Copybot Still Around

If you think the Copybot is last-years-news, I have to disappoint you. Copybot-clones are still being sold and therefore assumeably in use. Filed an abuse report with the location of sales, in the hopes the whole Copybot issue is taken care of permanently this time. Until then, expect your (modifiable) creations to be copied and resold at about every other yardsale and Ldollar store.

"Thank you for you patience."

i`d be lying saying i`m not suprised heh

hope what you did helps against it but my yard sale is real stuff

I have the source code for the old copybot program sitting on my hard drive.

That old code is still available on the internet.

I'm talking about the old, real copybot, the libsecondlife based c# program, not some other lsl thing people might be calling copybot today.

"No modify" means just that: the linkset can not be modified.

It does not in any way mean or imply that the actual prim parameters aren't right there regardless of modify permissions, and regardless of ownership. The fact that they don't show up in the offical viewer is what provides you with the illusion that mod vs no-mod makes a difference, but it really doesn't.

Simplified it just looks like this:

if (can-modify-what's-being-edited)
show the prim params
else
blank the prim params

Get rid of the "if" and the "blank" and the viewer will show you the prim params of linksets regardless of mod, and regardless of ownership.

Everyone who creates anything (other than a script) in SL has to accept that there is nothing that can truly be done to obscure things from the viewer because it ultimately needs the data to render things. That applies to prims, textures, sculpties, shapes, animations, etc.

Now, if you want to make it more difficult for people to casually copy anything that's a whole other thing (removing the texture UUID grabber is one example, making selling/offering copybot in-world a TOS violation is another, etc) but you should never loose sight of the fact that it just can not ever stop it from happening anyway.

You also have to realize that it's *you* and not LL that is responsible for enforcing your IP. LL is only responsible when it concerns the permissions system and nothing more. If someone finds an way to transfer no-transfer items, that's an exploit. If someone recreates (whether automated or not) an object then that has nothing to do with the permissions system at all, and your only options is to persue real world actions to take against the infringer.

"Take care of copybot permanently" is similar to a singer who's asking for a way to keep people from recording their songs. The only sure way is for them to not sing at all. Until you can accept that, you'll keep stressing yourself out while the reality is that the overwhelming majority of people are honest and that even when it does happen people report or tell you and the ultimate damage ends up being minimal.

QFT!! (I don't like it but it's true..)

Sorry, I am a bit late to the party.
What exactly does Copybot do?
I remember reading somewhere that it didn't work quite the way people thought it would. Either way, what does it do?

Thanks,
Maddy

(Could not be entirely accurate, but this is the way I remember it evolving )

The "original" copybot was something that would simply create a mirror image of you (it would change its shape to yours, and used your baked texture to mimic your clothes/skin) which included any prim attachments that you were wearing (hair, shoes, prim skirt, etc). It was actually a "showcase" bot from the libSL people.

Then someone warped the - publically available - "original copybot" code to recreate arbitrary linksets (basically anything it could see) in the same way you would copy/paste values from the edit window and create it one prim at a time, then grab the texture keys and apply them to the prims to end up with an exact replicate (in that sense it never "copied" something, it simply recreated, which put it outside of the permissions system realm).

That "new copybot" was then being sold by people (real or scam, never figured that part out ) and meanwhile rumours were flying around like crazy until most people didn't know what it could and could not do (it was limited to recreating prims, not animations, scripts, clothing, etc) and a big wide scare broke out with some stores closing their doors in protest and others out of fear.

LL responded with an unfortunate "not all copying is wrong" (which is true, but it was the wrong thing to say at the wrong time) public announcement, causing massive outcry as people read it to imply "we don't care". The post was later reworded to say the same thing, but with the added clause that the "use of copybot to infringe on copyright" was a TOS offense and could be reported with just an AR rather than a DMCA which calmed everyone down.

