Third or fourth time returning, still can't find my place here

So what do I do now?

I've hopped back into Second Life yet again, after another six-month absense. And I have found I am as encouraged to stay as I was when i last left.

Past the really stupid name (Second Life), this program has potential. I like building in it. I like making new things and getting all the gears and clicks to work properly together.

But ultimately, nothing that is 'popular' in this program appeals to me. I'm not here for sex; that alone eliminates at least half the most common uses here. Nor am I here to escape reality, to pretend I am something I am not; I have a very fulfilling life and see no reason to replace it, and even if it wasn't that great that would just be good motivation to fix it and improve myself, not to replace it. I am not here to play real-time games; Second Life is actually really poor at this, any other game I could jump into would perform more efficiently and with less lag and bugs.

Given that, I'm not sure what there is to do. I'm all for meeting new people, but everyone I meet seems so engrossed in becoming some sort of alternate character. The 'Second Life' the program is poorly named after.

I hate that name. Admit to someone in 'real life' that you design models in 3d. Then admit that you code your own processes to make these 3d models move around and interact with their environment. Certainly these are a bit geeky as hobbies but still things I would feel no shame in admitting.

Now tell them "I play Second Life". The name alone suggests I am trying to escape my own life, that I'm ashamed enough of myself to try to live as someone else. It's not something I would tell anyone in public. Being a 'Second Lifer' is not something I can publicly be proud of. The name is stupid. It's all the things I DON'T want to do with this program.

So where does that leave me? I have a difficult time finding people who are not engrossed in the illusion. Anyone who is even semi-decent at constructing or being creative with the program is desperately trying to make money with it. Even my own designs, people tell me I should sell them. I do not see the point. I want to create for the sake of creating, I want to share and collaborate with people, without corrupting the end-goal via desperately marketing it. I find this is rare here.

So I suppose I seek kindred. I'm posting this and then leaving, again, as I still can't find a reason to remain. I seek somewhere that is not engrossed in the illusion, that is not desperately trying to market itself, that is truly here to create and have fun.

Let me know if you find it.

- Vil

Perhaps you should pay to get an account in your own name, and get an avatar made that looks like your real self. That might reduce the feeling of being forced to adopt an unwanted "Second Life".

Considering he pretty much just told many of us we are doing something shameful and unspeakable, I might suggest the OP uninstalls SL and not return again. It sounds like it is not your thing. Or just wait until it is fully Facebooked. That should be happening soon.

You might try some of the alternate grids. That way you don't have to use the phrase "Second Life" but can say "OpenSim". They're hungry for people.

I guess it would be useless to mention that you can have Jiggly boobs in *name redacted* now.

The avatars here fit into the uncanny valley for me. They are real without being 'real enough'. So they just end up seeming creepy to me. Constantly smiling, staring off into space vacantly, shifting their posture drastically every 5-10 seconds. I communicate with body language, and SL avatars look just real enough that I am constantly trying to 'read' them. They're like dolls, shifting in place, asking in garbled language if I want to come home with them. This is an exaggeration, but they're still more creepy then comfortable to me.

The lack of facial expressions during conversation is unsettling, but it can be gotten around. I just feel that the avatar does not accurately represent the interest and intentions of the person controlling it. For one, when the head looks one way, the person is not necessarily looking there. Most people, I have found, use the camera controls to look around things. This is where their attention ACTUALLY is. I built a little script that finds the location and rotation of the camera and follows it with an object you can customize, and have been using it for this reason. I can communicate my interest, and my attention, non-verbally. I find that this 'camera' is a truer representation of myself.

I run around as a mini-sized robot because it avoids the problems I have with the avatars being somewhat creepy. I figure, if my image and motion is going to appear in-human, I may as well be in-human. The 'tiny' movements are cartoon-like and thus fall outside of the uncanny valley, interpreted as the movements they represent without trying to replicate those movements exactly. When I last left, I was working on a system to combine the two, so my 'tiny' avatar would transform into a camera, sit on a single-prim camera-follow object, and I would truly 'be' the camera.

I realize that from the point of view of many residents, this seems to be missing the point. I'm not engrossing myself in the simulation, I'm not trying to extend myself through my avatar. I think it is the opposite. I find that the movements and appearance of 'regular' avatars to be insufficient and generally confusing in the way they convey non-verbal communication, so I want to design a way that shows what I am ACTUALLY doing with the program, how I am actually communicating.

This is more or less what you're saying, SuezanneC. That I should be a me-within-me. Ignoring my issues with avatar-creepiness, I have no qualms with appearing different in-world then I do in-life. My contention is with people who are drastically different, who are living out separate lives or trying to replace their life with the one in-world. The 'real life' is contemptuous to them. I have a problem with that.

Using this program as an 'extension' of yourself is fine. Using it as a replacement I can't stand.

Hey, he said he enjoys building! Why should he leave SL?

