Random first impressions from a SL newbie

And this is your mistake.

It might be "no one's fault but their own". But that does _not_ mean it is no-one else's problem. The retention and recruitment rates affect all of us. They're what give creators their customers, and they're what makes it viable for the Lindens to continue running the world.

I know it is a very difficult problem to solve (and no, I'm not suggesting that successful people should give that up) but we can't be blind to it. Businesses and teachers address this problem every day. I'm surprised that someone with your business experience doesn't recognize it.

Interesting answer, but I think it just underscores some of the fundamental points I was trying to make about individual choices in a Libertarian free market:

1. Unlike in RL, the SL microcosm does have unlimited resources--what matters is what individuals choose to do with those resources, or have the ability to do with those resources.
2. You are correct, not everyone has the same amount of artistic or other types of talent or intelligences. SL is an excellent platform for demonstrating to individuals if they do or do not possess any talents, and if they do, presents an opportunity to exercise those talents--if they choose to do so. For example: I have a talent for maths and organization, so I choose to exercise them in SL; I have no talent for music, so I do not.
3. It is inevitable that some indiviuduals, by dint of experience, become better than others who have less experience. But if you choose to do something, you have to put in the effort and time and, as the immortal Jimi Hendrix said, "Get Experience!"
4. RL companies may roll into SL with "professionals." As many of these types of efforts have shown, many of them will fail, perhaps as many as 50 percent or more. Why? Because "native" in-world residents are already doing a better job, or see an RL company at work and choose to out-do them at their own game. Do a google search on this subject for numerous references.
5. Lastly (thank goodness), your example of games development in particular underscores my point--that people make choices and that governs how the economy, and their individual lives for that matter, progresses. Yep, there used to be a lot of indiviudal game developers. Under the power of competition and increased technical complexity they CHOSE to get out of the business, leaving the field to those who chose to stay in it, and had the talent and intelligence, and endurance, to do so.

So, choose what class you want to be in, or make your own. Choose wisely. Have fun with it.

> Everyone has that barrier somewhere, it's just in different places for different people. And for a lot of people it seem SL's is getting a bit wide. The attendance at new player Show and Tell events has fallen by more than 50% in the recent few months. The sandboxes on Help Island used to be routinely so busy a separate Mentor was needed there - now they are frequently empty. And yes, there _are_ bad feelings - not particularly aimed at individuals, but just general frustration. From various conversations I've had with people it seems very much that for every person who has made something, there are at least one or two other people frustrated that they can't make that kind of item because the first person has them beaten before the race begins. (Ok, they could go ahead and do it anyway, but how can they motivate themselves to work and improve when there is nothing for them at the end?) I've been in both positions at different times. And let me add - this doesn't mean that the people building things are doing anything wrong, of course not, it's just that any activity has ripples across the whole pond and almost always, at least some of those ripples are negative. And yes, that can be an upsetting thing to realize (it was for me, too).

It's funny on MMORPG servers like Ultima Online, Neverwinter Nights and the like there same issue happens. The people who jump on the servers first, get there lvl or skills up the first and start crafting/selling valued items get the name and rep as they were the first smith, carpenter, alchemist, etc in the world. Fast fwd 12+ months, Bob newbie joins the server and wants to work his weapon making skill. And low and behold, he has nothing but a uphill battle as there are already 4 master smiths with stores dotted all across the world. While in SL we are talking (potentially) real $, in the end virtual gold, $L or real $ it matter little. The bottom line in any virtual work where skills (either player skills or character skills) are taken into consideration this kind of (first come, first to get a name for themselves) is going to happen.

Sadly, just like the debate proves here, even in the fantasy RP servers I have yet to encounter any kind of real, viable solution. It seems most game server worlds have by default taken the stance that 'eventually' the top tier skilled people will move on, start anew or some such. Or the other position is a LOT of work by Bob Newbie to get established. Seems those 2 options really are the only things those in SL can do as well. Bob newbie may have the time and skill but either hes going ot have to work x4 harder then those who jumped on board at the start, simply be happy with being a 2nd or 3rd tier supplier or, unfortunately, just give up.

