Land Prices?

Its obvious that the guy did not do enough research into your tortured past to find out how much distress the pixellated palm trees were going to create in your pretend life in the virtual world, thereby ruining your enjoyment. What a heartless creep, in fact I think he may be a sociopath.

And here we have another answer: Value added is in the eye of the beholder. Some people (and I have dealt with them before) will not be happy until they have a whole sim for WAY under market price, tier-free, with a custom build and 24-hour phone support for all their land needs AND psychological needs, all provided by the landlord who made a tidy $400L profit off the sale or rental of the land.

Fact of the matter folks, it's a free market. Buy low sell high is the name of the game. complaining about "adding value" or not isn't going to change anything..

As far as the price being "too high"... I have never purchased a parcel of land that was priced too high. And I never will.

Because when parcels are priced too high, I don't buy them. No one is holding a gun to my head forcing me to press the "buy" button on an inflated piece of land. Everyone else is free to do the same.

For some reason we never see threads started by flippers/swoopers/barons saying that people are not willing to buy the land they are holding for the low, low value added price they are offering it.

There is another thread about someone who can't sell his estate land, but I don't think that one is a flipper.

I started the "adding value" comment about 10 pages ago. The point was, I don't care if people want to speculate on land. Flip away and enjoy it. My complaint was about notorious flippers coming in here, masquerading as productive, concerned citizens, lobbying the community and LL to keep prices stable because she bought a bunch of land during the VAT fiasco. Many of us simply see right through that, and won't stand for the BS.

LOL I get it.

My comment applies to that person too. If a flipper paid too high a price for land, that is their own fault and they shouldn't have paid that price either. Coming to a forum and whining that you paid too high a price, well, that's on you IMO. (not you Avion but anyone who does that)

Lobbying the community & LL to keep prices stable isn't going to do anything for that person.

It is the nature of the land market in SL and LL likes it that way, they collect a lot more tier from land changing hands several times a month between residents than they ever would if everyone just bought their parcel and stuck with it.

Exactly Elanthius!

On a separate note, if anyone wants to see expensive mainland, check my Picks.

OK.
"Buy low sell high is the name of the game."
Gotcha.
So can we cut the vision / janitorial / create economic and social diversity noises?

Since I have been in SL, I can name only six things that LL has done as far as exerting any control over the Mainland:

1) They created new continents and released new sims.

2) They occasionally have cleaned up objects left on Linden land.

3) They banned casinos, and public age play.

4) They made any land that is joined or divided default to not for sale so land swoopers could not snatch land that was accidentally left for sale when people were joining or dividing land.

5) The new public works project.

6) The recent action against ad farmers.

Other than that, they leave the Mainland alone and happily collect their tier. Land brokers and landbot runners are free to go about their business. There aren't any rules governing the mainland economy as far as I can see. They don't get involved when someone loses their land by setting it for too low a price or setting it to anyone when they mean to set it to a specific person.

So I think any complaints should be directed at LL, not the people who are working within the rules as they stand right now.

I hope people choose to do the right thing, like giving back a mistake if they end up with land that was set too low.

But if a seller doesn't feel like adding one $L's worth of value to the land he bought before resetting it for sale at a higher price, that's his perogative.

Oh, I know they were trying to be... just not trying very hard. It's a lack of attention to detail that I just don't understand. How much effort does it take to notice whether you're selling beach land or something deep inland?

Your post makes me wonder, though, if mine came across the wrong way. All those exclamation marks were more about boggled WTF-ness than anything else.

Talon, done. I'll check if they're transferable as soon as I get in-world.

And I'll add a semi-ditto to Avion's comment at #177. I think land flipping, when taken to the extent some take it, is wrong -- but these days it's also a relatively minor annoyance in the context of other SL problems. (I wouldn't have said that this time last year.) What gets my dander up isn't people land-flipping; it's people land-flipping and then claiming that their selfish game is actually a valuable community service and doing it in a forum where newbies are still asking if they should become land speculators themselves.