Vilkacis, I can't believe you've had trouble finding other people who just like to build in SL. There are bunches of builder groups in SL like these:
http://world.secondlife.com/group/c57626ef-5433-ede2-153e-93b35577ee4d
http://world.secondlife.com/group/5ef846e8-f49e-8a2c-27de-6118b2cc7f1d

Why not do a few searches and join all the groups that sound promising? Or just ask in the Building Tips subforum here about inworld groups and meetings for builders?

You might also go to a few "Show and Tell" events, where you show folks stuff you've made and get feedback. I used to drop in on Avendale's once in a while, don't know if it's still going; NCI has one; I'm sure there are many others. Again, folks in "Building Tips" are likely to know.

Different types of builders tend to hang out in different places in SL. There's a pretty significant group of Steampunk builders around New Babbage. Open Source developers frequent the AW Groupies group, the SLDev mailing list, and office hours inworld.

Finally, if you are simply interested in connecting with folks who view SL as an extension of their RL, try going to a Metanomics event or, even better, community discussion (website www.metanomics.net) and check out the profiles of other attendees.

If you're using it to 'replace' your life, if you're LIVING in it, then yes, I am pretty much saying that I consider that shameful and not something I would tell co-workers or family.

Coincidentally, I also hate Facebook, though for entirely different reasons that have more to do with privacy.

See, and that's just it. The possibilities of Second Life, I like. I like creating, I like using what I've created. I just don't see a reason to get lost in the illusion.

I suppose I'm just confused. Are you saying I should uninstall Second Life because I don't enjoy it for the reasons you do? Mind, I don't like how 'most people' (a nameless supposed majority) use the program. But I've NOT said they should quit, or use it any other way. I'm just trying to find a place where I can use it my way, where it seems worthwhile, where I won't just quit again after a week of tinkering in silence. In my opinion, 'your way' of Second Life is shameful, but I've not condemned it. Why do you condemn 'my way'?


I've tried them. Mind, it was months ago, but there were still too many issues for it to be usable. Perhaps later, yes. Or can you actually use attachments in an opensim now?

By the way, there are a lot of folks who are just like you in SL, if I understand your posts. You are interested in SL to augment your RL, not to immerse in a new life, yes? The debate between the merits of Augmentation vs. Immersion has been going on for quite a while. Here is one of the articles that define the term well: http://slcreativity.org/wiki/index.php?title=Augmentation_vs_Immersion

If this interests you, look at articles relating to this on Gwyneth Llewelyn's blog, e.g.: http://gwynethllewelyn.net/2009/01/10/post-immersionism/

Nika Talaj:
I did not know there were groups for this sort of thing. I will try them out.

As for the other links, Augmentation vs Immersion and the like, these are interesting. It doesn't surprise me to see that other people have approached it from a similar angle, but I'm glad they have, and I am reading them now.

I'll admit my hesitancy. Every time I come back, I try looking again. I find the same sorts of people, or dead groups. Mostly dead groups. And really, if I'm to use Second Life in isolation, I may as well just buy some clay. That's how I've felt and I have my doubts that it will change but I am willing to give it a try.

I don't know about attachments, but I just made a functioning joint in ReactionGrid using NinjaPhysics. Haven't been able to do that in SL for years.

LOL, you call someone's use of SL shameful and in the same breath claim you don't condemn it. Well done.

Some people are LIVING in SL because their RL's are lacking. Many have physical or emotional issues that prevent them from having the full First Life that you and I enjoy. Some of those people are my closest friends in SL. I don't use SL to replace my FL either. It is an entertaining hobby. And I am not dictating how you use it. But unlike you appear to be doing, I am also not judging or ridiculing how others use it either.

I notice you've added this to your signature rather then responding to me directly. I will do my best to clarify.

It is the difference between disliking smoking and telling everyone they should never smoke. I've not gone out of my way to condemn smoking, nor did I suggest it should be condemned. Nor am I trying to stop everyone around me from smoking. But I find smoking to be shameful, in my personal opinion. It is not something I would do and not something I seek out.

That is the difference between having the opinion that something is 'shameful' and condemning that thing. I don't seek to 'live' within this program. I would find that to be pointless. I would personally be embarrassed to be doing that. But I've not told you that you shouldn't, nor that it is anything but my own opinion.

So tell me again: Why should I delete the program because I intend to use it differently?

I can't tell you again because I didn't tell you to the first time.

What I did was attempt to offer useful, helpful advice that might help you achieve what I took to be your goals based on my interpretation of what you wrote.

I don't want to argue with you.

Sounds to me like you need answers for your own being.....not answers to explain others. I could go out into SL right now, and choose 10 people that would be as different as night and day, and not a one of them would fall neatly into one of your boxes.

