What have LL done to upset the community in the past?
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FD Spark
Prim & Texture Doodler
Join date: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 4,697
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11-07-2008 16:33
From: Briana Dawson There was no charging money for Lindens in 2003.
There was a loophole for getting more Linden and that was to sign up an alt, pay for 1 month, and list yourself as a reference, thus receiving the 3,000L referral bonus. This was i think the initial primary use of alts in SL - a source of money.
Prim taxes were cool.
Let us say you were down to 30L and needed $500L to buy something. Just take off 50 prims worth of jewelry and boo-yah, 500L returned to you for spending.
But what really made me stop trusting SL was this OpenSpace price hike...too shady. I left in 2004 when they were starting too the first time. Or maybe I am getting There confused was in beta in both places. There was charging for there money but I thought SL was too. I didn't understand many things in 2003 and 2004. I was very lonely, lost and confused Resident at the time and still was for years even after FD was born but things got bit better as far as Friends and creating but there was a lot I didn't understand back then.
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Felix Oxide
Registered User
Join date: 6 Oct 2006
Posts: 655
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11-07-2008 19:05
From: Travis Lambert Here's my two cents, fwiw:
Prior to 2005, Second Life was an extremely tiny place. Contrasted with today, its like comparing a small village to a whole country.
Back then, Lindens were an active part of the community. Lindens actively participated in the forums along with us, and attended our events along with us. In many ways, there was this pervasive feeling that we were all in this together, and playing on the same team. Feedback to/from Linden was direct and instantaneous. There were still plenty of things to complain about, and decisions made that many disagreed with. But we had a very personal, and open dialog with them.
That changed as the population in SL exploded - and as the ratio of Lindens to Residents decreased, so did our collective relationship with them. Many policy changes set the stage, but the final decisions that effectively killed direct resident-to-Linden interaction on a personal level culmunated with the closure of the old General Forums, and the cancellation of Live Help. Many oldbie players were hurt or offended by this transition, which solidified their distrust of many of their policies going forward through today.
Personally, I think its unfair to say that 'Lindens don't care about residents.' Of course they do. I believe that most Lindens are very passionate about Second Life, and if given a magic wand that would make everyone happy, they'd cast it without a second thought.
IMHO - its not that they don't care - its that the world has become too large for Linden to be fully aware of all the day-to-day issues that affect their residents using their current methodology. When feedback is requested there are so many diverse opinions it becomes difficult to seperate the signal from the noise, and they often seem to make decisions based upon faulty or insufficient information. When resident outrage is sufficient, they often make a better go of it the second time - but for some its too little too late. Heh, I use to gush like a fanboy when I would spot a Linden inworld back then.  |
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Sweetcandie Mifflin
Registered User
Join date: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 8
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11-07-2008 19:42
I've been reading the fourms for a while and thought i'd post on this one.
We have had ups and downs. We had a rate system where we could rate others.
Took that away . Our traffic gone, New Members got 512M land .Lost that because others
stood by waiting to buy the land and rasie the prices. I think greed took over second life and not all the Lindens fault . I think what hurt everyone was the free things that was set free and drove most out. Now the OpenSpace sim which i "had" one also. As for myself being here over 4 years with alot of money spent in second life .
I'm just about done . I never had a free account and payed my way .
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Rhaorth Antonelli
Registered User
Join date: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 7,425
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11-07-2008 20:46
I wonder how many people miss the dwell
I got a small amount of lindens from dwell just from me and a couple friends hanging out at my place (my home, did not have the store then hehe)
the it went poof (dwell, not my home LOL)
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Susie Boffin
Certified Nutcase
Join date: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,151
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11-07-2008 21:09
From: Travis Lambert Here's my two cents, fwiw:
Prior to 2005, Second Life was an extremely tiny place. Contrasted with today, its like comparing a small village to a whole country.
Back then, Lindens were an active part of the community. Lindens actively participated in the forums along with us, and attended our events along with us. In many ways, there was this pervasive feeling that we were all in this together, and playing on the same team. Feedback to/from Linden was direct and instantaneous. There were still plenty of things to complain about, and decisions made that many disagreed with. But we had a very personal, and open dialog with them.
That changed as the population in SL exploded - and as the ratio of Lindens to Residents decreased, so did our collective relationship with them. Many policy changes set the stage, but the final decisions that effectively killed direct resident-to-Linden interaction on a personal level culmunated with the closure of the old General Forums, and the cancellation of Live Help. Many oldbie players were hurt or offended by this transition, which solidified their distrust of many of their policies going forward through today.
