US Goverment coul possible be able to shut down internet

I live in the US where many thousands of people have no dental insurance and wait until their tooth decay is a medical issue of infection and the tooth MUST be pulled....a friend went to the dentist today for just that. so i guess im missing how the US does not have this happening now??

Well then it was unusual and you should've also specified this was over 60 yrs ago. But it also was not the norm. The cases I speak of, (so thanks for laughing) are from my own family - NOT from "third parties" or only from a "movie." As with your other supposition that I'm somehow gullible, brainwashed and sheeplike, this is pure invention on your part.

I gave the documentary and film as a thumbnail illustration since others might be familiar with them or might have seen them - Willowbrook was a documentary Jojo, not a movie.

Also, it may look quite different when you are the one living in a mental institution, whose life consists of puttering around a garden, every move monitored, vs. living where you wish. But I'm not sure what your example proves, other than in the 1940s you worked in a hospital that wasn't a snake pit. So you're saying none were?

Nor was it medication alone that caused the snake pits. Before that they often would just chain people to a wall. Absence of pharma does not = therapeutic. Or how about Steilacoom. I'm sure since you're an expert you're familiar with that one as well.

But even in your post, you admit that this will not likely return. Again - why do you think that if the govt. runs it ALL, it will not only be different but better? Look at what happened to soldiers - being given vaccines and developing Gulf War Syndrome. Or what's happening NOW with laws almost passed to make Gardasil mandatory (when it's not even effective on most strains and has serious side effects), or the unnecessary swine flu vaccine being pushed? Or Tamiflu that has allegedly caused people to jump off rooftops as a side effect?

If the govt makes all the decisions in future, how easy would it be to mandate all of that, risky or not. There will be MORE abuse, not less. I keep asking you why you feel otherwise but you have yet to reply. Just a few veiled insults instead.

Oh so please explain to me how this supposed system works where the GOVERNMENT decides who is on the wait list for surgeries. Please. I've spent my entire career either providing direct patient care in a hospital and also in the capitalist private sector (which you might be surprised exists in "socialist" countries such as mine) and I've yet to see the government deciding who gets surgery next.

If you want reform then WHY are you arguing with me. What do I keep saying? Have you read my posts or merely skimmed them?

As for your question about pulling teeth. Yes it happens already but not to EVERYONE. Question is not how to make things perfect that may never happen. But how to make things better, not WORSE.

Care to be more specific yourself?

Also don't twist my words, I didn't say there is a 1 800 line or that someone literally comes in and says no they can't have that. But we routinely get people here who want their heart operation NOW and not 18 months from now, as their govt. wants.

There is a set of criteria upon which someone is moved to the top of the list or not, is there not? But do you care to say which country you are in, so I know what you're referring to?

Thanks, Dytska.

I hate choice being taken away and that's the road my nation is headed down, more and more.

Esquivel, I am not as confident as you are, that those reforms are "all" that would happen. Those could each be their own law and passed by now, or passed now, without any fanfare.

Instead, most politicians seem in drug companies' pockets. Watch how many drug ads are on tv and the lonngggg list of side effects. Why are those legal?

clarissa...ive not insulted or directed any negative remarks to you...i would be very direct if i meant it that way. i was referring to the general public who are acting like sheep and just taking all the random accusations thrown out on tv and radio as gospel...

also, i was not laughng at you. my lol was in reference to you thinking my information was from a movie or documentary and yes that did make me giggle. i will be more specific since you requested it. i worked at the Worcester State Hospital in the 1990's with doctors and nurses etc who had worked there for many years. i walked past the patients who were strapped to their chairs drooling and told that these same individuals has previously tended the gardens etc. there was no walking through a garden as you indicated...these people were completely medicated and tied to a chair and there were many of them treated this way in the 1990's. of course there were horrible conditions in the very early years of mental health treatment....it wasnt even recognized as a medical condition until the middle of the last century.

we agree that reform is needed...and to me, even this discussion is valuable. what i fear is that any real reform or change that the us govt is trying to make is going to quashed by misinformation and slurs referring to hitler and death squads etc. in the general public.

i guess i look at the potential reform as promising and it seems you dont....just two sides of the same issue i think.

Wait times for treatments vary by country. Canada has a reputation for long wait times, but that appears to have been because their system was underfunded. In recent years Canada has boosted health care funding and wait times have declined.

