I have a serious problem

Hi to those interested to know.

In around December 2006. I was playing Slingo and after I put my coin in a person come upon me to "watch" me play. It was "her" (a guy in RL and it don't matter). Observed me playing and had a friendly chat..which befriended me. Finding out what I do in SL at that time was the "casino thing" if I may say.

And later on in around January of 2007. as I was going back once in a while to this persons Slingo she would talk to me. Asking me what's up and or what's on my mind. During one of our conversations. I mentioned I was thinking of getting an Island. AN ISLAND?

Yes. And this person was so excited to ask me if it was possible if we could be island partners in "ownership". I said I would do some research and think of it.

Well we had all our "gentleman's agreement" to purchase an island and go in on it 50/50 FIFTY/FIFTY. And we knew there could only be one name on the lease per say. We flipped for who would be that person. And the other would be able to name the island. I got to name the island. I named it Avaron. I wanted just each to have a 4096 and "rent out" the 14 other 4096's. and that we can and or could grow. But my partner just did not want to split me a 4096. He/She wanted to each to have equal of thre 4096 size lots. and rent out the remaining ten lots. And that would be enough to cover our tier. I went along with it.
By July as we all know the banning that took place. So my partner by now has cut me a slice of the island and removing me from her section. As my business was a benefit of my traffic that I could attract. In previous rented land. And my parnter knew that I drew people for the games and events I held. And since the business of gaming was basically gone. My partner pushed me to the corner of the sim..and become uncommunicatable. Degrading my status to nothing. This was for about 6 weeks. And then finally of all. my partner returned my items. from the Island. I asked to communicate with my partner from Skype as we always have previously. My partner said that she "he" had nothing to say to me. And after several attempts to communicate with my partner I was banned from the island that I had initially wanted. the Island I named. The island that I thought we was really partners with.

I have filed numberous complaints with LL about this in game and to various people. But have never had a resolve to the matter. And by January of this year of 2008. I got tired and fed up with it, and took a break. I felt I was ripped off. I felt I was defrauded. And now I find out from reliable sourses. that the person had pre planned to defraud me of my 1/2 of the island we purchased together. you know $800 x 2 people = 1600 the cost of the island at that time in 2007. (in other words it took funds of 2 people to buy a server for SL).

My so called partner won't respond. My former partner tried to destroy any tie with me. Even the group that was assigned to the island. Designs unlimited members was being removed except for me. As I was listed as OWNER along the side of my so called partner. I salvaged that by adding some friends of mine that was not in the group. Just to salvage any evidence we had some connection together. I have all the conversation from SKYPE when my partner was unable to use the microphone. Which point out that we was forming a partnership prior to the island being brought on. I have a payment receipt from paypal so stating the reason I was sending my parnter 800.00 USD was for the island. So..where am I wrong? by partnering with a thief ?

To make things worse I was seeing I was getting railroaded by this partner. I tried to sell out my side of the island. And that idea was even stopped by this partner. So i got a double screwing! And yet i have tried many times to contact LL even by phone call and was hung up.

what is a person to do in this situation? Take it lightly and let the bully partner get away wit it? I think not..and not in this day and age.

Thank you for listening.

Inyur Orbit

this really sucks I know and this advice is easy to give, but not to take, forget about it. I do know that something like this is hard to forget about, later on at times, it will creep into your dreams or something during the day will remind you of it and your stomach turns over and you will just feel like you was such an idiot to allow this to happen. One day this feeling will go away or at least lessen to just another event in your life.

Yeah, afraid that's about it.

If you look at it from LL's viewpoint, they're hardly in the business of adjudicating RL contract law, and in fact that's what one has, when entering into a partnership with somebody to buy (or buy in to) a sim. The proper solution would be small claims court--except of course that's totally unrealistic with the contract parties spread all over the globe.

So that's a limiting factor for SL's success: nobody is going to go to the Hague to recover damages from a little sim joint-venture, and so if people knew what they were getting into, there'd be a lot fewer such ventures, and a lot less island revenue for LL.