I'm not sure what complaints about LL really have to do with it. Sure, land owners have the right to do whatever they want, and I for one have never argued that they shouldn't have that right. But having the right to do something doesn't mean that it _is_ right to do it.

By and large, we do not make being an asshat a TOS violation - the exception being land extortion. So people that make things more difficult for others in the economy are free to do so. I wasn't saying that flipping should be against TOS. Nor do I think that LL should make flipping against TOS, so no complaint should be directed at LL. I would hope that people would choose to do the right thing, but some won't. It's like Anshe Chung doing her 10 Lindens thing - an asshat move, to be sure, but it is her right. No one is calling for that level of undercutting to be a TOS violation, but that doesn't mean that we can't air our displeasure.

I don't disagree. But people trying to profit without doing much to add value to either world aren't going to go away anytime soon.

Can I air my displeasure at ticket scalpers, Walmart and record labels here?

Hey Sling, you are starting to seem like a weird creepy post-stalker.

I happen to have a different opinion than you. That does not mean that I am obligated to fulfill a "mission" for you, state that I would like to have my hand or ear cut off, or quit posting my opinions.

I DO believe that flippers add value, however, "buy low, sell high" is something that more people understand.

I agree that to make a profit is human nature......

For example, the other day in World of Warcraft I purchased 15 stacks (20 items per stack) of runecloth from someone who clearly was so desperate to sell he had not done his homework first.

I paid 40 silver per stack.

In more normal times runecloth will retail on the main auction houses for around 4 to 5 gold per stack. However all virtual economies (like real ones) go through boom and bust and runecloth is very depressed at present on my realm. The reason why is that its main use is making bandages to enhance health for higher-level players. But higher-level players are not fighting so much at present due to the wait for The Litch King expansion.

Hence the depressed price of runecloth. And in WoW inventory space is limited although there are some work around’s, unlike that of SL

So, an investment in the future at the cost of using valuable storage space NOW is perhaps the key here, a logical deduction you might think folks.

However.....the person who sold me the runecloth could have sold the same to an in house WoW vendor for 80 silver per stack......of which I can and will now make a guaranteed 100% profit -

That is actually why I sort of support land bots within SL. There are enough of them to be fairly certain you can nearly always get an instant sale of unwanted land at a forced sale value, close to the "fair value" price set by the market.......In one way that is more fair than the WoW system where you can get shafted.

Do I feel guilty about exploiting this person? No..... because he should have done his homework first. Sorry to be blunt

LOL Rockwell.
I came across some of it while wandering about SL yesterday.

"expensive mainland"is poor a word for it.
What you have laid out for our delectation is really a form of SL art.

When I think of "land-flippers", I remember how I first became aware of the practice fairly early in my SL.

I was looking at a parcel on sale and idly thinking about what might look well on that terrain if I were to buy it.
An avatar appeared and bought the parcel.
Seconds later the parcel was back on sale again at a higher price and the avatar had disappeared.

I see speculators in RL. But in RL, even speculators have to go to some trouble.
For me, SL is all about a creative fun environment. People are empowered to create things in SL in a way that would be impossible in RL and very difficult in a 2D virtual space.
The massive contrast between that creative potential and that instant flip for cash made a huge impression on me.

To "head 'em off at the pass":
No. I wasn't pissed off because someone had bought the land. I was simply window-shopping - looking around at what people were building and imagining what could be done in different places.

People who profit like that are not going to go away in SL or RL.
They are not contravening TOS or any law.
Their activity just sucks bigtime.

"Your World, Your Imagination" is a concept that has stuck with me.

I agree, John. This is a valid workable manner in which to have a business. As long as the price point is acceptable to the market, all the power to you, Joy.



I disagree with you, Isablan. Joy and others in the land market, invest time and money both. They may not spend a great deal of time in the actual purchase, but they need to do their homework to determine at what price point they will buy and what sale price point the market will bear. They also need to prep the land for sale, if necessary. Paying tier is no small thing either and is definately a financial investment.