And then of course came the CopyBot "preventers," which were really annoying objects which conceivably prevented this CopyBot activity in shops. They were really annoying because for a while every shop had one, and any time anyone entered the shop, the CopyBot would start saying things like "Quit! Quit! Quit! This store is protected by CopyBot Spammer" (or whatever the name of the thing was. It was terrible; the screen would fill up with a bunch of green lines of CopyBot Protector text. It got so that I would just turn around and leave if I got screamed at by the protector. The CopyBot Protectors really couldn't do a whole lot, since you still have to view an object on your home computer. But boy oh boy, the people who made/sold CopyBot Protectors sure made a lot of money.

and it's still around... and still useless.... it yells at customers, but the real thing doesn't listen to that, only the early versions... it like someone selling you a lock system that consists of a rubber band and an ugly green ribbon....

My home is the Warmouth infohub, the nerditorium. Most of the time when I log in, there is at least one motionless Ruth there. She used to be dressed all in white, with a Ruth sister nearby, also dressed in white. Now she is dressed in a violet top and jeans, like the girl next door avatar. One reason she is so noticable is that her posture is odd, like she is hovering getting ready for flight. I have watched these Ruths and they don't change or move, so it's not the lag causing new logins to appear Ruthed or unbaked. (maybe I have too much time on my hands?) The most aggrssive thing I have ever done is pushed one a little to see what would happen. Nothing. (Although I have considered using them as target practice.) Their profile is blank as if they were new, but sometimes they are several months to a year old. Just for fun I will chat !quit (OK maybe for spite) in case they are copybots. (But now thanks to this thread I know that this is useless.)

What are these things? Are they copybots? Are they at other infohubs or log in spots? Are they the ghosts of abandoned avatars? Is the nerditorium haunted? Is there any way to get rid of them?

All thoughts and opinions welcomed and encouraged.

Hope, they are just client connected via libsecondlife.

defunct bots can do this
some times they just fly at maximum normal hight in circles untill they figure it out and quit for a relog prolly at home
some use some weird animation and crawl, some appear what you see asif they are ready to jump or being crushed into the ground

There's also a build of a photo-copier named CopyBot.

It should be name CopyButt, I think.

I run into these all the times in stores and was even wondering if its something I should get. Had no clue what they were. Now I know.

Hello I am new to SL and still learning as much as I can so if I say something NOOBISH that is why....

I read that thing and responces on the main SL page that Linden staff said they would read and consider that were stated as options. I couldn't post there so I am posting here I am still not sure if this is the correct spot.

I know SL is proud to be a NO LIMITS world. but as I read about this copy bot thing it seems to me that it would be with benifit to have a few at least.

I read that the reason CopyBot was created was for backup reasons well if so many people were wanting backup wouldn't it be a better plan for linden to offer the ability to backup your Designs after making sure they created the in world item? Even if they charged like they do for uploads i can still see this as a viable way to solve a problem the Artists, Designers, and Creators have been facing that resulted in someone putting that much time in creating Copybot to begin with.

Like a section in their account screen. They already have a system for showing all the transactions I wouldn't think it to be hard to simply follow the path of a item ID to the first person to have it in their inventory.

Like people Selling Linden $ to Noobs on ebay because they are not aware you get a better deal buying them direct from LL. Safer too...lol Thats my opinion at least.

I am not sure if linden staff would read this but my hope is maybe they would and can use the ideas.

I am still learning the creation parts of SL but so far I like it. It seems to me that in order to Copy a item you have to have access to the item.... I have not seen this copy bot but I am assuming it would be hard to copy something you do not have.

Wouldn't it fix the problem if all items were NOT allowed to copy? Like the originals were not allowed to be sold and original kept unless you put it in a LINDEN provided factory or something. If the factory was responsible for encrypting the items and reproducing them wouldn't that solve Alot of the troubles? The Creator could decide how many Copies will be made and a total limit allowed EVER imprinted on the item created.

I mean if you trully want the econamy to flourish (which I hope it will) Then making it so the only way to make more than one copy of an Item is to have the original seems to be a GREAT STEP. It sure would raise the value of the Originals and the Reseller industry if the very Artist That created it was not allowed to keep a copy of the original to make more copies of it. Just like exclusive manufacturing rights in the real world. The inventor is able to keep a copy of the product they create but they are not allowed to SELL anymore of them once you sign a contract with a distributer. Or like the Manufacture has to pay for raw materials to reproduce the item. Myself as a Creator if I had to pay a SMALL fee like $5L Per Item for it to be reproduced would be understood and just included in my sale price as a cost of doing business. It sure would cut down on the overloaded Asset System.

