OK...Your turn..."Honest" Solutions for Business Owners

Bots are false advertising.

I agree with that statement if you're selling traffic, for example a mall owner. traffic is very definitely a selling point for malls (which I know you don't like ).

However for a mainstore I'm not so sure as I see traffic as a flawed stat anyway, how long someone stays on a parcel doesn't interest me for sales.

For some its not regarded as a game when it's about making 1000's of USD per month

Ha ha.

I'm not the one who called it a game, that was the comment I was responding to.

Yes, many spammers make a lot of money too. That doesn't mean that spamming should be acceptable.

Folks I don't think I've ever condemned anyone for using bots, campers or other marketing strategies that aren't really destructive (as ad farms were for instance). It's just my preference to shop in the more Mom and Pop little known places for a couple of reasons.

1. You can get very different stuff that way (and yes, now that my avatar's origin has been featured in Showcase, it may be time to become a human again, or perhaps a dinosaur would be more appropriate).

2. It's less creepy. Something just creeps me out about a bunch of avatars mopping the ever pristine floors.

You may lose my business, but I'm just one fish in the sea. You want to gain my business? Somebody make some bots or camper animations that look like they're -- shoping! That wouldn't creep me out nearly as much, and I could almost believe someone was in busy mode and ignoring me in the unlikely event I ask them something.

Oh - I have taken to shopping in malls again just for the randomness of it. It is slow rezzing the textures, but can be fun when I'm not looking for anything in particular. But not if there are people mopping the floor.

I don't see the distinction.

Bots falsely inflating traffic for a store is pretty much the same for falsely inflating traffic for a mall is pretty much the same for falsely inflating traffic for a club.... ... .. .

Is is pretty much the common theme here. Falsely inflating traffic. Since it appears as a form of advertising metric, affecting the visibility of a particular business versus other businesses, it is "false advertising".

I don't think those particular money makers worry too much about the moralities of whether logging in an army of bots is right or wrong......I think they'd be too busy counting their Linden dollars!

Yes, I see your point. Bots are equivalent to physical assault in a post apocalyptic society. Sorry Argent, but I really didn't expect *you* to be sensationalizing your argument.



A less sensational comparison, but still not the same thing at all. Hardly comparable.




I hope you aren't suggesting I called it merely "a game"?

The mall selling their location is selling traffic as a selling point for others to rent there, the mainstore isn't, that's the distinction.

Boy, don't I wish it worked that way. :-/ "Hoard tribute, or it's the gullet for you!"



Well, yes, but the point is that a large number of people have similar standards when it comes to certain "abuses", and when LL is pressed over it, they eventually will take action, especially when it negatively impacts service and opportunities for other residents.

Paid picks doesn't seem to me to be any more odious than giving mall patrons freebies to spread the word. It doesn't hurt anyone, especially since there is no service impact, and the opportunity is present to all. Not sure how it could be considered "cheating".

Yeah, but both are selling something and using false advertising as a vehicle for doing it. Still the same thing, as far as I can tell.

I think that this is absolutely accurate.
The vast majority of people will use search and visit the highest ranking places.
That's why people use 'whatever' to get the highest ranking they can be bothered to achieve.

As with buying from email spammers, enough people will always buy to make it worth the spammers while to spam.

In SL, people in the top search rankings will sell if their stuff is anyway acceptable. It doesn't have to be better than way more excellent stuff that might linger unnoticed in the lower rankings.

LL are due to blog on the topic of traffic bots "real soon now". Whether or not anything effective comes out of that remains to be seen.

If nothing much happens then the obvious answer is to destroy the ranking effect of bots - from the inside.
I ran a single bot just to do some research on how traffic works. I used Metabolt as the client and there certainly was no great load imposed on my end for that. I found that I needed better tools to poke at the black box, so I'm motivated to get to reading the code so that I can make a specialised bot.
I'd be more than happy to give away free cookbook information and kits that would make it as easy as possible for everyone to run the minimum 20 or so bots that get them up in the top rankings.
People need to know how to sign up that many accounts. They need to know any limitations on accounts per email account etc. They need as thin a client as possible.
Bots in a box needs to be as common and easy as business in a box.

