Is 'THIS' the future of Second Life ?

Since I'm actually reading the forums for once, I may as well chime in.

Having your items and textures stolen suck. There is no way around that simple fact, it sucks. It makes you mad, it makes you want to strangle the person involved, or failing that the closest person you can find.

Can we get rid of thieves? Unfortunately no. Society has been trying to do it for thousands of years. It's not a SL problem specifically, it's a problem with the human race. There will ALWAYS be thieves. There's no magic technology solution to get rid of the risk in creation. As such, there's also no point in creating some draconian system to weed out a few of the less skilled thieves at the cost of a great many of the less determined creators. We as a society lose more in that case than if we'd simply lived with the crime.

That said, can the existing system use work? Hell yes. At the very least, I would like to see a much finer grained permission system. I would like to see some of the rough edges in the current creation system smoothed away. I would absolutely love a better sale and distribution system.

As content creators we take a risk. One cannot be an active participant in anything without some form of risk. Accept the risk, and move forwards knowing that occasionally one will have to fight.

Edited to add missing words from caffine deprivation.

1 card many accounts.

LL would have to start banning all accounts based on billing information, something they have yet to do... I've seen people with one account banned but not their alts using the same billing info and rl data.

It's widely assumed on these forums that debit cards cannot be distinguished from credit cards for whatever purposes they are used on Second Life (such as verification).

Credit reporting companies are able to distinguish between credit cards and debit cards. If the credit reporting companies can distinguish them and treat them differently for credit scoring purposes, I don't see why any verification system wouldn't be able to distinguish between credit cards and debit cards.

As was said above no solution is 100% effective.

However it would be awesome if it was at least a measure more difficult for thieves to steal.

Instead of a "theres nothing we can do about it" approach, there could at least be a version
of a system of "speed bumps" to dissuade people from stealing I think that would be great compared to the current situation.

For as it is now especially in regards to textures I suspect there are many people who
equate the grabbing of a texture to the levity of taking a company pen home from work.

Part of it is education. I tend to think that if a person has to go to special lengths to achieve
their casual goal of taking something that does not belong to them then they will think twice
about doing it.
Even if it is something as easy as having to use print screen to do it, then they are in that process being reminded that what they are doing is wrong. Something as small as a reminder
in the camera snapshot options to respect copyrights of others with a link to additional info
would be a giant step forward in my opinion.

Anyone going to the lengths of using a copybot or any other means of bypassing system
restraints has clearly abandoned any moral justification for thier actions.

The ideas mentioned placing limitations on anonymous unverified accounts I think are a great
idea. If a thief has to resort to Identity Theft to keep getting on to SL to sell things that is
better than them being able to do it easily. For then they are exposing themselves to a variety of legal isssues outside of SL before the even get to the door. And unless they are some kind of criminal genius that stuff tends to catch up with people.

I think that if LL even put a modicum of effort into helping content creators protect their
work it would be huge in respect to the good will they would recieve from content creators.
In addition I think that allowing unverifieds to possess all of the same powers as those
who have chosen to verify themselves tends to cheapen and disrespect the positions of
legal content creators and indeed anyone else that has verified themselves as proud residents of SL.

LL could strengthen the wording in the TOS. They could put more signs and warnings up.
Even on the login screen in addition to "all transactions are real" perhaps "All Creative Content
and Images inworld are protected by International Copyright Laws.".

SL is either a game or a tool depending on the intent of the user. Personally anytime real money is involved it is Not just a Game. But for the person who does view SL as a game
issues such as copyright laws seam to get left outside out in the real world somewhere.
In the tool analogy that would be equivolent to not taking anyone seriously just because
you were talking to them on the phone instead of face to face.

I would be against a large money committment to to become a seller because part of the beauty of starting a business is the bootstrap process. There is a great deal of satisfaction to
be had in building a successful business on a shoestring budget

These ideas would be very easy to implement and I think they would have the effect of
increasing the value of being a legitimate SL resident content creator or not.

Copyright is useless ... do scripted items do something new, you cant live forever cashing out your old palm texture.

I am sure lot of people can do better palm textures than you ... problem is that you have the monopoly

Well, SL doesn't do the work for them, by default. IE, you can't File->Save Texture on just any arbitrary texture. Outside of not enabling infringement (and please, use the right term; "thief" and "stealing" have nothing to do with copyright infringement ), anything more they do will start restricting legitimate uses. That's just the nature of DRM.



The problem is that, more often than not, those "speed bumps" impede legitimate uses and users far more than they deter infringers. Case in point:



The vast majority of snapshots taken are by legitimate users for legitimate uses. Burdening everyone with a "notice" is little more than harassment. I know that copyright infringement is wrong; I don't need to be repeatedly told the obvious any more than I need a warning flag to pop up out of my lit stove burner telling me "DON'T TOUCH! HOT! WILL BURN YOU!". It's degrading, insulting, and harassing.