Theres simply to real way to 'make' a new user as well known in CC as well as say my friend Andie, who owns 30+ stores across SL and been on Sl for over 3 yrs.

I recognize people need help in certain aspects..yes.

I am going to quote a passage from the same passage you quoted of me--this still is my answer to this issue:



The first, most important step is for the individual to have the drive. If they have that drive, then they can find a teacher, a mentor, a school, a class...no body is going to hold their hand, put them on the bus, and send them off to creative enlightenment. They have to want it.

That's my entire point. And if you don't want it enough, no one can help you get there. See? I'm not saying we should ignore those wanted to dive in and learn...of course not (I help fledgling artists all the time), but I'm not going to set their alarm clock and brush their teeth. Many people come here and complain that they can't compete with a particular competitor...when the truth is, the one complaining never practices...or if they do, only for a few hours a week in a void. However, the successful competitor went to art school, constantly does online tutorials, reads art and design books...

We can't force anyone to be an artist--they first must have the desire, and be willing to 'put in their time.' That's what I tell all entry level designers and CG artists.

(EDIT)

And let me be completely honest here...money is being made in Second Life...real life money. This naturally creates an atmosphere of professionals--businesses and individuals who have put in a LOT of real-world blood, sweat, and tears are drawn to this budding metaverse because it is a perfect opportunity to share, collaborate, compete, learn, and make money.

It is not the fault of the trained artists that the majority of Second Life users can't design a business to save their sims. I mean come on...you can't hate a designer that comes into SL after getting a Masters in fashion design and builds a successful clothing empire. Look around you...leave it to me to be the honest one of the group here (hate me too if you will) but the majority of content creators out there are amateurs--and the difference between someone who has spend years at their craft and someone 'getting started' is usually night and day. That's no one's fault. That's the way of the world.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's wonderful that anyone can come in and start creating...I love it very much. But don't expect to buy land, put up a box with a logo on it, and expect to make money. We all know when we are in a build or sim that was designed by someone who has experience in design, art, architecture, or modeling...if someone wants to compete with these trained artists...they better get busy. Survival of the fittest...I didn't make that term up, but it's true.

Everyone has to start somewhere. No one should blame the system because they can't jump right in and beat the best...it takes a lot of work.

Actually, there are two very important resources that are limited in SL: reputation and land.



Of course! But - people are more complicated than that. The number one problem with Second Life at the moment, and the thing that the first poster was I think referring to, is the lack of an incremental growth experience. That experience is _the_ big deal about most online worlds. That's how games like World Of Warcraft become so addictive - they provide incremental micro-growth. No matter how short a time you play, even if it's 5 minutes or 4 hours, that little "time left to power up" meter goes up a little bit every time you do. And in those cases, the growth encourages people to spend hours on end "grinding" and killing monsters.

Now, Second Life can be the same. Second Life _can_ provide the same kind of incremental micro-growth, but linked to artistic skills instead of artificial "grinding"! When that works, it's absolutely wonderful! And yes, I know that in reality, any amount of time spent practicing a creative skill improves it, but what SL and the other games provide is a means of feedback to see that happening. Because if you can't see it happening, it doesn't feel like it is happening.

The problem is, the recent developments in SL have taken that away to a great extent. I mean, when I joined in 2005, "make something and sell it" was the standard thing said to any newbie who needed money - now it's "buy L$". There are still some people who benefit from incremental growth, but it can only be provided by small social groups who arrange it internally, and who can't possibly provide it for every single visitor - whereas when the whole community was based around it, it was that way. (Although the community _was_ much smaller at that time.)

When that changed, new people moved to a new place where they could find incremental growth. They want to the "games" of camping/gambling where the growth is a lot less satisfying but at least it is there - every night you have a little more L$ than you did before. (Remember that WoW's incremental growth model makes people spend hours clicking a monster over and over again.) Then gambling had to be removed too.. so now new users are floundering a bit with no concept of such growth and expansion.

Now, yes, it _is_ possible for a person to do without that growth spiral and to pull themselves up by their boot-straps anyway. But realistically, only a few people are likely to be psychologically able to do this, and those people are probably more likely to be doing so in real life, than in Second Life. And I know you want to say "Well, that's fine - those people will succeed and others will fail; they deserve it." The only problem is, that doesn't work in Second Life. What will happen is that those who fail will decide they are not enjoying SL and quit, and thus the economy will shrink and there will be less potential for the successful people.