It sucks, but it's just kind of a built-in speed bump. A big bump. But you'll recover, because you have to.

Just out of interest, who tossed the coin, and how?

I often give people the advice to never ever go into an SL business partnership unless you have full control. They can work, but they fail so often, with one partner screwing the other. It doesn't matter how much 'in love' the partners are, it ends up that way so very often. (I know that this case wasn't anything to do with romance).

Thanks for reading the title and or replying with your advice.

I did take the advice from a direct SL call in. I followed procedure as I was instructed. Time and time again. Per what my truthful story as mentioned above of my so called partner.
Yet it fell on those responsible of handling this type situation, nothing was done about it. No one contacted me, nor was nothing done. Yet there is reference in the TOS of fraud, a few 2-3 times, which this would fall into a form of wire fraud. Yet...there is no substantial reasoning that a person named "sarah" who happens to be a Showboat on his/her ways.

Regardless what anyone thinks or their opinion the person should come forward and pay me or buy me out of my investment. But in fact has ran up a large bill of past rent for my side of my island of Avaron. To this present writing is well do the math. I charge 200 USD a month for 1/2 of that island and at 13 months of usage. Plus my initial investment.

Avaron Island belongs to me, regardless of who's name is top land manager. Well at least 1/2 of it does. Something has to be done to prevent future type rip offs..and something should be done for this present case. Its not a fictional case scenario. I trusted this person but that trust went out the window the day I was banned from my own island.

OK, hold on.
First, what's this about rent? An island can only be owned by one person, regardless of any "gentlemen's agreement". ONE person is responsible for paying the monthly tier to LL. Are you saying that you've been billed for tier by LL? Or that you paid tier to your partner until you got kicked off? Or that you paid tier to her AFTER you got kicked off?? Please clarify.

Second, Avaron does NOT belong to you, in the eyes of the law and of LL. As I said before, only one person can own an island. You put up your half of the money, true...but that was between you and your partner. LL considers her to be the owner, and in fact, by all legal standards, she is.

The only recourse you have is Small Claims Court. To use this route, you would have to hire an attorney, get LL to disclose your ex-partner's real life information, and file a real world action against her. I will tell you what your attorney will tell you: The cost of doing this will FAR exceed any recovery you couild hope to make. And if she is in a different country than you...well, forget it.

You made a bad business decision. You trusted someone you didn't know with a significant amount of money. You should NEVER have allowed your partner to purchase the island in her name. Next time you have a dream that requires the support of partners, be sure to keep control of the operation. Lesson learned.

It's bad luck, but always be your own person in SL. Never put more into a relationship or joint business venture than you're prepared to lose.

So below you are saying what? You paid for the Sim for a year up front to your partner? Or the "ran up a past bill or rent" means they are no longer charging renters for what used to be yours?

Since the Sim is in their name, not much you can do, but then, your financial responsibilty for the Sim has ended the second you were kicked off. At that time, you no longer gained any income from it , or need to pay any debts for it. That is all under your ex-partner now. Like others have said, the only way you can be sure not to get screwed in a partnership is to be the one in control of the assets. This is true in RL as well as SL.

Also as others said. unless you are willing to fight in small claims court for principle only. It will cost you more to keep fighting this than to just let it go. It sucks, but is true.

best thing you can do is buy a new Sim, name it similarly, and move on as sole owner of it. You can then have managers under you that can help out, but you collect all fees and you make all payments.

Anyone willing to send another person money to do a "joint venture" needs to have Real World information on each other and perhaps a RL contract made up. This way courts can help out more.

now mind you. My financial expertise is ... "How much did you say that was again?"

This story rings sadly true, and my heart goes out to you - but there isn't much to gain in the court of public opinion here.

And trial by court of public opinion is even worse - it's mob justice.

Let's say everyone read these posts, and through that there was demonstrable financial harm to the other party. If you made even the slightest mis-statement on your part and knew it, you could be liable for damages.

So not only would you have
a) your investment taken
b) no means of recouping it
c) you would also be facing potential libel charges.

