SLCC 2008 Fashion Track Feedback & Discussion

Hey there...
I am not sure really, something unisex, that I can use for both clothing and animations/gadgets... I'd like to be able to use the same logo for my ads, and just the icon/symbol portion of it to actually brand things... I have gone through two logos already and neither really satisfied me =/ something I will want to use long term

Eep I didn't notice your reply. Sorry : /
If you still need help I'll IM ya in-world.
I have a few ideas that might stick!

Maddy

I think the problem implementing SL to RL fashions is that a great many of us (at least for the ladies) would get very disappointed in design and execution for sizes over 3. I know my av's somewhat skinny (not the far left to say the least), but a lot of what I think looks good for my av, would NEVER play out on anyone above that size 3 in RL. I personally like a lot of the costume designs because just about everything in SL I can already buy in RL (casual to lingerie to leather, you just have to know where to look), or at the very least a close copy of. What you can't buy, you couldn't wear in reality anyways.

The costuming however, there are a great many unique ideas in there, that would be fabulous. One in particular was a burlesque style, with all the attachments ready to go. I think a big issue of this design coming to RL is to have to have it as a package deal as well. I'm not paying 1k USD to buy 10 pieces separately. I might pay a few hundreds all at once though.

Pricing would have to be damn near rock bottom. How many of us own REAL couture dresses? I barely pay 70 bucks for a formal for my cruises, and while the designs of some gowns in here may be worth hundreds, I'm almost sure that would put them out of reach of the average SL person who would follow that sort of thing.

Also, the biggest hit items seem to have scripts in them a lot of the time. So that also makes it unrealistic. The big draw on shoes is color change. Otherwise, not much different than I can get between several RL stores.

I've also seen quite a large amount of designers ripping off from RL, so it'd be a huge hurdle to verify each design through different outlets for the sake of lawsuits.

If you can overcome some of this, or think of a way to combat it all, I think it'd be a great idea.

Thanks for your thoughts! I think that all in all each designer has his/her own separate style and niche whether it's couture, costume, or what have you. I think what is important is for each designer that wants to accomplish this to focus on what THEY want to bring to the RL market.

In RL fashion, copyright is virtually non-existant. There are ways to seek a bit of protection on highly detailed items that contain elements of copyrighted artwork for instance, but there is not much that can be done about rip-offs of clothing. So whether or not you can find it in the RL marketplace is not what should drive you, it's whether or not you can get YOUR designs in the market place and get them sold BEFORE the knock off artists come!

I agree there may be designs ripped off from thr real world of fashion here in SL but to be honest, I don't see what the RL designers can do about it. They have no copyright protection. This has been an ongoing battle for years in the fashion community.

Here are some links to resources to read up on it further:

http://www.expertbusinesssource.com/blog/720000272/post/700011870.html?nid=3433
http://www.publicknowledge.org/node/576

Hope this helps!
Maddy

Also to add (Editing doesn't work to well):

Also you have to ask yourself who your target market is. If you plan on selling couture drresses to the rich and famous at $7000 a piece then your quality needs to be high and you should expect to be knocked off. However if you plan on selling to everyone who ISN'T rich and famous for let's say $50 to $200 a dress, you can still expect to get your designs ripped off.

LOL

*chuckles* And this is different from SL how?

Frankly, the problem with the RL fashion industry is.. well, fashion. One hopes to set the trends and this means that others are going to do their best to copy your designs as they can.

People spending the big bucks for the clothing aren't paying (or buying for that matter) the clothing.. they are paying for the label and the implied titles of that label. In some cases, they are also paying for the time and effort of getting the outfit or dress to the exact fit for their own unique shapes that also come with the label.

I have always wanted to try this: Two dresses from the same manufacturer, only thing different is the label/price tag and see what people say on quality

I agree. You got it spot on.

The label is everything... as well as who puts it on the runway first and has the better marketing strategy and the biggest marketing budget. But like I said, if any designers are going to try to do this as I did, you cannot worry about what all the other big name designers are doing and who will rip you off, you have to concentrate on what YOU want to do and work on establishing your brand and product.