And why is this a good thing? What it means is that a lot of talented, intelligent people are not designing games, because they either don't have the "endurance" to do that job; or they have the intelligence to choose a job requiring less "endurance" for greater reward. But the outcome hasn't been good for game design or the industry as a whole! That's why even veterans who are within the industry are already protesting at the developments.

Trying to use real life economic theory with Second Life can't possibly with the whole story. The real world doesn't have to tempt consumers to remain alive, but Second Life does. That single fact casts ripples through the entire economic system.

Sure. But you can't just classify people as simply as having a drive, or not having it. People create new drives and remove them all the time. Look at WoW once more - many people playing WoW are not previous MMORPG players, and had no particular drive to spend hours clicking on monsters before they started.



It's just like I said above though.. "want" is more complex than that. Wants are changeable, and they can be contradictory. Many teenagers, for example, badly want to be able to drive but don't want to learn. A skilled driving instructor can make them want to learn, so that they will in the end be better drivers. Now, yes, it's true, they had to call the driving instructor in the first place. But the equivalent in this case is.. creating their Second Life account.



Well, art school is a very bad example - most art schools require a portfolio for entry, which has even been attacked by some RL artists as keeping people out of learning art beyond a young age. But again, we have to go deeper.. why does the competitor do those things? The usual answer is that the competitor is recieving continual positive feedback for doing those things, whereas the complainer isn't. In fact, often they're recieving positive feedback for complaining. I mean, try IMing somebody and telling them how bad your building is. Most will agree and sympathise - even if they have never seen anything you have built.



Well, I'll offer a counter example. Several people I've known on both SL and IMVU have created their own houses on IMVU but would never have dreamed of doing so on SL. Why? Because on IMVU you _have_ to. There's no public space, and you can't chat in IM, so if you want invite someone over they'll come to your house, and if you don't design it it will be a default one. And because of that, some people do design it.. and then people like it and comment on it.. see? Even that tiny initial "bump" of what I suppose is *technically* force (but I don't think anyone would feel "forced" by that) is enough to start a positive feedback spiral that releases creative energy. Meanwhile, exactly the same person on SL gets no such thing.

Yumi...I think you are just finding the parts of my posts that you can 'disagree with' and responding...

My points are valid.

Telling me that 'art schools' are a bad example, is the perfect example of this fact. Art schools are a perfect example...what do you mean a bad example? Just because you need a portfolio to get in, does not mean that an artist isn't going to try. More importantly, if an artists is trying, they have drive. And even more importantly, if they get in, they learn many invaluable things which better their skill and their chance to compete in a very competitive market. And even if they don't get in, it doesn't mean they are going to quit art. They love art....they will always do art. It's that drive I'm talking about. A painter MUST paint...if an art school rejects them, do you think they will stop painting? All this drama in the above paragraph engulfs only he who has desire...and this means they are on the right path.

Sorry, I don't understand your relation to IMVU here at this juncture. I don't think it relates to what we are discussing.

A good example--I am an actor. We are constantly being 'rejected' for roles--for many difference reasons. This should not dissuade anyone from continuing with their craft--if you love to act, then you can't get that bug out of you. If you suck as an actor, and never get hired...perhaps it's time to reassess the situation. But for many of us...someone telling us 'NO' doesn't stop us in the least. That's drive. That's want.

Again, you have to put in your time. You have to practice. Train. Study. How do you expect to compete with someone who does all the things you are not?

I so completely agree with this - and as a real life professional artist who makes a living outside of SL being creative I would like to express that the medium that is SL has in fact done exactly this for me in every creative aspect of my life. It has literally helped to train me to be more creative. I am infinitely grateful.



I agree with this as well I thrive on friendly competition and the generous spirit of artistic collaboration in the RL art world circle I am a part of and here on SL. Recently I have run into - indirectly - a lot of strange behaviour on the part of some SL creators. The kind of behaviour that really wouldn't be found so often in RL and wouldnt be tolerated. I explain it to myself that in SL it is easier to actually start and run a relatively successful business with absolutely no business experience in any sense. So perhaps it is a lack of education that causes people to behave to strangely and accuse others of stealing ideas. When in fact it is just a case of "there is nothing you can do that can't be done."