My thoughts would be it ALSO would make The Items Created worth more since the only person able to make more of them in Game would be just the ONE person that holds the Original Item. I like to both be a Reseller AND a Creator. It sure would help with BOTH abilities if as a reseller they would have to be directed to my location to be able to purchase the items. To Continue to replicate the same items over and over seems to me like eventully there would be so many similar items available that a Designer or Creator wouldn't have a better chance of selling a design Created Completly by them than someone using someone elses stuff.

Or am I just not understanding the problem? For me as a new Creator in SL I could see how someone just copying one of my items for personal use isn't a major problem. It would be troubling yes but in the long run it wouldn't ruin my ability to market and sell it. If it was built the way I stated above the only one able to allow for more copies to be made would be the one in my inventory.

Where I see a problem is reading that this Copybot has the ability to not only copy my items but then they can redistribute them for free to some new players that do not know any better. causing them to pass them around to all their friends etc. And technically I don't think it violates any IP rights. Since a Profit has to be made from the sale of it. I can make a copy of my families software to tuck away and use to reload it on their computer if they loose their Original disks and not violate or be punished for doing so. But if I Started copying those copies and selling them to the public then chances are eventually I would be caught and prosecuted for making a profit off someone elses work.

SO in my opinion if Linden TRULY wishes to serve their online users of the whole user CREATED VR World Model, then this would make more since to impliment as a deterant than anything else. IMO That is what would be considered the difference between a user created world and a user COPIED world. I am sure many others here are sick and tired of the same ole cookie cutter VR worlds were every building looks alike. If you truly want to have a house or product that NOBODY would be able to have then BUY The Original. Sure sounds like that would boost the linden dollar Exchange rate back up.

Well isn't this problem the same as the Napster and the like?

Instead of it being the Music artists as victims of the actions of the relay service it is US as the artists

napsters defence I think was they are not the ones doing the recreation or distributing of Copy Righted Content AKA the music and such being passed through the napster service using the internet as the medium to allow the transfer.

Only this time the medium is layered....lol.... The medium is the SL virtual world relaying the Copyrighted material through the use of Avatars layered ontop of the internet. If our computers and the SL client are just like the Relay services Clients The only difference I see is that the Equipment responsible for housing and distributing the protected content to the User side Clients is operated by LL.

Am I wrong in this thinking? If I painted a masterpiece in the back room of a Gallery Operated by someone else and that Gallery agreed to PROTECT my masterpiece and provide me a place to show it and sell it at, wouldn't it also be That Galleries responsability to ensure someone doesnt set up a easil right next to mine and paint a copy of it?

Sorry for the long post

Hello I am new to SL and still learning as much as I can so if I say something NOOBISH that is why....

I read that thing and responces on the main SL page that Linden staff said they would read and consider that were stated as options. I couldn't post there so I am posting here I am still not sure if this is the correct spot.

I know SL is proud to be a NO LIMITS world. but as I read about this copy bot thing it seems to me that it would be with benifit to have a few at least.

I read that the reason CopyBot was created was for backup reasons well if so many people were wanting backup wouldn't it be a better plan for linden to offer the ability to backup your Designs after making sure they created the in world item? Even if they charged like they do for uploads i can still see this as a viable way to solve a problem the Artists, Designers, and Creators have been facing that resulted in someone putting that much time in creating Copybot to begin with.

Like a section in their account screen. They already have a system for showing all the transactions I wouldn't think it to be hard to simply follow the path of a item ID to the first person to have it in their inventory.

Like people Selling Linden $ to Noobs on ebay because they are not aware you get a better deal buying them direct from LL. Safer too...lol Thats my opinion at least.

I am not sure if linden staff would read this but my hope is maybe they would and can use the ideas.

I am still learning the creation parts of SL but so far I like it. It seems to me that in order to Copy a item you have to have access to the item.... I have not seen this copy bot but I am assuming it would be hard to copy something you do not have.

