English as a Second Language

I am not surprised by the many comments that are generated by the standard of English that is written and spoken in sl. Truth be told, there are many levels of the language that are being employed. Some people even come to sl to learn English - and I have taught a few of them some valuable and persuasive words. But, are we seeing a decline in the language we use on sl? Should we comment on the need for revision and editing of a thread? What standards do you apply to your own skills? Can you discern nationality or region by the informal or formal level of English language being used (I often can - but don't challenge me to do so). What does the curve of fluency (from superb grasp of the language to a failure to communicate) tell us about the social dynamics of our world? My career is focussed on the literary arts so I do believe that I have some qualification to discuss or critique language skills but do I have a right to correct grammar - or should I?
I might get taken apart for starting this thread but ... let's see what people think.
By the way, it's snowing outside. Jig.

These forums are not the place to learn English.
Here we communicate as best we can about issues related to SL.

If we pick up good or bad English in the process, that's just a by-product.

I always try to use reasonably good English (British English!) on the forums.
I do use more shorthand in chat in-world, though, like 'U' instead of you etc.

Whether I write in Norwegian or English, I always try to use correct spelling/grammar. Inworld that is often a lost cause - being a slow typist trying to keep up with conversation.

As for commenting on the spelling/grammar of others, I try to avoid doing so unless the text is hard to understand. I do get more annoyed with text that imply "lazyness" than the ones where it seems obvious the writer either struggles with spelling/grammar or just doesn't know the language well. Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference, sometimes it is obvious.

Some places I go to there is chat in several languages going on at the same time. Sometimes I chip in with a bit of Welsh to confuse people more. But my Welsh isn't very good and it can get difficult trying to look up the word you want while you're in chat!

I don't correct grammar unless someone is being a dick and corrects mine and then makes their own mistake.

I have met many people whose second language is English, I cringe at times when I see people correcting people whose first language obviously isn't English, how many of them can speak a second language that well?

Correcting someone's grammar belittles them, makes them afraid to express themself, I don't think this is a good forum to engage in that sort of activity.

Here I try to keep it fairly correct.When I get a red line from the American spell check I fiddle
until I get it right.I find it fun.apologize correct,apologise red lined LOL.In world I keep it simple for speed and because there are so many using English as a second language.

in general i don`t give a damn if my text has a typo or just spelling erros, i`d like to see those spelling wankers who see the need to correct every one on every typo and then bitch when they are being corrected, type and speak fluent dutch

on occasions i take notice about what i type to the length of checking words with http://dictionary.reference.com/ just so i don`t look like a complete moron, specially the never used long words

edit:
just to add then when some one types in such a manner that it just gives an instant headache, i do then to make a joke or 2

Totally agree.
As a natural English speaking Brit I have always held the belief that despite English being one of the most widely spoken languages in the world and my beloved mother tongue, it is flawed, overly complex, riddled with nonsensical inconsistencies, petty and illogical.

I feel sorry for anyone who learns it as a second language and admire them for their fortitude and skill.

Metal

Somewhat.

Certain words used give away whether they're American or European. Even the sentence structure can be a give away.

And if they say "Yinz" I know where you're from

If people indicated or admitted that English was not their first language I would have more patience with them - but despite several opportunities to do so lots of SL denizens omit their nationalities or refuse to state them. So I class them together with the dumb people for whom English is a first language, in which they are unable to express themselves adequately.

I don't really want to interact with dumb people. On the forums you can't choose who reads your posts, so I can't be sure to what extent people won't understand me (sorry for the double negative by the way) and I will react to those posts which are evidently unable to respond sensibly, although I have found that it tends to be over-emotional responses that cause trouble rather than a lack of logical comprehension.

It is easier inworld. Those that fail to respond quickly and sensibly to my provocations can be left behind, and I very rarely voluntarily communicate with anyone unable to comprehend me, as I read profiles and generally ignore those who don't state that English is their language.

Sorry all you brilliant foreigners - but if you can't communicate your brilliance to me . . .

Pep (Shwmai Conifer - although I am better with French as my second language)

I admire anyone who is trying to learn English as a second language. It's not easy and some rules/concepts of the language is a pain to figure out. Make and do being the two I've seen most often confused. I spent a lot of time in high school explaining to exchange students that we do homework... teachers make it.

I can only claim to know curse words in other languages. And I'm horrible about butchering the English language as it is.

Now, I have little tolerance for poorly written things that aren't attempts at learning. If the person is a native speaker, I do expect them to understand the use of the period. I don't mind spelling errors and grammar but, for the love of all that is holy, use the period. It's a life saving tool!

I vote that the native English speakers should be forced to read what they wrote.. out loud. Over using certain punctuation leads to hyperventilation, while lack of them leads to death from being unable to breath.

If I find something written by a native speaker grammatically unintelligible, I simply don't reply to it. Someone who understands it can take it on.

I may not know what the heck they are saying, but I can be reasonably sure it's not a question about their grammar.

Wow... it was 80 degrees F here today... the internet is amazing.

I don't think you can stereotype grammatical errors to a certain nationality, but when writing is flooding with an accent including nonstandard English words, it gets me fuming. When it becomes difficult to read, you know there's a comedian on the other end, probably not even speaking the accent he or she is writing. It's all fun and games until no one can understand what you're writing. I think a great thing about the internet is you can assume any identity if you have enough skill, and it's fun to step out of your shoes once in a while, but sometimes the joke gets old.

