of course, I'm not an AR happy bug-a-bear. Come to think of it, I don't recall doing more than 1 AR this year and that was at the Relay for Life, where some 'tard decided to drop some definitely not PG imaged prims down on the track. Sure, the RoL staff could clean it up (and did), but the 'tard needed a serious time-out for it.

Peggy, I did my homework and actually had a look at the terms of service. Blatant race discrimination in writing is actually ARable, because posting illegal content to Second Life is a violation of the terms of service and Second Life indeed runs under the laws of the State of California.

If the mall owners wanted to put the whole document in Japanese and have a form that had to be filled in online and which only asked for things which Japanese citizens could supply, then that might be legal, but saying in Enlgish: "For Japanese Only" is another story.

As I said, I never submitted the AR, but had I wanted to rent in the beautiful and empty mall, and found myself refused only because I am American and could prove it. I think an AR is appropriate.

I don't think a contract that contains illegal terms is itself illegal. It would make it hard to publish law books if that was the case.

I was referring to the "he said my avi is ugly", "she told me my bling was wrecking her experience", "my landlord booted me off my the land I was renting'............those type of AR's. I never said not to AR a legitamate offense........though some things, in my opinion, even if offensive, are somthing I'd not AR. Some jerk with his brand new sculpty penis walking around in a PG area I probably not AR even though I know it's ARable. It's offensive as hell to me......but easy to ignore. Same jerk spamming the area with obscenities with he penis hanging out...........I'd AR in a hearbeat. There are many things you can technically AR.........and many of those will be way down on the priority list for the people responsible to fix it. ARing a nake avi in a PG sim will likely not get a quick response........that same avi griefing will. That's all I was trying to say

That and the people who do AR for someone IMing them "Hey, cutie, want to f***?" Mute takes care of stuff like that......much more effectively than an AR.

I only file an AR if I think it will actually make a difference. That has been exactly once in almost three years (though it was two ARs for two avatars contributing to one incident). Two avatars came to my club to be intentionally rude and abusive to guests, and when I asked them to stop and leave, they said they'd rather continue abusing everyone so that they would be banned. What was unusual is that they were avatars that had existed for several years and had Payment Info on File. Since they actually cared about the accounts and were long-term users, I felt that receiving some sort of discipline might actually be meaningful to them. Plus I had a whole club full of people to do the AR (knowing that Linden Lab only responds to ARs if there are multiple complainants).

I figure it's pointless to do ARs when there aren't going to be multiple ARs filed (because Linden Lab doesn't respond to the seriousness of the violation, only the volume of ARs). If it's a new account with no payment info on file, I'm guessing the the person probably isn't sticking around long anyway (or are throwaway alt accounts), and will probably never know that Linden Lab did discipline them. So there's no point to ARing those.

Plus, writing a coherent AR on which Linden Lab can act, if it chooses to, is time-consuming on my part. It takes more than a minor annoyance from a TOS violation to motivate me to go to the trouble. If it takes me more time to write the AR than the actual griefing lasted, it's probably not worth it. Especially considering the fact that Linden Lab gives no feedback on whether the AR was even actually read; that really lowers my motivation to file one.

Abuse Reporting is not a land management issue, it's a community management issue which I guess some people don't get. If someone is not abiding by the terms of service and community guidelines, they need to be addressed in a manner which holds them accountable to the community as a whole, not just one particular piece of land and its owner. If necessary, they need to have access to the grid on their account suspended or banned. That doesn't mean you shouldn't report them to the land owner as well, but reporting them to the land owner alone isn't enough if what they are doing is prohibited by Linden Lab. This is the way it works in other virtual world communities such as MMORPG's and MMOG's. In those platforms members of the community don't even have the tools to take the kind direct action that land owners in SL can which I guess is where the confusion comes from in SL.

Of course as long as Linden Lab both allows free accounts and doesn't require payment information on file there is little that it can do to address experienced repeat offenders from coming back again and again on new free accounts but then neither can a land owner. That is of course an entirely different issue though.

so I guess you're going to ignore my question Nyx?
do you think that a person responsible for making a rule, should also be the person responsible for enforcing it? namely LL and their ToS/CS/etc ?

I have only used the AR option once in three years. That time was a griefer on a roleplay sim filling it with particles and the owner offline. I must say a Linden arrived within minutes and took care of it.

I do think some people over use the system, I notice even on the Zyngo thread people are being advised to AR all machines even though LL have stated they are allowed. I can really imagine how many ARs the Lindens have to deal with each week and would make the system far better if only used when required, but you will always get the type that run around reporting anything they personally don't like clogging up the system for those that genuinely need assistance.

Why?

This assumes a control of others that is a bit extreme. I dislike the idea of anyone telling others who they can talk to. Also, if you are not on your land at the time, what can you do?

If anyone is harassed on my land, I *hope* they AR it and tell me both. But I can't *make* them.

That said, you have the privilege of banning anyone from your private parcel for any reason you wish.

The problem with that is that, as the sim owner, you don't have the power to do much, whereas LL has all the power there is. All you can do is ban a person from your land which isn't anything of any consequence.