France, in particular, has very low wait times. Japan has extremely high usage of health services--people there see their doctors, on average, about 3 times more often than people in the USA do.

Long waits, when they happen, are subjectively unpleasant. However, the fact remains that some 20 other countries with some form of government mandated universal health coverage, whether single-payer or not, have better longevity rates than the USA. To the extent that long waits occur in those countries, they do not adversely affect people's health.

In the USA though, some people wait for treatment because they can't afford to pay for it and they have no insurance. For this reason, they end up in emergency rooms or dumped into institutions, at which point they are much sicker than they would be if they got treatment at the first sign of trouble, and as a result, treating them is more expensive than it would have been, and less likely to be successful than it would have been.

No health care system is perfect. Many people who oppose single-payer or other government mandates selectively highlight the imperfections of similar systems while ignoring the failings of our own system. It remains a fact that other countries that have universal coverage get better results, at lower costs, than we do.

http://cthealth.server101.com/the_case_for_universal_health_care_in_the_united_states.htm

So, referencing the only other two in the convo besides yourself and myself, as rational, and people who believe as I believe, as sheeplike, gullible etc. is a compliment? But I will accept that you did not mean it that way, if you say so.



I don't think I said "laughing at me" but "laugh again" and I did not say you got your info from a movie. I, rather, referenced 2 films that illustrated the condition of most places like mental institutions or institutions for what they then called "retarded children" - such as Willowbrook.

I did find it a bit callous that you began the reply with LOL, after the painful family example I confided. But whatevs.



I requested a nation name of Joshooah actually. I didn't ask you for a hospital name. The time frame you spoke of wasn't entirely clear in your post - "that was in the 40s, 50s and 60s" as you put it. But it wasn't entirely clear what "that" referred to.



I agree with you about Big Pharma and the damage it's done. But it's not the only thing at issue. Was the hospital state run or private? If state run I'm surprised, since I thought those were done away with by JFK.

Try and find a mental hospital (for use of a blunt term) for anyone who needs a place to recover after a breakdown today - it is next to impossible. Some regular hospitals have a 'ward' but nothing is done other than overmedication. (In fact, you cannot BE in one and refuse meds. Period. Allergies? Too bad. They do not even run a Cytochrome P450 yet. You know what that is, I'm sure?) Then, once the meds make them a zombie they call that stabilised. Then, back onto the pavement.



There still is NOW. Not much has gone on since Freud and Jung. Cognitive behavioral therapy makes a bit more sense. But, again, why do you feel govt. run things will make things better? And you may not have used that phrase but it's been what you suggest in some posts. Govt. taking over things and making the decisions. You seem against private health care.



Yes if I did not feel the discussion had merit I wouldn't be in it. So we agree there and we agree reforms are needed on some things. We just disagree that the bureaucratical and red tape heavy and bankrupt (California - garage sale! GARAGE SALE. Lol) and bribe accepting and double talking and double dealing govt. is the one to do it.

Also I keep saying reform is needed, so don't misquote me please. It's HOW it is being done and by WHOM that I disagree with. As I keep saying.

80% are not "happy" with their health care. According to various surveys roughly 80% of Americans that HAVE some form of health insurance are "satisfied" with their health care. A bit less than half of those are only "somewhat satisfied" with their health care, and 20% receive health care through public programs like medicaid and medicare. 80% also are concerned with the rising cost of health care. Those figures are hardly indicative that the system does not need reform, especially when uncompensated health care for the uninsured paid for by federal, state and local government cost taxpayers over 57 billion dollars last year and is going to cost us more every year until that need is addressed.

Ok another bit of RL. An elderly relative is about to move into assisted living. First? Has to give away everything she owns. If she has a single asset she will be denied and have to pay out of pocket.

Why not reform THAT?

How is it fair, as the guy says in "Avalon," ( ) "you work all your life only to end up giving it all away to end up in a place like this."

Seriously though, why is that a law? Why not SUPPLEMENT the cost or do a sliding scale without requiring an elderly person to get rid of everything first - and why are nursing homes allowed to charge SO much to begin with.

Another elderly relative literally went broke that way, just buying their own medical supplies the home did not provide, as well as paying for their own care.

Why not address the problems (such as those), rather than abolish private care or other options?

good thing i have a cell phone.