I would urge you to be cautious. First, if there are any records of agreement, then you might have a court case. Odds are you'll lose more than you might recover that way, but perhaps satisfaction is worth it to you. I fully understand that kind of thing.

Second, trial by court of public opinion doesn't work. People who are well known on forums rarely 'lose' no matter how wrong they were, because their friends will gang up. Second, the accused can (and will) write anything, too - and so can their friends. There is no such thing as discovery of evidence, no established law, just... a big mess. Justice rarely comes of it, and in fact it might just make it all that much worse. If you insist on taking this tack, however, I'd recommend third party forums, as such trials will be moderated here.

Good luck to everyone involved, and I hope there is justice, resolution and lasting peace.

always have an RL legal binding contract anytime you go into any partnership with anyone in business..SL makes it too easy to get shafted otherwise..

Only one person can own an estate island (technically it isn't even really ownership but a revocable license from Linden Lab to one person). As a practical matter the other person is a renter regardless of any contract written or oral they might have with the owner. The costs of enforcing any such contract generally will always outweigh any losses recouped. People should accept this and act accordingly when entering into arrangments with an estate owner. Personally I would never have paid anything more than half the monthly tier in any such arrangement and even then only after having researched the credibility of the owner.

My advice to the OP is to move on. It's unfortunate but dwelling on it is not going to improve your situation.

Exactly. Good business sense to do things the legal way. Get real life names and info before even doing anything like that. Otherwise you will lose.
It really amazes me how often this happens and so many people do nothing to protect their selves legally.

That really sux Inyur Orbit I wish you luck
Peace

Because it bears repeating... any time you put a sizable amount of RL dollars into a SL venture with a partner, make sure you have a RL contract to back it up.

I too do not understand, as i told you in-world... If she is the landowner... meaning she got your 800 and her 800 and paid the 1600 to LL.

She will also get the bill for 195 dollars in land tiers each month from LL

I just dont see where the 200 dollars in rent you calculate comes from... Sorry.

I am very sorry for your loss however... and do hope you will find a resolution

I will answer this quite frankly.

Its simple we went in on the island together. we put our share into it.

yes we got a bill of 195. Those who rent the land (mostly was and still is today are my own friends and or advertisements that put them there). Since the island is 1/2 mine. And I do not have access to it..even so. I charge 200.00 am month flat rate. This is my choice, because it is the going rate of a 1/2 sim. And since I'm on on island. I make it very clear that is my going rate. Many can disagree. I care less it is my investment of the island and the trickery behind it to have me removed. I do not have to give bate for debate from the top of this statement. There are many who sidle with the situation TUFF LUCK...and WOOT to the one who frauded me. Because they like this sort of thing..unless they are on the same side of the fence with me. Not my concern with their opinions. I just stick to the facts.

I have found a resolution it's simple its called Wire fraud. From one american in the USA to another American oversea's.

I don't say "tuff luck" or "woot," because it seriously sucks that this is happening to you. I feel your pain. However, I think what people are trying to say is that you have to look at the reality of the situation - just because someone screwed you, and you SHOULD have recourse or compensation, doesn't mean you DO have recourse, or WILL get compensation. That's the reality of life, real and virtual. Reality isn't always fair.

I may well have misunderstood the process you went through to purchase the island - I am sort of a noob - so correct me if I'm wrong. In this situation, I'm afraid this person has engineered it so you ended up with little documentary claim on this land. In situations like this, in my experience, documentation is everything. And though I'm a relative noob in SL, for better or worse, I'm definitely not a noob to RL.

Regarding the wire fraud issue - when you say you found resolution, do you mean you have resolved it, or that you are pursuing a resolution? In my own past experience with a fraud claim on an auction site, I had the burden of producing lots of documentation and correspondence in order to win my claim. (of course the criminal who tried to steal my money just sat back - it was all on me to prove my case). In your case of a "gentlemen's agreement" (for lack of a better term) I would be concerned about what you can provide them to back up your claim.

I truly hope you reach a satisfactory resolution. I am interested in these kinds of disputes, so please let us know if you do reach a resolution, if you don't mind.