Personally, I think its unfair to say that 'Lindens don't care about residents.' Of course they do. I believe that most Lindens are very passionate about Second Life, and if given a magic wand that would make everyone happy, they'd cast it without a second thought.
IMHO - its not that they don't care - its that the world has become too large for Linden to be fully aware of all the day-to-day issues that affect their residents using their current methodology. When feedback is requested there are so many diverse opinions it becomes difficult to seperate the signal from the noise, and they often seem to make decisions based upon faulty or insufficient information. When resident outrage is sufficient, they often make a better go of it the second time - but for some its too little too late. Hi travis. I didn't have too may problems with LL decisions until they decided to ban ageplay. I didn't even know what ageplay was until they banned it. Posting pics of real life child porn on SL is one thing that has always been illegal but to ban what consenting adults do in SL is quite another thing. I am in no way saying that ageplay is cool, now that I know what it is, but I think that LL has gone too far in banning what ADULTS do here whatever they do. I have enjoyed my years on SL but now it seems that we are now being spied upon to detect any hint of misconduct. This is not my idea of an adult community.
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Porky Gorky
Temperamentalalistical
Join date: 25 May 2004
Posts: 1,414
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11-08-2008 05:45
From: Rhaorth Antonelli I wonder how many people miss the dwell
I got a small amount of lindens from dwell just from me and a couple friends hanging out at my place (my home, did not have the store then hehe)
the it went poof (dwell, not my home LOL) I already had a good source of income by the time they abolished dwell so wasn’t fussed really, but I remember a lot of people were up-in-arms over it. The cost implications of removing dwell compared to the recent OS debacle seem vastly different. I think a few years ago the percentage of users that had a lot of money tied up in the game was far smaller. So changes could happen and they only seriously affected a small percentage of the overall population or only cost the majority of the population an insignificant amount (dwell, ratings) Nowadays I think a much higher percentage of users have allot more money invested in SL. So the implications of changing a particular policy are far greater. I think this is something that LL needs to recognise. |
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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11-08-2008 07:35
From: Rhaorth Antonelli I wonder how many people miss the dwell Getting rid of dwell was supposed to kill camping, but instead it killed a lot of cool builds people had made to attract visitors, and didn't do a damn thing to kill campers. |
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Kidd Krasner
Registered User
Join date: 1 Jan 2007
Posts: 1,938
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11-08-2008 10:12
From: Susie Boffin
I have enjoyed my years on SL but now it seems that we are now being spied upon to detect any hint of misconduct. This is not my idea of an adult community.
Let's not open up that can of worms too much. However, it was symptomatic of a more general problem. They would ban something, but be imprecise about it, causing huge amounts of confusion among both members and their own staff. People might file abuse reports because a kid was at a clothing story in a mature sim, or at an animation shop that sold both PG and X rated animations. Similarly, with gambling. We might see some LL staff saying that a certain device is ok, while others treat it as a violation. And obviously, the latest openspace debacle has them saying that people were abusing openspace sims in ways that they never clearly said were abuse. I don't expect them to define policies with mathematical precision and completeness. But I do expect them to explicitly acknowledge the gray areas and identify a fair, preferably open process for dealing with them. And most importantly, I don't want them to engage in hypocritical revisionism. (Sexual ageplay was always against the rules, we're just saying so now. Clubs on openspace sims was always an abuse, we're just saying so now....) |
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Patasha Marikh
Here to watch the show
Join date: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 294
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11-08-2008 11:10
I miss update Wednesdays. Everyone hanging out on beta for 4 to 8.. or 14 hours. Relaxing until someone shouted "Main's Up." The the 30 minute log on time while 10,000 people tried to connect simultaneously to the main grid.
I miss first land.. sure it was abused, isn't everything? But it's like your first apartment when you leave home, they were quirky and cramped it was yours.
Broadly Offensive was annoying. Especially since I make adult animations and I couldn't get a straight answer on if fisting or violent S&M animations would be considered BO.
The disappearance of the Lindens. I know they can't be everywhere, but how about anywhere? One of my fondest memories is of Danni Moanalo (RIP) orbiting a Linden during one of her ummm.. feminist empowerment seminars on a gorean sim.
The forced updates after the "no more forced updates".
---things they got right-----
OMG I LOVE THE GRID NOW! When was the last "our service provider in Dallas..." outage?
The asset server is final stable. Too bad no one has money to go shopping with anymore.
Visual mutes! finally!
---things I wish for---
A graphics client that would give you the option to choose which textures to download rather than having to suck down everything in a mall randomly, I would like to have the option to not download any textures until I select the prims in the specific store I want to see. I so hate 5 minute res'ing in a big mall even with 64m draw distance.