I thought it was well known that, do to heavy reliance on the internet and no real plan to protect it, the United States has a huge, obvious security risk when it comes to cyberattacks. The government absolute needs to develop a plan to protect itself.

So the legislation is necessary.

Whether it will be abused by the government is a different issue. The federal government in general, and the executive branch especially, makes a grab for exponentially more power every year. It doesn't matter which party is in power; the party in power tries to grab more. The recent Bush Administration was particularly scary, but really rolled with momentum from the Clinton Administration's expansion of executive power, and the Obama Administration continues the trend. Though Obama campaigned against a lot of the Bush expansion of power in the name of "security," now that he's in office he's changed his tune, and everyone should really have expected that.

Since so much of the world's internet runs through the United States, I would think it would be the internation community would be much more concerned about this than U.S. citizens.

I did.

His choice in cabinet was also telling.

The bailouts started in that term but the problem has been one that a few Dem and Rep presidents can take the blame for ignoring..One side won't get the glory on this one when it's all said and done..the thing that pisses me off is we won't get a damn dime for saving these corps asses but they wil go on getting rich while we fund freaking businesses

Round 2 is about to start up with the next housing market crash and the rest of the numbers showing up from the whole banking mess..
it's not over yet..we're only in the eye of the storm waiting for that inner wall of the second half to hit.

They want us to feel secure and see that it is getting better so we get out there and spend to show spending increases to the rest of the world to put a little faith back in the currency.. but savings keeps going up while spending keeps going down..A lot of people were screwed over just last year when this whole mess finally landed on them..they think the public is stupid..


I don't think we have the best health care in the world..i believe it was compared to 3rd world levels in an article i was reading awhile back..i'll have to see if i can find it..

I figure this whole rush to get public health care has something to do with the 78 million people that will fully qualify for medicare in 2011..I'm not sure of the connection yet but there is a feeling there hehehehe
that is gonna be another good strain coming that is gonna affect us for awhile after that..
the system has been abused to death..


That happens with both sides..
Both sides want the same thing..control..and both sides have their vocal groups that get loud speaking for everyone instead of themselves..one term it's reps then it's dems..it makes my ears bleed because it never ends.. hehehehe

There is negligible difference in behavior between either party any more.

Watch for a 3rd party candidate in the next Pres election and watch for them to win.

And then do nothing much different. ;[

clarissa...i was not familiar with the hospital in wa that you referenced but i looked it up and the article actually describes the success of the farming and occupational program i was talking about...thought it might be interesting to you....this article even mentions that once this program was stopped due to labor laws etc...that hospital closed.

http://mhtransformation.wa.gov/pdf/mhtg/HistoryWesternStateHospital.pdf

yes, there are still quite a number of state hospitals all over the country including the one where i practiced. they are used more for people who cant function outside their walls these days tho whether short term or permanent and people who have no other options.

Which one, Steilacoom? Are you JOKING?

And the Nazi films about concentration camps, that showed people raising vegetables and smiling are true also?

Steilacoom was notorious as a snake pit. It's where Frances Farmer was sent. Orderlies took money from men and allowed them to gang-rape her.

/me does her Godwin dance

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But it IS the same thing. (Propaganda)

Steilacoom was horrific.

just referencing the description in the article i saw about the programs there....that certainly does not negate any abuses....what i meant was that the description of the entire community there and the opportunities for the folks to work and actually DO something and the description of the change once heavy meds came out was what i was describing as well.

The Graymacraticans lol
we play both sides of the evil so you can't go wrong ..vote gray hahahahah

The horrific state run institution where family members who were not even ill, were physically and sexually abused, had 'occupational therapy' also.

Just saying, Jojo. Apples and oranges.



LOL yes.

ok clarissa...i give up...

you are completely correct and none of the info i have about mental hospitals from personal experience, or about mental health treatment etc is accurate...

in fact i think you are right...

the lld state hospitals were actually run by nazis or at least they had to have gotten their ideas on gardening from nazis since that is what those films showed. my mistake thinking any info i had from my own experience might be true.

god help us all if the nazis are setting up this govt run healthcare and those death panels too. im going to bed now and im gonna pull the covers over my head and hope the nazis dont have xray glasses to see through my walls too.

nite nite

OH PLEASE.

Now THAT deserves a Godwin dance. I thought you were for rational arguments.

You've completely missed my point(s). To say the least.

(Including where I keep AGREEING with you on Big Pharma! :/ )