Wouldn't it fix the problem if all items were NOT allowed to copy? Like the originals were not allowed to be sold and original kept unless you put it in a LINDEN provided factory or something. If the factory was responsible for encrypting the items and reproducing them wouldn't that solve Alot of the troubles? The Creator could decide how many Copies will be made and a total limit allowed EVER imprinted on the item created.

I mean if you trully want the econamy to flourish (which I hope it will) Then making it so the only way to make more than one copy of an Item is to have the original seems to be a GREAT STEP. It sure would raise the value of the Originals and the Reseller industry if the very Artist That created it was not allowed to keep a copy of the original to make more copies of it. Just like exclusive manufacturing rights in the real world. The inventor is able to keep a copy of the product they create but they are not allowed to SELL anymore of them once you sign a contract with a distributer. Or like the Manufacture has to pay for raw materials to reproduce the item. Myself as a Creator if I had to pay a SMALL fee like $5L Per Item for it to be reproduced would be understood and just included in my sale price as a cost of doing business. It sure would cut down on the overloaded Asset System.

My thoughts would be it ALSO would make The Items Created worth more since the only person able to make more of them in Game would be just the ONE person that holds the Original Item. I like to both be a Reseller AND a Creator. It sure would help with BOTH abilities if as a reseller they would have to be directed to my location to be able to purchase the items. To Continue to replicate the same items over and over seems to me like eventully there would be so many similar items available that a Designer or Creator wouldn't have a better chance of selling a design Created Completly by them than someone using someone elses stuff.

Or am I just not understanding the problem? For me as a new Creator in SL I could see how someone just copying one of my items for personal use isn't a major problem. It would be troubling yes but in the long run it wouldn't ruin my ability to market and sell it. If it was built the way I stated above the only one able to allow for more copies to be made would be the one in my inventory.

Where I see a problem is reading that this Copybot has the ability to not only copy my items but then they can redistribute them for free to some new players that do not know any better. causing them to pass them around to all their friends etc. And technically I don't think it violates any IP rights. Since a Profit has to be made from the sale of it. I can make a copy of my families software to tuck away and use to reload it on their computer if they loose their Original disks and not violate or be punished for doing so. But if I Started copying those copies and selling them to the public then chances are eventually I would be caught and prosecuted for making a profit off someone elses work.

SO in my opinion if Linden TRULY wishes to serve their online users of the whole user CREATED VR World Model, then this would make more since to impliment as a deterant than anything else. IMO That is what would be considered the difference between a user created world and a user COPIED world. I am sure many others here are sick and tired of the same ole cookie cutter VR worlds were every building looks alike. If you truly want to have a house or product that NOBODY would be able to have then BUY The Original. Sure sounds like that would boost the linden dollar Exchange rate back up.

Well isn't this problem the same as the Napster and the like?

Instead of it being the Music artists as victims of the actions of the relay service it is US as the artists

napsters defence I think was they are not the ones doing the recreation or distributing of Copy Righted Content AKA the music and such being passed through the napster service using the internet as the medium to allow the transfer.

Only this time the medium is layered....lol.... The medium is the SL virtual world relaying the Copyrighted material through the use of Avatars layered ontop of the internet. If our computers and the SL client are just like the Relay services Clients The only difference I see is that the Equipment responsible for housing and distributing the protected content to the User side Clients is operated by LL.

Am I wrong in this thinking? If I painted a masterpiece in the back room of a Gallery Operated by someone else and that Gallery agreed to PROTECT my masterpiece and provide me a place to show it and sell it at, wouldn't it also be That Galleries responsability to ensure someone doesnt set up a easil right next to mine and paint a copy of it?

Sorry for the long post

Hello Shelbi

I think the main problem with your post is that, for SL to work on your PC, it HAS to download EVERYTHING you see - prim parameters, textures, etc. There are programmes available which allow a user to access these downloaded items and thus use them for their own benefit (I have to say my knowledge of all this is limited - it's not something I would ever condone and I have done no research on it; my comments are drawn from remembered posts on the fora.)

I think one has to accept that everything one creates in SL has a limited shelf life. Sooner or later, if you are a creator then you need to develop your product line, or watch sales take a dive, either because everyone has it, or it's been unmercifully copied and is now part of the "Business In A Box" issue. (I am NOT saying all BIABs are rip-offs - but some are! )

Inc

Distribution of copyrighted material is still an infringement whether you make a profit on it or not.