Also, a successful realtor often provides some customer service as land purchasers IM requesting different parcel sizes to be set for sale or wishing to negotiate land prices. It doesn't behoove a realtor to ignore IMs from potential purchasers, thus increasing their time spent. They may not be investing as much time as say a fashion designer, but time is invested and their profit margin is often considerably smaller as well per item sold.



I completely agree, Snowflake. This is not unlike people who have yard sale or antiquing hobbies in RL. They hunt for good deals and resell them. It's also the name of the game with stock market. There is no added value to either of the above three mentioned scenarios typically, but I don't see anyone taking issue the fact they each make money on a transaction. Personally, whoever runs my IRA accounts I would damn well hope would buy low and sell high! It's capitalism at work and if you sell too high you eat your profits. No added value is needed and disparaging those that are land investors/realtors is judgemental at best in my opinion. But, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

P.S. If I keep this up, I'm going to become a regular poster. *wonders if this is a good thing or not*

I think that's kind of the complaint though - that in the presence of land flippers/land bots, nobody who is _not_ a land flipper/bot will ever "get lucky" on the price of a parcel of land, and yet at the same time the people actually selling the land originally still only get to sell at the lower price.

Essentially it's arbitrage, but economists will tell you that in a healthy market arbitrage should be eliminated.

to help put it in perspective:

my alt has a really nice parcel that my neighbors are begging to buy from me. i set it for sale at 30m because they told me they were going to sell somewhere else and buy my whole parcel (after they realized i would not break it up for them).

the price was based on the buyers willingness to pay.

i wondered to myself "why are they so willing to pay such a high price?" and then i realized i'm in a no-lag zone, it's pretty waterfront, and it's quiet.

so, i took it off the market, because i am quite happy there, and no price will replace the lucky spot i have now. i got a little greedy for a minute, but thankfully that brain fart passed before i lost my nice location that took me MONTHS to find.

I see three separate points here, Yumi. The first being that no one but flippers/land bots will get lucky enough to pick up a lower priced parcel. I do agree the majority of the time that will be the case. It's unlikely you'll find a steal out there. For the most part, people need to make their own luck should they find a piece of land they like by speaking with the current owner and asking them to please notify them should they ever wish to sell. I have become fortunate in that regard a number of times. It's how I picked up most of the land I own in Periwinkle.

I disagree with your second point that people can only sell their land at lower prices. People can set their land for sale at whatever price they wish. Their land generally won't sell it if it's set too high. They may have to wait for a sale if it's set at market value, but eventually it will sell. For those that wish to sell quickly, they can obviously set the sale price below market value to encourage a quick sale. The loss they incur for selling below market rate is simply the price they must pay to unload quickly which is exactly how the RL market works. However, if the land they own is highly sought after, they can get significantly higher than market value prices.

The third point, that economists feel arbritrage should be eliminated in a healthy market isn't necessarily held universally by all economists and that a variety of types of arbitrage are acceptable. It is most commonly found in bond, stock, currency and commodities markets. Again, here economists have varied opinions. Though I'm not an expert here, this is my understanding of arbitrage and it's place in the economy.

angel

Well, now we come to the crux of all arguments regarding land pricing. Which is the "market." In classic ecomonics market price is set based on supply and demand. Becuase of bots and flippers, land pricing in SL tends to be set at an artificial price floor determined by what land speculators THINK the market price should be - meaning what they think they can sell it for (frequently to other resellers.) During boom times I've watched the same parcel flip back and forth between resellers 8 to 10 times. As someone pointed out above, there are no values anymore to the end user -- the buyer who truly represents the "market." The end user never gets to buy "on sale" unless they can manage a transaction that doesn't involve land being listed on the Linden system.

The end user is the person who drives the SL economy, not the bot runner or flipper. LL makes a hell of a lot more money on small landowners rather than those holding several sims worth of land for resale. When too much property lies fallow (as it does both in SL and RL in the USA right now) the entire segment surrounding it suffers. New home owners/buyers are a critical source of income for furniture makers, home improvement retailers, landscape supply retailers, etc...

