Calling for an end to banning without warning or reason

PLEASE NOTE: My complaint here is NOT over the bannings that occured, but the way they occured and how the people found out. I am very aware that this could be chalked up to some prick sending in bogus ARs. My issue is with the manner Linden Labs went about informing, or lacking in doing so, the people that were banned. This post has been rewritten to show exactly what I'm upset about.

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Recently there have been a string of bannings that have occurred to members of a group that I co-own. While the bannings could be anything from them violating the TOS to a bogus AR by someone seeking to attack them, a huge issue exists with these bannings. I am not going to argue the bannings because I don't know why they occured in the first place. Neither do they. This is where the problem lies.

Linden Labs has, in the last three weeks, disabled 5 members accounts from the organization I co-own and run. We're a performing group known as Second Life Championship Wrestling, and many of these members are very active performers. They tend to keep themselves out of trouble, and spend most of their time in SL at the arena, practicing or performing. Recently, one of my best friends and a performer at the arena had contacted me. His account was disabled, and he had received no information as to why. No email was sent to him stating the reasons. The only thing he had to go off of was when he logged in, he was told his account was "disabled".

There are, in my opinion, many things missing from this. Where is an explanation as to why? Where could he appeal it? Is his account temporarily disabled, or permanently? What about any money/L$ that he had on the account? What proof was there to back up the reason he was disabled? Where was an email informing him that his account was disabled? There was nothing. Literally...nothing.

I'm not going to argue about the reasons behind the 5 separate disabled accounts because still to this day we have no idea why it has happened. The one who recently was banned has called Linden Labs but we've seen no action so far with anything being done, nor have we heard from him to see if anything did get fixed.

How is Linden Labs going to pull the trigger on an account, and then walk away and say "no comment"? Even if the person deserves the banning, why is there no explanation given as to why? What about those that are falsely banned? Where can they go to argue it? If people have intellectual property or money in Second Life, how can they access it to retrieve it? If they own land, can they be allowed an opportunity to sell it before SL keeps taking their money, even though they can't get on?

We need to call for an end to this. A banning with no reason given is like a slap in the face, especially to those that keep their nose clean. Deserved or not, everyone that signs up for an account is worthy of atleast a simple explanation as to why, and how to appeal if they so desire. As it stands, the ONLY info on appealing is under a topic that is so oddly named it would be random luck for them to find it. This is ridiculous. It needs to stop.

I suspect their accounts were suspended pending investigation rather than banned so if they have done nothing wrong then your friends should ultimately be able to recover their in world assets once the account is restored.

If their account is not restored after investigation then they were obviously banned for a good reason.

That aside I completely agree with you. LL have consistantly taken action against it's customer base without prior warning, from account banning to content removal, land reposession, to currency reposession due to the fraudulant actions of others completely outside of the victims control.

For a company to take any of the above actions without warning a customer is unnaceptable. It's a shame there is no regulating body watching over the actions of companies like LL labs and all virtual and MMO worlds.

The only way you are going to get your point heard and actioned is through petition. We've seen it done before and it works (at least once to my knowledge). If enough people shout loud enough then LL have no option but to listen.

Seems they're being a bit disingenuous, though: they've just lost it, by their own hands. Either a thing has value or it doesn't; if it isn't of sufficient value to justify the risk, that's as much a comment on the value as it is of the risk.

Nonetheless, there's no reason there should be so much risk--if indeed there is. Accounts don't just get suspended and canceled at random. (That might be an interesting addition to the platform, actually, but that's a quite different topic. ) Mistakes happen, sure, but five (or now six?) associated accounts in three weeks? Something else is going on here: that would be completely unsustainable if applied to the general resident population, and doesn't sound likely to be coincidental.

Do you at this point know what triggered all this? If the accounts are just suspended, I'd be guessing that something the group is doing is inadvertently triggering the Risk API. (Or... could these folks all have fallen victim to the same mistake of buying stolen L$s, perhaps telling each other about that source without realizing they were setting each other up for a time bomb?)

If that's not the problem, and the nature of the problem remains unknown, I'd have to wonder if the group has a competitor. (Example scenario: One of the unbanned members of the group is actually a plant of the competitor. Some testing is going on somewhere with push enabled but not damage, and the "wrestling" somehow triggers a bunch of pushes on the competitor's plant, who files easily successful ARs against the pushing avatar accounts.)

(Oh, and yeah, I agree that account suspensions, etc., should be accompanied by email describing the nature and reason for the discipline, except in cases of very sensitive investigations.)

I'm curious, you don't mention why they were banned. All the warnings are given in the ToS, perhaps it should be read when it's presented. New accounts cannot log on until the ToS is presented to them and they agree to abide by it.

http://www.secondscripter.com

I am a member of SLCW and I know the individuals Eric speaks of, NONE of them were griefers/spammers or underage. Hell, like me they spent 90% of their time at the Arena practicing or setting up angles for the organization (angle meaning storyline).