As far as I know, greed has actually kept copying in check on SL since the majority seems to want to profit from their ill-gotten goods. A copied skin that's being sold for L$200 with limited permissions for the next owner is far less damaging than that same skin floating around as a freebie for instance.

If you get the seller shut down you end the supply of new copies and all the existing copies are limited to the avies that bought them, a "freebie" on the other hand would suffer the same fate as the Celestial Passport skin that's still being passed around years after it was copied.

"Distribution of copyrighted material is still an infringement whether you make a profit on it or not. "

I am not a Lawyer but.... I did need to deal with this issue in my past. Some of the Laws in this nation are worded oddly.

From what I read from it if you pay for a copy of the IP in question in this case the skins or artwork etc. That law grants you the ability to make a back-up copy of it without infringing on anything. Like if i bought a CD and used a ripper to take from the CD to import into a ipod etc.

or in this situation I am thinking there may be a loophole that needs to be closed up through presidence being set. Technically if someone buys and pays for your material from a vendor then saves a copy of it to their hard drive, they are not in violation of the law.

I think where it becomes a violation is if they upload it from their computer to another place. Then that becomes distribution. Distribution means they are in control of something physically and either pass it to another person or upload it to another person.

The reason the Laws need to be revamped so to speak is from what I read about it LL is the ones in posession of the material and THEY are the ones responsable for distributing it.

Like if I had a Avatar that had someone elses artwork or creations on my vendors I am still technically not in posession of the material. It is all stored on LL systems. I may provide links etc. that would ALLOW someone to purchase that material but I think it would be hard to say in legal terms that distribution is taking place due to the way the laws are drafted. I would simply be showing someone else where the material is located at. At best it could likely be just a aiding the sale of Copyrighted material.

Not that I condone ANY of that stuff. This loophole and lack of clarity in the Law is the reason why MY best work has NEVER entered the WWW pipeline. The current wording and clarity on the Digital Media laws offers no protections if someone in a different country commits the infringment act against you.

Basically, Since i am in the USA I am bound by US Laws. but... someone is the neitherlands is not bound by the SAME laws regarding infringment. From what I read about LL's action regarding the issue is they do not choose to take a ACTIVE role in enforcing their directive of copyright safe virtual country.

They basically have setup a new country in this world and the name of the country is Second Life. It has residents from every corner of the Globe but due to a lack of official laws or legal system in the country of Second Life, they are leaving the responsability of enforcing US laws which from what I read it wants to use, up to the already overworked staff in charge of being the police force of the real life issues.

When I think about that difficult problem they are trying to deal with it just seems like a never ending battle the way it is currently structured. That is also the main reason my best work will remain where it is till the situation is corrected.

The only way I can see their current approch working is if they seperated each Resident to only be allowed to purchase items made by other users of the same country as their residence.

In My Opinion if someone is going to dump the responsability to enforce specific laws onto the governing countries of the residents then they also need to offer the ability to control and maintain that ability. The only other choice would be for LL to basically enact their OWN founding Documents containing Laws and create their OWN political structure and hire their OWN Judges and court staff.

If I started my own country with its own money and exchange rate in the finacial markets etc. I wouldn't expect some other country to police and enforce my rights as a ruler or govenor of that country. I would hire my own police force and political staff to govern the regions within it.

As I review all the documentation and such. It just seems like someone is trying to eat their cake and enjoy all the wonderful flavors it provides their taste buds but they do not wish to take the time and effort to mix the ingredients, poor the batter into a greesed pan, and bake it.

Well if someone wants to eat a piece of cake and doesn't want to bake it, they can always go to a bakery and buy a cake made by someone else. The troubles I see is LL still doesn't wish to pay for that cake made by someone else either. They instead have chosen to walk into the bakery and anounce "I AM taking this cake to eat, and you are going to enforce my rights to eat it."

Don't get me wrong I like very much the possibilities available using this platform. but their is no Laws to enforce and police these issues accross country lines in the Real World. With that firm understanding that LL has basically said it is up to the Residents/Customers to enforce their own Copyright issues by telling them to seek out recourse from their own Governing body for laws that do not exist seems a bit irresponsable to me.