You already have to go to "special lengths" to infringe copyrights, and it doesn't significantly deter anyone who is going to do it, whether intentionally or casually.



True enough, but simple use of copybot isn't immoral, unethical, or illegal, if it is used on materials/content you already own the rights to, or if you are using it for "fair use" purposes.



I think that the best that LL can do to mitigate copyright infringement is:

1) Make it very easy to determine if infringement has occurred (digital watermarks in images, ownership registrations).
2) Speedily respond to legitimate and valid DMCA notices of infringement by creators.
3) Punish and prevent those who have committed infringement from repeating it, or at least raising the bar significantly for them to make it not worthwhile in terms of cost.

Outside of that, warnings are nothing more than nuisances, and draconian DRM will make the situation much much worse.

I'm registered disabled in the UK. Due to this i receive a small amount of money from the government for the basics with a little extra left over for some small luxuries. I consider my broadband connection and Second Life those small luxuries.

The money i get has to be budgeted every 2 weeks, so i know just how much I can spend in Second Life without leaving me with no money.

I run a photography studio, which means i have to pass over textures and make photoframes to pass on to people. I also make small flexi prim flags. There is no way in hell i could afford this $500 odd "creator account" idea.

I'm not the only disabled individual in Second Life either. So what some people are suggesting is make content creation ONLY available for a select few who are willing to dump a one off payment of $500? The day that happens is the day you get to build items...and the day hundreds...if not THOUSANDS of disabled people on here up and leave.

To be honest I do see that as a big compliment, as I value your posts very much. Always much thought put into them.

As for the verification, there lies the real challenge. Apparently it is pretty hard to set up a good verification system. But as soon as you want to be able to transfer things (i.e. selling) you must be known with your real identity to LL. That is the only way to either stop people from stealing, or undertake legal actions.

Let's face it, the way it is now, could be compared with a candy shop with the door wide open, no security camera's, and no employees. Almost inviting people to steal instead of to buy.

And MortVent, of course any verification system can be fooled. There IS no system without flaws, but I would prefer a system with a flaw or two above no system at all.

As for transferring notecards, I do see the purpose of that, but it might make things more difficult. Especially since people can embed textures for example. So I would go for the safest way: no transfer if not verified.

This has got nothing to do with being disabled or not. Thousands of creators will leave because they simply cannot (or do not want) to pay almost 500 dollars, no matter if they are disabled or not. Think of countries where 500 dollars are 2 months salary, for example.

Bottom line is that asking 495 dollar for the possibility to become a content creator is a bad idea. Period.

Marcel:

Verification systems that are not done in person do not work online

The only ones that give legit information are going to be the honest users

If someone thinks it's worth stealing content and reselling it they well do it under false data, much like they will under age verification

There is only data verification, there is no user verification possible online

Basically you are right, no system is perfect. But it does make it a lot more difficult for sure. And that does help in my opinion.

Leaving the door open, invites people to steal. Every measure you take to prevent them to steal after that, will withhold a group of potential criminals, but never all of them. That is why even banks are broken into, no matter how tight the security.

Since in most cases, the stealing of content results in earning petty cash, for most people it will not be worth trying to circumvent the verification system. Those who do anyway, are breaking the law even before they steal content, so can be held responsible.

My plea is not that verification is holy, but that is is the best system we might have. But of course I am open to other suggestions. Now it would be great if LL were as well

I agree on this one $500, to tyr your hand at building stuff then find you haven't got the knck seems a bit rough. The principle is more like content creator would have to be verified perhaps, but that doesn't mean they have to front up a security deposit, just prove there is a real person taking responsibility for their actions.

You do realize finding and prosecuting online identity theft is pretty much impossible

IP addresses are easily spoofed, there is no physical link.

They can look into transaction history and maybe find the main avatar... and it's likely got fake data

I am making a build that will rezz several scenes. To use the system I need at least copy/transfer rights on anything I put in it. I want to ad a rental/security system to it so that customers can pay to use it for a certain period of time. I want to give these free to people so they can offer it to thier cyustomers to use. And when they pay the rent the owner and I automatically get a percentage of the rental fee.
Can anyone direct me to any rental/security systems that will work this way?

Of course I realize that, but I stay with my opinion that a system that has it flaws is better then no system at all. At this moment content creators are way too easy targets. Any gate preventing a percentage of the theft, is better then no gate at all.

I like your suggestion. It ticks my boxes for
(a) letting anybody pick up a prim and learn to create
(b) once they want to sell products to residents there is more governance (in your example they would need to verify their identity).
(c) It keeps SL free for those who do not wish to pay for premium.