An astounding amount of land is for sale on the grid, which frankly translates out into too many resellers chasing too few buyers at the current price point.

Which means they are paying and astounding amount of tier and supporting the economy we all depend on staying healthy to keep SL running.

Not anybody has the skills it takes to be a successful land broker. In the days I was doing it, you had to be quick, smart on which parcels were worth buying, smart on how you worded the land description, creative as far as making the terra look as attractive as possible and how much you set the land back for sale for. You also had to have a ton of time to invest.

Today I don't even see how it's worthwhile given that bots get all the land with decent profit margins.

Now I make money the old fashioned way. Selling drugs to school kids in RL.

I'm sorry, Raymond, but that is BS. A handfull of people paying tier at discounted rates on barren land is not supporting the ecomony - all that is supporting is the bank accounts of land speculators. What supports the economy are hundreds of small landowners paying lots more tier happily building away and buying plants, furniture and houses for their land. Empty land does not support the SL economy and more than empty houses in RL support the economy.

And being part of a community Isablan. (Yes I agree with the rest of your post love)

I willingly dropped a hundred pounds into my little plot and business, I know I will almost certainly not get a return, but it’s a fair price to pay to belong. I can afford to do it, and it’s only the price of a meal out for 2 with wine. Loads of people like that create an economy

Hit the nail on the head, Isablan. The flippers are market makers and price the land at prices that they think will move, but often end up discounting the land and selling to another reseller. A few parcels do move, thanks to people whose pain thresholds are higher. But for the stuff to move quickly into the hands of end users, the land would have to be priced much lower than where it is now, and LL would need to get the auctions moving to meet the demand.

But regarding the last point - part of the problem is the auction winners buying at too high a price. Land speculators as market makers induce auction purchasers to buy at inflated prices - because so many speculators are willing to gamble, the auction winners fight tooth and nail to win at auction, resulting in them paying base prices well over 7 to 10 L/m2. For a time I had to wonder if they were winning the auctions just to mark the land down. We'll see how that works out...

SL's economy is artificial with Linden Lab controlling the amount of land released and the amount of stiped it will pay out. Regardless who is buying the land, land flppers or individuals, it is still based on supply and demand. Someone feels the price is reasonable and purchases the land. As land prices fluctuate investors change their price points which accounts for repetitive land flipper purchases. It's still supply and demand based on investors trying to maximize their tier. If they have unused tier, it makes sense for them to purchase land to fill the gap at the price point they feel is reasonable.



I agree as stated in my previous post. Individuals need to make their own luck and not rely solely on the posted land sales.



I agree, Isablan, but even if the price for land were lower it is not a forgone conclusion that the majority of individuals are going to buy the land, pay tier, build a home and fill it with goods. Many in SL prefer to rent lots not own their own parcel. Many don't want to pay for a premium account and pay tier. Many can't afford either option. If the current rates are average and there is a lot of land for sale, prices will lower. Once done, some will purchase land, though I doubt people will do so in droves.



Ditto, John. Alexin and I have spent more money than I care to count over the last 4 years in land, tier, and all the assorted goodies that come with developing a mainland sim. Prices have risen and fallen repeatedly over this time period. I've found land buying is mainly a matter of patience and perseverance which is not always easy for me as I generally don't have a great deal of patience.

angel

I don't see the problem with land resellers playing their own little mini game and I don't see how that has an impact on furniture makers. There is plenty of land available and plenty of people choose to rent, which is actually what we all do. Owning land in SL is simply not the investment it is in RL. You can rent from someone inworld for less than the cost of premium membership and tier fees.

Land resellers actually keep the price of land down, if supply got anywhere near to demand for "end users" then land prices would sky rocket.

Tier fees are the bigger barrier to land ownership and the jumps in tier pricing are too steep.