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Ceka Cianci
SuperPremiumExcaliburAcc#
Join date: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 4,489
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11-08-2008 12:29
ya it's been a long time since there was any real major problems causing shutdowns or restarts of the grid.. thank god too cause now it gives us time to bitch about other things  |
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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11-08-2008 12:40
From: Patasha Marikh A graphics client that would give you the option to choose which textures to download rather than having to suck down everything in a mall randomly, A server that queued up objects to download based on their distance from you rather than based on the order they were rezzed in the sim. You know you can right-click on an unloaded texture and force it to the front of the queue? It's the objects themselves you can't force to the front, because until the sim sends you the object the client doesn't know it's there. I'd also like to be able to use my whole 150 GB hard drive for texture cache if I damn well want. |
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Void Singer
Int vSelf = Sing(void);
Join date: 24 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,973
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11-08-2008 17:05
From: Argent Stonecutter I'd also like to be able to use my whole 150 GB hard drive for texture cache if I damn well want. :  pits coke on the screen:: while in principle I don't disagree with that.... O M F G the whole 150gb? trying to never have to dowload a texture you've seen before there? lol, well I suppose it would reduce bandwidth requirements, but the content theft implications are.... scary...
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Blot Brickworks
The end of days
Join date: 28 Oct 2006
Posts: 1,076
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11-08-2008 17:21
For me it was when they stopped Transaction History in world.It was great ,you didn't have to go to the web site to get info.It was all there on the screen,more upfront, I loved it.Now I spend a lot of time out and on the site not on the game.
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Michelle Thurston
Registered User
Join date: 14 Jul 2006
Posts: 208
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11-08-2008 17:25
From: Nimue Jewell Dropping the price of full sims to $1000.
Mainland land glut. Counterpoint: Raising the price of full sims to $1675 Nov 2006. I thought people generally liked the price drop. I think the takehome message is Linden Labs can't make a move without pissing somebody off. |
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Aminom Marvin
Registered User
Join date: 31 Dec 2006
Posts: 520
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11-08-2008 17:57
Pretty much every change of any sort has angered customers, but not until the Openspace issue have they managed to anger almost all of their customers at the same time.
Age verification saw a great lot of general anger, but it fizzled when Linden eventually backtracked and turned it into something completely optional and so minor it became a non-issue. They are still able to tout "Look! We have tools customers can use to prevent minors from accessing adult content" for clueless MSM reporters.
Lack of performance, and bugginess in general in 2007 caused a lot of general anger, and resulted in the Openletter project. SL has improved immensely in many respects since that.
Voice chat angered a small segment who were worried about it for social reasons; that it would "ruin immersion" or, cause tons of lag (the lag issue later proved to be false.)
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Nimue Jewell
Unabashedly Leggy
Join date: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 1,745
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11-08-2008 18:39
From: Michelle Thurston Counterpoint: Raising the price of full sims to $1675 Nov 2006. I thought people generally liked the price drop.
I think the takehome message is Linden Labs can't make a move without pissing somebody off. I'm sure raising the price upset people too. I think those angry about the drop were people who had payed the higher price for estates, as their potential resale value on the island plummeted. And, if they were landlords, what they had to charge in hopes of recouping their purchase price in a timely fashion could be undercut by people buying at the lower price. I agree with your takehome message. |
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Michelle Thurston
Registered User
Join date: 14 Jul 2006
Posts: 208
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11-08-2008 19:01
From: Nimue Jewell I'm sure raising the price upset people too. I think those angry about the drop were people who had payed the higher price for estates, as their potential resale value on the island plummeted. And, if they were landlords, what they had to charge in hopes of recouping their purchase price in a timely fashion could be undercut by people buying at the lower price. I agree with your takehome message. The world itself was supposed to end (I had a similar post a few days ago where I could name five instances where people were /certain/ the game was about go to under due to a bad decision, new policy, or some other crisis) Know why they raised island prices? To 'level the playing field' for all the RL corporations allegedly looking to establish a presence. Linden Labs published statement was corps could pay more, so it was only fair to raise the price. People were livid. And not only because LL tipped off their favorite land barons that the price was about to go up and sell off the last few dozen islands secretly at the old rate. They did agree to hold off on the increase because the outcry suggested they sprang it too quickly (Notice a trend?) http://blog.secondlife.com/category/land/page/7/ the FAQ seems to be gone so I couldn't get the exact wording. Know why they lowered the prices? The corporations never came, and they needed the little old residents to keep buying islands. |
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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11-09-2008 03:36