Although there are many rip offs in SL that were taken from RL I know too that there are some talented designers who "create". Those are the designs I would LOVE to see in RL. Those are the individual's I am hoping to inspire.

...and to add (sorry I type faster than I can think some days)...

The difference between SL and RL regarding fashion is that in SL we DO hold IP rights to our designs because they are actually digitally based. They are actually something that you can send in to be copyrighted. However, in RL it's not that easy. It wouldn't surprise me if one day RL design houses poked their nose into SL every now and then to grab some designs (if they are not already). (giggles).

Now in SL it is hard to see who is ripping off your designs and hard to control as I have seen with some designers of skins lately. But anyone who is determined and willing to protect their SL designs has a means of doing so where in RL you have little to no chance.

are you talking rl here? if so, there is a HUGE difference in quality. it may not be noticable in a photo, but when you compare side by side the difference is stark. the fabric used, the cut and lie, the seamwork, etc is like night and day.

I think what Raudf meant was two different labels getting the same dress made from the same manufacturer, same materials etc (which happens) and slap a notable label on one, and a label we have never heard of on another...lay them out and see what people say about the quality.

I *think* that is what Raudf meant.

Well I tried the whole branding thing and I can't get a logo small enough that doesn't look smeared and still in search of a new logo anyways, not an easy task it seems =/
What's on your mind?

ETA: Sorry it came out so long, I swear it didn't look like it when I typed it up!

Actually there are property rights to designs in the RW and in fact, many designs are copyrighted. You must make at least several changes to the design as a knock off. Thread used, material/fabric used, stitching used, etc. Same with perfumes, there are knock offs, but they must use at least (I want to say) 10 different notes in making the knock off. To argue that if someone ripped off the RW style into SL and could eventually make it as a knock off in RL, would be quite an overstatement. Anything worth knocking off for profit is essentially already done by places like K-Mart, Wal-Mart, Kohl's and Target.

There are subtle but VERY noticeable differences to those would care to pay that much.

While I appreciate, at least in theory, the thought that the famous pay that much - they also don't pay that much from unknown designers. The market is starting to flood with known designers and while it *could* be possible that someone could sell to the rich and famous, the amount of work, production and marketing that would have to go behind that would be unrealistic from a sponsoring company's standpoint. Additionally, there are quite a few fashion houses that are famous but female celebs still go almost always with the big 3 - Vera Wang, Versace, and Donna Karen, while most men stick with Versace, Armani and Ralph Lauren. Those top 6 are extremely hard to beat when it comes to label appeal for high quality, top market fashion. Marketing would be a nightmare for some, and they wouldn't go near it simply because the only draw for a designer would be they could draw in photoshop. I know of only 1 single designer in SL that can actually concept and create the designs in RL. Therefore, the creations on the large end of the money wouldn't have the draw of handmade by the designer, nor was the designer able to pitch their own creation. They are merely concept people, which is not a position in the fashion world essentially. Many people can come up with designs, but the draw and knowledge of working patterns is coming from knowing how to create it in RL.

Your biggest draw from marketing would be to market to the SL community. While I appreciate the designers in SL for their work in photoshop, if I were to say Image Reflections (name dropping only for ease of example) to someone outside of SL, they'd be like... huh? If I say it to the shopping person in SL, they'd start listing off the outfits they love. There are hundreds of thousands of yearly graduates from design school, that are already competing in the world of fashion. IMO, they have a leg up because of "formal" education. If they were to apply for/shop around designs to fashion designing companies, a resume from one would be that they spent several years, got certified and can bring several outfits they handmade versus the average SL creator who comes in with pixel drawings and targa sheets, with no real world experience.

Frankly, like I said, outside of the costuming (which isn't a very huge niche in RL as compared to lingerie or casual clotes) there really isn't much that I can't get already. And chances are, they are in mass production from companies that could offer lower prices than a start up company. Additionally, there really aren't any "name brands" in designing so people really ARE paying for the costume itself, rather than the label.