Hmmmmm personally as a art teacher for hire - I tell my students that I can teach you to draw. Just as an architecture student can be taught draftsmanship - I can teach you the "math" of drawing. But teach someone to be an artist. I completely disagree with that. If the spark isn't there, there is nothing I can do to provide it. No more then I can teach a tone deaf person to sing. Some people just are artistically void of that spark. I have known people that play the piano with precision accuracy - but the soul isn't there. I don't think you can be taught to be an artist. You can discover that you had it in you all along - and that discovery can happen at any time. And as creative beings I think we all have a need to create and that it is healthy for us to do so. We can teach others a craft or a trade and make an artisan out of them. But that singular element that deems one an artist. It is indefinable, yes I think you are born with it and here's the clincher it is entirely subjective as to who has it and who doesn't.

just my .02

hope you don't mind

Your points are valid but they don't consider the entire picture. It isn't enough just to say that someone does not do something. The question has to be ask, _why_ do some do that thing and others do not?



Of course. But what it means is that a beginner doesn't have the option of going to art school - the beginners who succeeded did something else first.



But some do. You're trying to treat people as being far simpler than they actually are, and it just doesn't work. I mean, here's a real quote from Vincent Van Gogh:



So.. at an earlier time, even Van Gogh would have "not heard" of becoming an artist. At that point, he had no drive, although he probably _wanted_ to be one but believed it was impossible. Then, he credits the essential change, that established a drive, to something else - a book he read. In other words, an experience that somebody has can completely change their outlook on creative endeavours.

Second Life could be that experience.

The problem in your argument, you've never considered the possibility of someone who does want to be an artist, but isn't driven to do the work involved, but could be if they were recieving better feedback from doing so.

> If they run away from SL because no one is holding their hand to a path of artistic enlightenment...that's no one's fault but their own. I'm not being cold or harsh here...I'm being honest. If they want help, they can find it...but no one is going to usher them to the path of glory...it takes crazy discipline and dedication.

I have to agree with this. Like most other online mediums unless you get on board right when the platform in question first goes online and are the first of this or that you have a fight on your hands. I recall when I started my RP IRC room on Dalnet. There were about a dozen other rooms already in existence. Took me MORE THEN a year to become a mover, shaker in that community and a good 18 months to become the #1 RP IRC room on that network.

I am thinking of opening a smallish club here on SL, and I am under no illusion if/when it happens opening day people are not going to flood in. It's going to take a lot of footwork, networking and time to get known and get a steady flow of population.

no disrespect intended but i disagree with this. i've read some of your other post and you are seem to be a very intelligent person. but i disagree with this sentiment.

if it really exists and is not pretend then buy a car in 2nd life and drive it on I-95. when i read a book it feels real but it is pretend, i can not pull items out and use them in RL.

i think a lot of people in 2nd life needs a reality check. are people really losing the ability to differentiate between imagination and reality. do you watch "Xena warrior princes" and think it represents life in 5t century BC Attica?

sure people develop an emotional connection to imaginary things but that dose not change what it really is.

i have some old cassette tapes and no tape player, i also have a character sheet for a role playing game i played in the 1980's guess which one represents an imaginary item. one day that character was killed by a gobblin. i'm still alive how could that be. wait i think i may know could it have been imaginary. sure me and a group of my friends collectively pretended together, but it was still pretend.

when you where kids and played cowboys and indians, at the moment you would lose your self in imagination but you where not a cowboy or an indian.

i am not cleowolf we share similar personality traits and taste but cleowolf is pretend. where i am pretty sure i'm real or a very detailed delusion. the jury is still out on that.

the only way things in 2nd life are real are in that the items are real animations much like a the page in a book is a real piece of paper but the fictional charter written about on that page is pretend.

when your AV eats do you taste the food, when it rides a motorcycle do you feel the wind against your skin, when an other AV brushes up against your AV's arm do the nerve endings in your arm feel the pressure?

sorry if that sounds like a rant it was meant to be constructive.