If most people run bots, then the playing field gets levelled - and LL will have to deal with the nonsense of the sheer numbers being common knowledge.

If most people ran bots it would solve the problem, because LL would have to act as the grid wouldn't be able to handle the load. I agree with you on this issue more than you realise Sling, but I totally understand why people do it.

Oh, I so totally understand WHY people do it.

The same as I understand why people shoplift, grossly lie on their taxes, snatch purses, drain the hose of the gas pump after the pump shuts off, cheat on their spouse, run Ponzi schemes, throw litter (yes, cigarette butts are litter, too) out the car window, et cetera ad nauseum.

It is because "they can", and why not?

1) "Everyone else does it!"
2) "It's OK unless I get caught!"
3) "It's not against the law (yet)!"
4) Add any one of a million other selfish, greedy, anarchic excuses here.

It's a generally "sick" social mentality; a social "pathology", if you will.

my take on this is that malls are generally seen now as having freebie and biz in a box stuff. I also use the fashion feeds, blogs, etc to compare and look for clothes and accessories. I use slex to search for textures and a few other things here and there. But for gadgets, scripts and other cool things, i will use all search and i will shop at those on the first page usually after drilling down to look at the items for sale in each location. this works very well...i had to stop at one store each for two diff things i was looking for and hit exactly what i wanted on the first stop for each.

I agree that places like sims with interesting builds and activities tend to do better than "malls." But, it also takes each merchant in a mall 0r area to do their own marketing to benefit the entire group of merchants. if all do their due diligence, then people will come for their items and wander to see the rest. i personally dont think its up to the mall owner to be responsible for all the marketing and traffic.

another aspect of this is the renters...its one thing to sell items in a shop and quite another to get renters for a mall. at one time i had may stores going all over in large and small locations, malls, freestanding shops etc. the ones that did the best were NOT the ones in the high priced malls with the brand names. i did much better in places where interesting goods were displayed in neighboring shops inviting folks to look around. however, it always seems that doing my own promotion is really the key and very little ever comes of foot traffic.

If M.Linden's aim is to attract RL businesses onto the grid.....i'll predict that Bots are on their way out too.....it's all part of the process of cleaning up the grid!

I've thought about this a lot... this is one of the best forum threads of 2009, I think, and nobody's figured that out yet.

Let's consider this 'upside down' for a second... why *don't* most of us run bots, spam or whatnot?

I'm going to be very honest. If I could clear, say, 10,000 USD/month permanently for running some bots to sell some... I dunno, low prim furniture, or land parcels... I'd do it. No question. There would be bots out there right now.

But I don't.

Why?

This is a bit subtle, but also very honest. There's a couple of factors: one is reputation and the other is long term financial stability.

Let's consider reputation first.

*Most* of you know me as just Desmond, but there's a handful out there with my real id and so forth. I'm not paranoid about it; I'm kinda boring actually. But just sensible enough that I don't have 30 griefers sending me pizza or anonymously signing me up for porno mags or whatever.

But if I were to become the Spam King, you betcha, it would eventually link *hard* to my RL identity. Sooner or later, no matter how anonymous you think you are... you aren't. It could be a slip in a blog, a receipt at SLCC, it could be a DMCA or a loose~lipped Linden or a subpoena.

There is a permanent, lifetime, real cost to being spammy. And this is why I don't loan desperate homeowners money with a lien against their house, why I don't sell used cars and why I don't chase ambulances offering legal services either.

Second, let's look at stability.

Say you make 10,000 USD a month for three months, in a wild, spammy grab for cash and glory before our service provider slams the door shut or 50 others dive in. Maybe you get away with such methods for six months!

Well, guess what folks, you better be rolling crazy rich for a looooooong time, because otherwise a non~spam biz is still gonna beat ya over the long haul. There's an old expression: "crime pays, but it doesn't pay enough." If it's *easy enough* to get into, you'll have competition. If it's *hard* to get into, you may as well roll legit! Think about it.

* * * * *

So that's why I don't resort to such methods, even though I easily could. Not every situation is the same, though.