From: Void Singer O M F G the whole 150gb? trying to never have to dowload a texture you've seen before there? Sure. Why the hell not? I have to cut my bandwidth down to 50 and STILL get packetloss on "bad days"... but I've got an almost empty 150 GB hard disk because that's the size of the cheapest hard disk I could buy to stick on my Wintendo. From: someone I suppose it would reduce bandwidth requirements, but the content theft implications are.... scary... You only think they're scary if you don't understand just how much protection textures currently have... cached or not. It would have just about zero impact on ripping textures, because it's so much easier to use a modified client, right-click on a prim, and select "save texture" from the pie menu. No, I don't know for certain there's any modified client with exactly that functionality out there, but I would be absolutely amazed if there weren't several with equivalent functions. It would take about 15 minutes work to implement. |
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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11-09-2008 03:39
From: Aminom Marvin Voice chat angered a small segment who were worried about it for social reasons; that it would "ruin immersion" or, cause tons of lag (the lag issue later proved to be false.) And in fact voice chat does cause major social problems, and does use network bandwidth, and some of us really don't have a lot of bandwidth left (no, I don't use streaming music or video either)... and for that matter we're running out of nerves for haughty pro-voice idiots to get on. |
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Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
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11-09-2008 04:12
From: Michelle Thurston Know why they lowered the prices? The corporations never came, and they needed the little old residents to keep buying islands. This is speculation. Zee said they dropped the price because setup costs had dropped to around three or four hundred dollars for Linden Lab and they wanted to pass that price saving onto their customers. |
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Nina Stepford
was lied to by LL
Join date: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 3,373
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11-09-2008 04:18
i dont know the technical reasons why, but the introduction of voice coincided with the huge downturn in performance and ushered in the buggiest months of sl in living memory. From: Aminom Marvin Voice chat angered a small segment who were worried about it for social reasons; that it would "ruin immersion" or, cause tons of lag (the lag issue later proved to be false.)
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Nina Stepford
was lied to by LL
Join date: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 3,373
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11-09-2008 04:22
you can do this. just disable textures. from that point on the only textures that will download are the ones you mouse over. From: Patasha Marikh
---things I wish for---
A graphics client that would give you the option to choose which textures to download rather than having to suck down everything in a mall randomly, I would like to have the option to not download any textures until I select the prims in the specific store I want to see. I so hate 5 minute res'ing in a big mall even with 64m draw distance.
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SLU - ban em then bash em!
~~GREATEST HITS~~
pro-life? gtfo! slu- banning opposing opinions one at a time
http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/zomgwtfbbqgtfololcats/15428-disingenuous.html
learn to shut up and nod in agreement... or be banned!
http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/off-topic/1239-americans-not-stupid.html
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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11-09-2008 04:55
I'm still kind of ticked off by the limit of 15,000 prims to a sim, which makes it hard to calculate exactly how many prims you're going to be able to have in a parcel, because land is in power-of-two sizes.
3, 7, ..., 117, ...
If they made it 16,384 prims to a sim, it'd be easy:
4, 8, ..., 128, ...
And don't tell me they couldn't. I thought for a while that they were doing this so they could use 16 bit prim numbers in the server so the 15,000 prim limit plus the 10% headroom for vehicles and avatars and stuff added up to 16,384, but it ain't so. Go to the sim "RW Designs". It's a special case sim with a 20,000 prim limit.
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Void Singer
Int vSelf = Sing(void);
Join date: 24 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,973
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11-09-2008 05:49
From: Argent Stonecutter You only think they're scary if you don't understand just how much protection textures currently have... cached or not. It would have just about zero impact on ripping textures, because it's so much easier to use a modified client, right-click on a prim, and select "save texture" from the pie menu.
No, I don't know for certain there's any modified client with exactly that functionality out there, but I would be absolutely amazed if there weren't several with equivalent functions. It would take about 15 minutes work to implement. or about 2 minutes, using any of the current clients.... oops did I say that? however I meant from the angle that it'd be trival to build a cache browser, and much more tempting since you'd never have to worry about bandwidth what with never redowloading those textures (as opposed to currently available methods). nevermind the obvious benefit of having all the meta info right there, who you stole it from, it's name, it's key, it's actual size, etc
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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11-09-2008 05:54
From: Void Singer however I meant from the angle that it'd be trival to build a cache browser, and much more tempting since you'd never have to worry about bandwidth what with never redowloading those textures (as opposed to currently available methods). nevermind the obvious benefit of having all the meta info right there, who you stole it from, it's name, it's key, it's actual size, etc It'd STILL be easier to modify the client to just save all the textures you see as you go without going through reverse-engineering the daft cache format. They're never going to fix the cache (which badly needs it) if people keep up the melodrama about picking-your-nose-with-your-elbow texture hacking in the cache when that's ALWAYS going to be the hard way. |