If the person is a genuine ripper and then finds a method to steal identity and validates, to be honest no matter what systems are in place those sort of people will circumvent it. But the majority I suspect will not have the energy, ability nor inclination to do so.

I think mainly because copybotting something in a *game* isn't serious to them. Stealing RL identity is serious. Most people who do this in SL likely fall into the former camp and lack education or morality. However, I suspect most aren't likely going to want to take that next step into the RL identity theft part. Those who validate with their dog etc well erm that shows the implementation needs more thought!

To implement this for all new accounts could be the start, then Linden has open discussion with residents to agree a roadmap on how to roll out in world.

I think we need more discussion around the validation method Linden uses from ideas around PayPal validation (for those countries who use) through to credit card level. If anybody has an ideas on that side.

I am no expert but if we could see figures on the number of legitimate over 18 users out there that (a) wouldn't have a bank account that could be linked to PayPal (b) do not have Paypal in their country, or (c) do not have a bank issued debit card or credit card (no prepay versions?) It then becomes a question of those users who cannot validate versus the benefit the above could give.

Whatever is implemented (if anything) it will be gamed, but agree with the initial comment around a gateway. It makes sense to have something over nothing.

here is the problem with the gateway:

1 : false data account created
2: download and acquire the items to be bootlegged
3: set up website offering the textures, scripts, etc for use in SL
4: have a legit account set up using those now downloaded from the web content...
5: you file a dcma on them, or report them... and they simply point to google and the website

The thing is: customer service and product quality are what you have to focus on. There is going to be no magic beans to prevent copying. Everything proposed hinders and hurts legit users far more than it would protect them.

@Charlotte: You are indeed getting my point

It is not about preventing fraud entirely, it is about preventing the majority of fraud. For example none of the things MortVent mentions cannot be done now, but it sets a barrier.

I've gone back and forth through this thread and I can't see where you're proposing a system. What's the actual message everyone's commenting on?

Actually number 5 seems a little off, If they set up their own website with their other people's stuff on it becomes much easier to take action against them. From what I understand
if there is any whiff of truth that the content being offered is illegitimate the hosting company
is likely to take down the entire site until the matter gets settled, in response to a dmca.
I don't get what you mean that by pointing to google or a website somehow protects them from a dmca.
As the creator will have the preponderance of evidence that they ARE the creator.
The person that set up the site will likely abandon it rather that try to contest it.

@Argent:



@Infiniview: You are right there. As soon as you file a dmca, about every webhost will comply, as it is their ass on the line if they host illegal content. Probably it is way easier to fight illegal content on a website then in SL.
Furthermore, when you own a domain, either the provider has your RL data, or they even are riht in the DNS system. Of course there are free systems, but they will be the fist to tear you down

I certainly don't know the solution and look to the other people here who have more knowledge and understanding of law and the internet.

The thing that upsets me is the fact that the OP is a legendary contributor to SL. Her gorgeous plants are EVERYWHERE in SL. And even she cannot get the attention of LL to fix this ASAP? If she is this frustrated, what about the rest of us who are just starting up or plain struggling? Talk about a recipe for SL disaster. Honestly, why try to be a content creator if someone is going to come along and steal it?

Many of you also mentioned copybots are still a big problem in SL. Why wasn't that fixed years ago when it first started?

Hey Limonella Sorbet,

Still waiting for you to shine some light on this statement - it was pretty broad and pretty bold and completely unsubstantiated and since you have not replied, i'll call it an outright lie.




Still waiting....

* Popular grid stores with stolen content that are "known" - yet still operating in SL... *coughbullshitcough*

Please point the way. I mean, if it is such a popular store how come no one else is reporting it? How does a store get popular while selling copy bot stolen items??

Care to explain yet?

That's not so far from how it was when I joined up, except for the "cannot transfer any item" bit. You only had a week before you had to upgrade to Basic or Premium for US$10 either way.

If I had to wait two weeks before I could transfer stuff I'd made, that would have been annoying, I might not have stayed. But I upgraded to Basic within a couple of days.

I'm not sure that a two week waiting period would be much of a barrier. There's been locations in SL that started banning users younger than X days, to ban griefer alts, and griefers just set up pools of alts ahead of time.

Idiotic.

Ever notice how the Open Source fans suddenly use Capitalism as a defense when someone proposes a solution? Some people already have a agenda everything should be free and with full permissions, will be the first to argue with any solution.

Truth is, though LL is incapable of ever solving this problem because in their house of cards, change anything basic to the system and the entire thing falls apart and comes crashing down.

It is warped that LL puts content creators into this double bind and does nothing about it. Sl's biggest selling point is content creation. What a pity.

And as far as identifying who people are---well LL can't even manage that one.

It's disgusting.

The old parable about the tiny parasite in the Lion kills the Lion.