One other point I'd like to make, is that for a lot of shoppers in SL, the big draw is how many different styles/choices/attachments they can get for 1 price all boxed up. The RL market is into separates and paying an individual price for each. (Think the wonderful craze of bikini separates, where you pay twice the price to get what you could ten years ago together.)

If you gave me 1000USD, 20 outfits to replicate from SL and 1 week. I could either find the exact same outfit ripped into SL, or complete the entire outfit from RL already.

A last point to make, would be that you are inviting a VERY large Pandora's Box. There are legit designers, but I suspect far more than just a few pulled an outfit at least once or twice from RL, or are using logo's in here to make a profit. If it were to be publicized enough, it could possibly bring attention we've avoided in the infringement area, simply due to the fact that RL designers have not been made aware that the design/logo is sold for profit. Wouldn't it be hilarious to think Hugh Hefner played SL though? But just think of all the Playboy bunny rips, Hello Kitty, etc. in so many designs. By bringing this out, it's essentially an open invitation to come look around SL for what could open a very litigious tone.

I'm seriously not trying to beat designers down with all this (in fact, I'm one... really crappy one, but I am one), it's just some very real things that have to be dealt with before hopes get too high, or the entire process is thought from every angle.

Yes, this is what Raudf meant before the 5 cups of coffee kicked in and her brain went on a nice trip to it's crazy place.

RL fashion is different in that. In SL we do seem to rely more on quality than label, which is a much better standard if you ask me.. although some labels do imply a certain standard of quality, because they've worked hard to earn that!

While I can appreciate your honesty I have to say that if anyone were to stop projects based on what you just said, not much would get done. Yes there ARE legit designers in SL; very many who design from their imagination and not from the RL work of others. A "Pandora's Box" would be more like recreating every design that every designer handed to me in RL and whether it was ripped or not.

However, I do not see how any designers would be dishonest enough to claim that they created something to have it produced in RL when they know that they did not. But perhaps you are playing devils advocate. What if someone DID do that? The reality is I would not have the real life design in hand. I would be assisting the designer to create the design from their SL rendering of it. How likely is it that a Vera Wang Gown they created would come out exactly the same as the one they initially copied it from? Very unlikely.

This is one good reason why there is no copyright on clothing. Someone else COULD VERY WELL make a plain yellow dress with big stitching at the bottom without ever having seen mine before. How many designers have made little black dresses that look exactly alike? Are they copying eachother? Who came out with it first? Who's making the ripped copies? The answer the U.S. Government gives us is "Who Cares". Shocking but true.

If you make a seamless texture that you can have copyrighted, have fabric made from that copyrighted texture, send that fabric to your manufacturer, tell them to "Make this Vera Wang Dress" with THIS fabric. Then if someone comes and rips THAT and the fabric is the SAME, you just might have a case...if you have the resources. In many cases if you don't have the resources and the person ripping you off DOES, there may be little you can do.

There are various elements that can be copyrighted and of course your logo can be trademarked, but stitching, etc is not copyrightable. When you see a rip off of Nike shoes for example, they are pretty much the same thing, the big difference is the SWOOSH you see on it. Nike is not likely to sue a company that rips off their shoes....unless they put that SWOOSH on it

I am not certain if you are understanding the reason for this thread or if we are just getting off topic a bit, but let's try to get back on track. Your concerns do matter, but they have been taken into consideration. What we are looking for is designers who ARE interested in having their RL fashions created in RL. Maybe I should add that those designs should be their own creations LOL.

Hugz,
Maddy

I notice that your logos tend to be on the "majestic" side. So I would go with that...the shields, the facing lions, etc...but there is something that you have not tried yet...and I am working on it right now, I'm working up a few different prototypes for you.

Gimme 'bout an hour


...oh and unisex right?...yep got it!