I only correct someone if they're already very accomplished and I know them to be a non native speaker - and the mistake is obvious or confusing, something that would be a stumbling block in an English speaking job interview. At that level most people appreciate it because they want to master the langauge and not just get by in it (and I explain that when I correct, which happens maybe once a year or so). I guess it also depends on the social setting as well.

Second Life was created by Linden Lab, an America company. In America, we speak English, although it may not be quite the Queen's English. People who post to the forums in anything other than one of International forums should speak English if they want to be understood. If a person feels they need to post here but doesn't speak English that well, that's totally fine. Do the best you can, we'll try to figure it out. What burns people's chaps is when people who should know how to speak English properly, purposefully obfuscate what they're saying in an attempt to be "hip"? "cool?" "modern"?. I'm not sure. People make typos and grammatical errors. An English major could probably tear this post apart. The thing is, people get annoyed (or worse) when it's done on purpose (or out of perceived laziness or lack of education).

--Hugsy

I’ve had comments on my spelling, and that made me use “(English isn’t my #1 language)” more often if I reply here.

I don’t go around and hide it inworld, I have it in my profile. I don’t think anyone can demand that all non-English users of SL state it in their profile. But I agree that it’s practical to have it there.

I get more trouble reading an endless line without Capitals and punctuation, than with small spelling errors like “newer” instead of “never”.
And chat speak… hum, it is really looking bad sometimes. I am one of those who avoid it inworld, but I use LOL and TY. If I will appear polite, I type “Thank you” in full instead of TY.

I’ve read some American authors like Stephen King, and he use the American English, not British English. It makes me use both BrE and AmE forms of grammar, figures of speech and word choice in the same post. I’m not noticing the difference.
Someone might think that’s sloppy but I don’t think they have a problem reading and understanding it?

Marianne - you are a sparkling example of someone for whom English is not the first language but who cares enough about your communication to take time about it and I endorse everything you have said. I wish all the posters here (English as a first OR second language) would be so considerate of their audience - and potential helpers.

Pep (I view poorly presented posts as insulting to their readers)

I mentioned this before; I can handle L33T speak in common conversation, even if I do hate it. If I am attending a business meeting in SL, though, I would certainly expect all the attendees to use their best English. I understand completely that English isn't everyone's first language, but I'm fairly irritated when someone says "sry im not a native english speaker, ruok w/that LOL," especially in a "formal" situation like a business meeting.

I prefer well-presented and correctly spelled English when I communicate, and try to keep my posts as 'correct' as possible. I usually write in this style whether in email, prose, SMS or chat. I'm aware that for some it might appear painfully formal. Written communication loses so many levels of nuance compared to spoken - tone, facial expressions, body language and more - that obfuscating it further with poor English risks losing all meaning.

I find poor English here distracting and annoying, and there are some posts I'll refuse to read. Poor spelling is a distraction, but it isn't as likely to keep me from reading a post as ALL IN CAPS, 1337 (and its bastard child, txtspk), lack of punctuation and HUGE paragraphs.

As a reasonable typist the muscle memory for a word like 'you' is so ingrained that stopping and typing 'u' instead would slow me down. I occasionally use 'cos' for 'because' and 'tho' for 'though' in chat, partly for speed and partly because in my accent 'cos' is very common usage. The occasional typo gets past the best speller, especially in chat. In other written communication, where one can take the time to read and even spellcheck, it's more annoying.

I can usually tell ESL speakers/writers from those who simply write English badly. I rarely criticise or correct them - if my French/German/Japanese was as good as their English I'd be delighted. I occasionally apologise and give up on the conversation if it's clear that we're both struggling too much to get anything out of it. I will correct someone I know if I think they'll benefit from improving their English as a result. Even then, I keep it to a polite aside or IM.

*bump*

The things that usually end up making a post unintelligible to me aren't spelling or grammar errors either but things that have nothing to do with how well or how bad you speak a particular language and are just the result of laziness and/or simply not caring.

Anyone can write in paragraphs, include very basic punctuation, cap the first letter of a new sentence (and "I" as well), not type in "MiXeD cApS", use "you" instead of "u" or otherwise make an effort to make a block of text easier to read.

I am purposely staying out of this thread so that people can comment without being interrupted by me but I wonder of many (or most) of teh erros we see may come from unfamiliarity with the actual "tools" of communication - the keyboard - and the "stream of consciousness" we submit to when we type emails and suchlike.
By the way, I don't have post secondary or even much of a pre-secondary) education (I hated school with a passion) but I think I can communicate quite ably. Reading, reading, reading is the key to learning English skills.

English is my second language (well, third, really) and I know the hardship involved in having to learn a new language (not sitting in a classroom, but by having to sink or swim in total immersion in a new language.)

It's not that hard to tell someone who is attempting to use a foreign language as best as they can from someone who's just plain lazy.

I can't think of a single language that includes ,,, anywhere. Is it really that hard to spell out "you" when you're not trying to keep up with a real-time conversation? Even if you are utterly dyslexic you know how the Enter key works to create a line break. Typos happen but I've seen posts that seem to consist entirely of typos.

All that said, I've seen comments made by those who consider themselves to be utterly brilliant that make me wonder if they ought to lay off the booze while trying to compose a sentence.

In the end, if a post makes your eyeballs bleed, it is your choice to move on to something else. Chances are that the poster knows their limitations and doesn't need that pointed out ad nauseum.

Just because LL is an American company does not mean that users need perfect English to participate or that English-speaking people can feel more entitled to use these forums. Given their efforts to make the place more accessible to those using other languages, I doubt LL are as elitist as some comments I've seen here.

QFT

LISP

Pep (A purpose-specific computer programming language)