I am 40 years old, I own my own business with 10 employees where I live. If I pulled something like this I would be bankrupt or hauled into court pronto. You cannot just ban someone without an explanation or communication at all. That would be like me firing someone for no reason and refusing to talk to the guy to tell them why.

It is unacceptable.

Yes, but it begs the question of why the heck it's happening just to this group. It most certainly is not happening wholesale across the grid. There is a cause--as I tried to mention, not necessarily a fault of those banned: they could have all fallen into the same trap. But *something* is making it happen.

We all agree, I think, that under all but the most unusual circumstances, a disciplined account should get timely information about why they've been disciplined, and that might make a good MISC jira. But that's apparently a policy change so it's not going to address the groups' immediate problems.

So, I'm uncertain at this point: does the group actually want to reduce the incidence of the members getting banned, or does the group just want LL to be more forthcoming as they continue banning the group's members?

It's not happening to just this group. Do a search for "banned" or "banning" or "disabled". Some threads disappeared but there are a few that still exist with others complaining of the same exact thing. So no, it's not just us. I'm just seeing it alot with where I am at most of the time.

EDIT: Here's just one thread with a person who had the same exact thing happen.

/327/3e/272611/1.html

EDIT 2: My concern here isn't just our guys or the people that have been banned...it's the fact that they've been disabled/banned/suspended/whatever with NO warning, no reasons given, no explanation as to why, no explanation as to how long their account will be disabled, nothing. It's just off. If there was a reason, like some person with a stick in their ass sending in false ARs, the LEAST they could do is send an email to the account saying "Hey, this is the claim against you, we've found this and this to go along with this claim, you're punishment is ______, if you wish to contest it, contact us at.." They're removed from People search so this isn't just a simple mistake...even Linden Labs stated in a recent update that if you want to find out why or contest it (how the hell do you contest it if you don't even know WHY it happened in the first place) you have to submit at ticket and sit on your hands until they may decide to contact you. One of the guys that got disabled called but I'm not sure the outcome of that yet.

Also, the two business owners that left had alot of value in their company but didn't want to see something happen where they'd be locked out and lose all that money. Honestly...sadly...I can't blame them. And, after scouring, two other threads of people mentioning the same issue (account banned/disabled, no info given, no warning) have magically disappeared. Go figure.

People on here know that I generally support LL and am usually upbeat about SL and not prone to moaning.

But there needs to be an urgent investigation into whether or not erronious bannings are happening.

Some of these poor souls are being cut off from their community, seemingly through no fault of their own.

The big reason alot of people are miffed isn't just the bannings, its that no information as to why is given. Nothing at all.

The best way to picture what's happening is to just imagine sitting down to log in to Second Life, you've gotten no email at all from them, no information that would make you think there would be any reason you would be banned. Then you try logging in, and it says your account is disabled and nothing more. That's the end of it. No reasons, no explanation, nothing. Just "You're account is disabled." They give no information as to what you need to do to find out why, nor how to contest it. THAT is what I'm asking to have stopped...this disabling or banning with no information given at all.

Agreed - that's all part of it. A system that has been devised to deal with out-and-out griefers or rule-breakers who know the score is not appropriate for people who might have infringed the TOS accidentally or not at all.

YES, this happens (and if you read the posts in the cited thread, there are sometimes very good reasons in the customers' interests for accounts to be suspended that have absolutely nothing to do with ToS violations nor buying bad L$s). And YES it would be much better if LL were more forthcoming when they take such actions, under almost all circumstances.

But happening occasionally somewhere on the grid is one thing; "just seeing it alot with where I am at most of the time" is something else. When the coins keep coming up tails on every toss, eventually one has to wonder about those coins.*

So, this is Resident Answers. If the question is how to change Linden policy: file a MISC jira, or maybe go to a G-Team Office Hour and ask nicely why explanations aren't routinely sent and whether there might be a way to change that.

Evidently the question is not why does this keep happening to this one group and what can be done to avoid it. I'm trying very hard not to speculate on why that latter question isn't so interesting.

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*Tom Stoppard notwithstanding.

It's not because of the name of your group is it? "Second life championship Wrestling......"


Trademark problem?

We have people that come in all the time that try to join and some are just not to the level that we look for. Others end up coming in and being very self serving and egotistical, which hurts our productions at times. We've had to remove some people that ended up with a rather large chip on their shoulder and I wouldn't be surprised one bit if they are taking "revenge", as some people are known to do. It's the reason that noone outside our group can build or run scripts on our land. We were griefed before by a person that got upset over us removing him after he sexually harassed some of the women, so someone doing fake ARs as a last ditch at retribution wouldn't surprise me. I've seen it happen a few times before...people get banned for being underage when they're far past the age of 18, but someone felt scorned and attacked them with a bad AR.