It was a pleasure meeting you at SLCC and I would love to help w/planning a fashion track for SLCC 2008! Feel free to IM me in world, MadamG!

k Done!
Sending you something in world...
Keep in mind these are just serving suggestions !

Hugz,
Maddy

I'm sorry, I must not have read this in your first post:



And that being a catalyst for the drive for this.

You are misunderstanding what I'm reading, and quite a large part of it. The first that stood out, I didn't say stitching was copyrighted, I said that to change from a copyrighted design, variables such as stitching would have to be changed. Levi actually made this a staple and a huge sentiment in a recent case.

You are also incorrect about there being no copyrights on clothing. The specific garment made up cannot be copyrighted, however, the copyright protects the visual pictoral, graphic and sculptural elements. Sculptural elements entails that fabric, type of stitching and thread etc. And in fact, though you may not create the 'exact' same gown, it's in the essence which is protected under the pictoral element. If it appears to be the exact same, even if you did use different faux materials, then it's still in violation. Depending on the item, the legal fees and judgement can range in the millions.

And in fact, if we were to get very legal (which is always a chance when you are displaying works), virtual intellectual property is NOT protected for real world works. It would be under concept and therefore is not protected in the least. If you were to simply have the drawing of the item, it's not considered tangible. Additionally, since you can't copyright the initial design, you are also opening up designers to be ripped off. They come to you, you present their designs, Versace watches and creates them without payment. There is no legal recourse against this.

I also never said about someone ripping entire store off, but it's very likely that at least 1 item in every designers shelf is either influenced or copied to the best of their ability from RL. It cannot be up to us to judge whether or not it's close enough and the only way to find out is to take it to court. Who has the cash for that?

While you admit that you do not have the RL copies in hand when you were to present these fashions, this is a HUGE issue. Simply because you'd be presenting them on behalf of others, or themselves and without a legal team, cannot properly defend yourself and can find yourself sued in no time with a simple whisper of "is that a knock off"?

I'd also suggest keeping up with current legislation that is being proposed in the US (design piracy act) about disallowing knock offs clearly. Simply because, a lot of the creations, as I said, whether intentional or not, I can find in the RW. If you unknowingly create a form of knock off, close enough to the depiction of the original, you are still liable.

As another note, you'd need a legal consultant if you are wishing others to release to you to show their designs. There are several scenarios that could get you in serious trouble without the proper contracts in place.

I'm not sure where you think it's the government who goes after those who violate. They have the attitude of "Who cares" because they don't. They have no thing to do with anything beyond registration. The legal teams from the companies who are almost always on retainer and just waiting for things like this are the ones who start with cease and desist and in some cases, already place documents for prosecution in a civil court.

I honestly suggest (nicely of course, I'm not saying this in a snide tone) that you really delve into the legal aspects of this. It's commendable you want to help, it really is. But I don't think you've really considered the scope of bringing something like this to life in the real world, nor do you fully understand what you are talking about when it comes to these laws, and that is VERY dangerous (not for only others, but for you too).

Like I said, please do research...and by all means consult with an attorney. I think you are getting off into a very broad discussion which typically would be best suited as a one on one with an attorney for specific details (not an "everyone's designs are copyrightable" type thing which you seem to be bringing to the table.) I am not here to engage in a legal battle of words with you. I have already consulted with an attorney for what I am doing. I know what my boundaries are and I know what I personally have been advised based on my project and my needs.

Bringing SL Fashion to RL is the title of the presentation that I gave at SLCC in Chicago this year. If you read my initial post, this thread is here to discuss a Fashion Track for 2008, not legal issues.

Although I do appreciate your enthusiasm on the topic, do you think you might try starting another thread? I think those who have read the information I provided are well aware of my capabilities and know what the focus is here.

Let's keep this thread on track please. Thanks!


FYI:
http://www.copyright.gov/docs/regstat072706.html
http://www.copywrites.info/content.cfm/Article/70771/LEGISLATION-TO-COMBAT-DESIGN-PIRACY.html

Thank you Tamara! I'll do that!