You don't like many aspects of SL....and you've judged a very diverse group of people unfairly with very little information, and very little exploration into their personalities....and even if you did get to know them.....you're not going to find your answers by explaining them, or categorizing them.....only by figuring out yourself.

troll

Them maybe SL is not for you

Then don't.

If there's nothing here you enjoy, don't bother coming here. If there are things you enjoy, do them. If SL isn't for you, so be it.

If you find SL as uninteresting as you describe, why on earth are you bothering with it?

I have no shame when I tell RL people that I make good money from Second Life - not try to make it, but actaully make it at the RL wage level. Perhaps you should have heeded the suggestions about the things you make.

I do agree with you that "Second Life" is a silly name for it - it's a misnomer.

I think your problem is that you're obviously a lot better than just about everyone else in SL - but they're just not getting it.

To be honest, if I'd met you in-world I wouldn't have got it either and would have dismissed and avoided you for being really arrogant and boring ... so it's a good job you've taken the time to anounce, explain, espouse and parade your superiority here on the forums.

Hi Vilkacis,

I guess the question I'm left asking from this thread is "what is it that you want from SL?" You've said that you enjoy building, but that if you're going to build on your own you might as well buy some clay (and I feel the same way, btw) so what is it that you're hoping for from other people?

If it's an audience and appreciation, then it sounds like Phil has a point: the most common way of doing that, between immersion and augmentation, is to run a business. That way, you don't have to get involved with the "shameful" immersionism, but their money is as green as any in real life. I know that sounds cynical, but it isn't really: you're giving people what they want and accepting what they're prepared to give in exchange.

If you're looking for opportunities to tie in SL skills with real-life projects, then that's tricker, because you usually won't get those unless you're already a fairly high-profile success in SL (or _you_ sell SL to another organization in RL). One thing you can do, though, is to get involved with charity work. There's a group called The Rings which puts on fundraising performances in SL and might appreciate your help. That said I don't know what's required to actually get to perform. But it sounds like it might be your thing, regardless.

By the way, you also might enjoy Metaplace. Because of the way it's technically designed compared to SL, it has a much stronger focus on building areas. The downside is that the building isn't 3D, which might make it uninteresting for you.

Vilkacis, I have been here three years between two avators and most people I meet and get to know are just extensions of themselves here. Much like RL, they come in various personalities and situations, some you will like, others you wont. I build and run businesses, have friends I do exploring with and even do some roleplay. I don't consider roleplay trying to be someone else, but putting myself into different situations.

It can take a while to find people you gel with, much like RL. To find people similar to you, you need to do things that suite you and meet people through that. Don't be so uptight with everything, relax, SL is supposed to be enjoyment. Maybe it's you that has been looking in the wrong areas?

Read through your opening post, your attitude to everyone putting them all down before you even know most really isn't likely to win many friends. You yourself found a reason to enter SL even though apparently such a full RL, what makes you think others here only come because they have no RL?

The best way is to forget about what others are doing and work on what you want to do.

Um.....why over analyze it.....it's obviously just not for you. It's not a 'game' the way FEAR or Half Life or Metal of Honor are games. So if that's what appeals to you....you're pretty much SOL. If you're just trying to understand it in terms YOU can agree with.....good luck....in 41 years I have YET to grasp the appeal of watching duck hunting on TV....but that's just me.

I know plenty of folks who have a similar attitude as you about SL and they've never even got past making an avatar.....why bother.

It seems to me that some of the folks who spend so much time analyzing SL and scrutinizing the 'whys' and 'what fors' of others who are involved in it......are really just people of strong opinion who simply want to put down or condemn those who don't share their philosophies. Give it up sweety......if you don't want to be involved in SL because it doesn't appeal to your sense of gaming....then don't be.

On the other hand....if there is something in YOU (not your associates pressure to remain involved) that feels compelled to explore further.......then you have to open your mind to the concept that firstly....SL is not a game. It's an alternate form of connecting to others across the globe. It can be used in many different venues.....including, but not limited to, role play, networking, charitable causes, music performances, arts & science.....business networking, university courses.........

The idea is to find your niche. For me.....I agree with many of your points...I am not in SL to role play or be anything that I am not. But, I do enjoy the creative elements and I belong to some photo groups. Being a part of these collaborative groups has helped me improve my own RL skills as well as broaden my skills in photoshop and other editing programs. Ya gotta take certain things out of SL and use them to enhance your 'life'. Not the other way around. I love life......I have no 'second life'.....I simply network and do creative projects via this community. It's all one life as far as I'm concerned.

To the OP: Would you describe your real life job as "desperately trying to make money with it" as you describe merchants in SL? I find your attitude quite insulting to the creators who have dedicated their time to bring us the wonderful things we have in SL and expect a reasonable return on their time invested. Whatever you want to call SL, it is a marvelous world where we can explore our own imaginations. That in itself is the draw for many here. It seems to me that if you have no interest in doing that, SecondLife is certainly not for you. Go play world of warcraft.