Thats like them saying sorry their is currently no laws on the books to protect you now go spend YOUR own money to set president in the courts to protect our ability to provide you protection services in the future.

Yet they still do not wish to hire that police force even if they paid them in their OWN currency. I just do not see any Logic in those actions.

On a different topic. I bought all those BIB products to offer potential customers while I am creating my own line of products. Once open if any Designers, Artist, or Creators discovers one of their products in my offerings that was ill gotten a simple message asking me to remove it is all it would take for me to delete it from both my vendors and my inventory.

I am likely one of the very few people left that has not participated in those online music sharing services. I BUY MY MUSIC or listen to music supplied from a friend. So I am not one of those people who would intentionally sell someone elses product without their consent.

Shelbi,

Wow, I thought *I* wrote long posts.

Somewhere in there, you said,

"Thats like them saying sorry their is currently no laws on the books to protect you now go spend YOUR own money to set president in the courts to protect our ability to provide you protection services in the future. "

Yes. You got it. LL set up Second Life as a social experiment. Here's a world, people. Go and play in it. And that's just about ALL. SL has had an absolute minimum of rules imposed on residents by the Creators. When a dispute arises, they are as reluctant as God to step in and deal with the problem by miraculous intervention.

Recently, there have been modifications to the "hands off" policy, most of which have been caused by the impingement of Real World laws on Second Life activities. Gambling, child pornography, collection of taxes, and unregulated banking are all issues that LL has addressed in the past year. Even then, LL has done the minimum necessary to comply with external laws.

This is "Your World, Your Imagination" here. Laws and oversight and regulation would all interfere with that concept, imposing somebody else's vision on our freedoms.

The downside, of course, is that unscrupulous people are free to take advantage. Some do. IP theft is one of the most frequent offenses.

All of the things you suggest would be wonderful, but in this case, they would be very hard or impossible to implement, even if LL wanted to. Copying of digital content is a problem that extends far beyond Second Life. The difficulty in preventing it lies in the very technologies that we wish to embrace: your computer is (theoretically) capable of making an unlimited number of perfect copies of any data that it contains.

I don't have the answers. I just try to remember not to collect too much bad karma, because eventually I'll have to pay for it.

When it comes to IP infringement people generally don't want LL to comply (they already do), they just want LL to be an IP judge and rule in their favour which is an authority they simply don't have and something that's likely to get them in trouble if they make the wrong call at some point.

If A and B are both selling the identical skin, either can file a DMCA against the other and the other can file a counterclaim in which case the filer either gives up or takes the matter to court.

If LL were to step in and decide that because A uploaded first the copyright must belong to A and B ends with their account seized and banned and then later a court decides that B is actually the original copyright owner then LL is probably next on the "to sue" list for the damages they caused B.

---

Second Life also isn't a terrority that stands on its own where LL can make up any rules they feel like, it is foremost subject to US law due to the fact that the servers are located on US soil and because LL is a US company. Any resident is subject to the same US laws in addition to their own country's laws (if they're not from the US).

Any loopholes we may have are mostly due to the fact that SL was just too small to either get noticed or to have anyone care about what happened on the grid. The more popular it (or other virtual worlds) becomes, the more you'll see RL laws intrude and become enforced in SL.

Not all Copybot's are copybots....

We just found one that is sold as Copybot V.15 and is advertise as a Copybot.

But what really happens is that you pay 6000L for it when you purchase it. Then when you rez it it simply selfdestructs. And like that the seller scamed you from 6000L.

If I did not have doubts about that I could actually get in trouble if I mentioned the avatar name of a guy like this I would do it.

However I dont mind telling about the inworld URL where it happens. Then you at least know where not you purcahse your copybot. Just in case you SHOULD be lowlife enough to want one of those.

The scam version is on this sim: Kaona

but DONT PURCHASE IT.....

Old news....

Copybot never vanished in the first place.
It's just harder to get the new code now.

Think its bad now? Wait till they make the server side open source. It's over at that point.

http://foo.secondlifeherald.com/slh/2008/03/more-copybot-dr.html

It's alive and kicking!

We don't need copybot there is software versions out there that steal things for people who want it.