Let's consider the wind chimes. Is the value of selling a dozen wind chimes a day worth the stigma of selling in a successful, botted area? Is it still worth having done it a year after the method has been cut off by our service provider?

To my mind it's small time stuff, not likely to hurt anyone's rep that much, or benefit anyone that much. And some bots are a downright service, such as Elanthius' land bots ~ *some* money on a fast exit sure beats abandoning mainland.

Phil's business doesn't phase me much, either ~ but here's the rub: I remember the days of $L for rating someone. It was possible to make $L 3 for rating someone rather positively! So there were rating parties. Now *all* of that is gone. Once there was a time when microparcel extortion didn't exist... for years! And then, it did.

And now it's down to britneyspearsx1000~style search engine optimisation. Guess what will happen! Yep, it will explode one day, ruining exactly those businesses that employed it. All that will be left is the stigma.

Not exactly a thing I want to pour time and effort into, and because of some very sensible business reasons, I don't.

/me emphatically agrees with Desmond.

Very well said, guv'nah!

Don't quite agree Desmond...SL is a high turnaround game....100's leave SL for good & 100's newly arrive each day. The great majority of SL's populatation do not read forums & blogs...are totally oblivious to what is going on, or people's reputations. If LL allowed Bots for the unforesseable future, someone like Phil can continue enjoying good sales unabated. (How long has Phil been running Bots?) I don't think continued use of Bots would impacts sales of everyday items at all! I know of companies that have been gaming traffic for several years now.....they wouldn't still be doing it, if it wern't profitable or sustainable....your points are more valid to Land sales/rentals however.

But it's not a 3 month money grab. It's a proven sustainable methodology for getting more visitors to your store, where you sell your goods. If it were a 3 month money grab, it would have been over a year ago. Or more, I'm still new.

And most of the businesses who use bots - if/when bots are gone, they'll do whatever is the new best way to get traffic to their store.

It's a tool, not an evil plot.

there is no 'honest' way for an upstart imo.
the bottom line is that traffic count = sales, like it or not.

Des, I really appreciate your well thought out post.

But once again, this is becoming an anti-bot thread, which I didn't want. I wanted it to stand on it's own legs, as a thread of viable solutions to the marketing difficulties in SL. I know that I'm not the only mall owner struggling.

Some suggestions of "why have a mall?" are a moot point. I have one. I make a little money from it...I'd like to earn more. Without being a "content creator", I don't ever hope to cover my sim payment with it, but a larger portion of it would be nice.

Frankly, this isn't even *just* about malls. I imagine that landowners have the same issues - how to market their property to get the most attention.

Or dress designers, in a market completely glutted.

malls? well as a shopper i dont mind a mall if it is populated by actual creators. if i owned a mall i would ban affiliate vendors and biab resellers and cater some niche. the one-stop mall is great in rl, but i think it doesnt work as well in sl.

not real advise i suppose. its pretty basic stuff and anyone thats been in the business for any time likely already knows this, but i do see alot of craptacular biab malls out there.

I have to agree with most of the above.

- Utilizing both your own groups and community groups to promote your biz, keep people informed and announce new products.
- As much as people may not feel classifieds work, I find the opposite. If I let my classifieds drop I see a decrease in traffic and sales.
- Xstreet is probably one of the biggest forms of advertisement I use. I keep homepage ads going on at least 6 items all the time and it definitely pays for itself. I know that because of the number of people who tell me they found our store on Xstreet.
- I think there needs to be a careful balance on "gifts". It's a great way to get people into the store who maybe haven't been there before or perhaps could use a reminder. It's a great way to reward group members. I do think too much of a good thing can be just that...too much. The goal for me is for people to see my products, fall in love with them and then hopefully purchase--not *just* get the gifts time and time again.
- My last point is CUSTOMER SERVICE. CS goes a lonnnnng ways. A helpful hand to a customer will provide payback time and time again. That customer will return and will tell their friends about both products and the people who made them and helped their customers. I want people to enjoy their experience at Ambiance and want to come back. It's a crucial part of our business for sure.

~ Desi

Out of curiousity, why affiliate vendors? The designer creates and uses affiliates as their distribution tool. If they don't mind....why should you?