Not what I mean..i found a way to deal with this. It is to file with law enforcement officials because it is come to the point that as you said a well engineneered scam from the get go. So since it deals with the internet and there is strong evidence of this person using the situation it is a form of wire fraud. I have already filed with the ICS. It will take time to resolve in due time. Let me quote the law if I may.

The crime of wire fraud is codified at 18 U.S.C. § 1343, and reads as follows:

Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.


As I'm no lawyer. But I can read. my partner deviced a scheme to defraud. over the internet.

So is this person someone you know RL or just some person on SL ?

You know what? Thieves know NO boundries. There *is* no SL or RL when it comes to money, it ALL adds up to RL money. the only difference is the exchange rate. A thief will take your dollars, linden dollars, sims, they will take your teeth if they have gold fillings...

I thought I got ripped off yesterday when I bought a L$100 purse that looks like crap on my avy. There goes a whole candy bar's worth of RL money.

YOu cannot tell a thief by talking or looking at them. They truely are wolves in sheep's clothing.

I guess this answers my question about trusting someone cause they have a cool avatar...

Without evidence this will not likely resolve the issue in a manner that is satisfactory to you. Anyone can file a criminal complaint. It does not mean that the authorities will elect to pursue an investigation let alone a prosecution. I see very little if anything at all that you can present to the authorities which they can use as objective evidence to establish a case but good luck.

I'm still confused... who actually pays the monthly tier to Linden Lab? You or your partner?

Inyur I have read all of the posts and still don't know who pays the tier to Linden Labs. If it is you then you have full control of the sim. If it is the other person then you are a renter in Linden Lab's eyes and they will not be involved in a dispute between the two of you. If you do not own the sim my advice is to take your loses and look for somewhere else to conduct your business.

This is most definitely a cautionary tale - a highly unfortunate one. It's not the first I have read about, and I'm sure, sadly, it won't be the last.

I really feel for you, being cheated in this fashion - because assuming your story is correct (and I have no reason to doubt it), you WERE cheated.

I really, really wish this sort of thing were made a little more public, once in a while, so that other residents can learn from it.

I mean, if you met a person in a bar in RL over a period of weeks and mentioned you were planning to invest in some land as a rental property, and they said they would go "in" with you 50/50 and you did a "gentleman's agreement" for it, then, they came up with some legal reason why the land could only be in one person's name, and they said they tossed a coin, and they would get the name on the deed, but that you could name it... well, would that be a deal that you would do in RL?

I know exactly one person in RL that would do something like that - they became a millionaire, and then lost it all when two people took them for a ride and left them high and dry.

So if you wouldn't do it in RL, why on earth would you do it in SL and expect a different result?

You, I am sure, have now learned your lesson - what worries me is that there are many, many more out there who haven't....

I'm sorry, who paid for the island?

Here it is in a nut shell answer pretty much who did what and who is who. And I quote.

Get it WE BOTH PAID...

==================

"My shared land partner Sarah Showboat who we together purchased to use Avaron Island. We both paid about 800.00 USD each to share the island.

Since the fall of gambling, she has slid from underneath our distant agreement to our land size we were allocated. And as of recent days since September 15th 2007 apparently "she" has abandoned me as her partner, with no re-imbursement of our shared land. That includes 3 months (at the time of this writing) of back rent owed me for my unability to use my land. She has even put me to ignoring me. It is unfair treatment that i am recieving. Being 1/2 "owner" of Avaron Island. I can't force her to talk to me, i can't force her to turn on my status to be able to use my allocation of land, being 3x4096=2811 size lot that we both agreed to have before the island came online. That she continues to rent out to other avatars, and collects the funds to herself. We at first always agreed to speak to each other on matters of the island Via Skype and with voice and since July she has spoken 1 time. And that was when she sent me to a corner of the island, and then she revokes this from me..and is not responding to anything i say. I have just as much right to speak on this island and issue as I paid and I have full proof of what i paid to "sarah showboat" in Feb of this year, via Paypal. Please help me. I feel she has voilated me and Second Life and the Federal law on Internet fraud in many ways."