Not sure, but I doubt they'd disable the wrestlers and not go after myself or the other owners that actually run it. That would definitely be a case of misdirected action if it was true.

I see these situations being brought to light in forum posts here and there, and I've always just kinda shrugged it off as just another half-story looking for a place to vent.

I'm now beginning to believe that there actually is a real problem here, as too many people are experiencing this and sharing similar stories. It occurs to me that as Qie mentions, there may well be and probably IS cause, however the silent "hit and run" behavior of Linden Lab in these cases is disturbing, and if true, inexcusable.

Even if all of these people did something so dastardly as to deserve a suspension or account cancellation, I strongly believe that Linden Lab have the obligation to communicate to them the nature of the offense, the action being taken on Linden Lab's part, and the options available to defend and redress.

It gives cause to wonder who at the Lab actually has the authority to discipline Residents this severely, and if they are being properly trained and properly supervised, or are just left on their own, free to make extremely poor judgement calls.

I would suggest that those who have been directly affected by this issue get together, and collectively write and send a letter directly to the head of the governance team. Whether or not these folks deserved the particular action taken, they certainly deserve an explanation, and shouldn't have to go through hoops of fire to find it. (I have no idea who this person is since Chadrick left)

I agree with Eric and Zap. Heck, even a scurrilous piece of griefer scum deserves an explanation. After all, if you don't know why you're being punished, how can you change your behavior to keep it from happening again?

ANY suspension or disabling of an account should include a statement of why it happened, and contact information on how one could go about requesting a review of the decision.

Guildenstern did wonder
Or maybe that was Rosencrantz...

Eric: sounds to me that your organization is a place of great drama. Perhaps your policies and managerial style inevitably means that 'enemies' are made, causing uncalled for AR's.

However, is LL so fascist that drastic measures are taken based on nothing more than someone's AR? Especially since LL doesn't get involved in personal or even business disputes. Accusations must surely be based on something significant that can be proven before an outright ban occurs?

Or am I being naive?
Seems to me that axing someone without explanation or provable cause would at the very least be fraudulent if it involves a paid-up account or someone with financial stakes in SL.
In RL this would equate to returning home to your apartment to find the locks changed and all your belongings still inside. Judge Judy, here we come.

While I doubt that there isn't some logical reason for these bans, I find the lack of communication on LL's part outrageous.

B.

The old -

"If you did nothing wrong - you have nothing to fear from the law" adage.

Course at least in real life you can hire a lawyer if you did nothing wrong.

Yeah, we have drama...it's not great, but you get some people that have issues. With us being a very active community and having over 40 active members, with new people wanting to join daily, and filling the sim with each show we do, drama is bound to happen. Still, the idea that it only takes one seems to ring true. Still, my complaint wasn't over the bannings themselves or why they happened.



Yeah, I agree, if someone is banned for a good reason, so be it. I know for a fact that two of the guys are over 18 and are nowhere near the type to be banned for any reason. Yet they're disabled and don't know why. In fact, I'd LOVE if Linden Labs allowed a way for you to search a list of accounts for reasons they were banned so that way if someone comes on as an alt and was banned for sexual harassment, you can stop it before it starts again (or atleast remove the problem from there).

The analogy with coming home to find your locks changed, everything inside, and no explanation as to why pretty much hits the nail on the head. Even worse is that they can still take money from your account if you own land or pay for advertising, even if you're disabled. With real world money allowed into and out of the game, LL could hit some huge lawsuits if they ban the wrong people without warning or reasons given, and provide no way to appeal.

EDIT: I'm going to rewrite my first post...maybe this will better show what I'm getting at.

Personally I think its far too easy to get banned in Second Life.

While those who commit fraud, launch grid attacks or destructively harass/cyberstalk people need to go ...

Theres a lot of other offenses for which banning is excessive.

Yes, there is a real problem here.

I've been chatting with some friends that have no association with the SLCW and they've stated a few people they roleplay with in their sim had the same exact thing happen. Banning with no information given as to why. They simply tried logging on, were told their account was disabled, and thats it. So now, more than ever, am I sure this isn't just something isolated.

You would think the least LL could do is tell you why you were suspended or banned.

Even a tyrant usually tells their peasants why they are being thrown in the dungeon.

Has anyone considered LL intentionally doesn't say why they are banning so as to not be sued for banning (withholding of paid services) for an untrue reason? If they don't say why, you can't prove it isn't true. They can then, later, say it was a _temporary hold_ for your "own benefit" or "for security reasons".

Wow thats a paranoid answer.

It could be correct - just .. LOL .. I hope not.

If this is the case then I finally have an answer to what the Bragg case cost the residents of Second Life.

Would you rather think that LL just doesn't care about their customers enough to give them the reason for the ban?