Bank Ban Needs To Be Amended To Include All Financial Operations.

Its supposedly a financial Role playing game .. That you pay to play.

Kalel resurrected it, however its always good to chat about these things don't you think and it is Friday

OK i understand that about the W$ however my question is that you deposit L$ and get W$ to play with and yet on the banner on the front page it says you can exchange them for US Dollars and yes i restarted my account to have a look and on the help page is the following:

"What is the World Internet Currency?

The WSE operates using fictional currency called the World Internet Currency (WIC, W$) provided by www.WicExchange.com . New users receive a bonus W$100.00 assigned to their WSE account in order to experiment and start trading. When using the WIC you are issued with a limited license by WIC Exchange that you can buy and sell for US Dollars subject to the terms of WIC Exchange. The value of the WIC license is determined by an exchange rate set by WIC Exchange, the rate is then applied to the total amount of WIC assigned to that license at the time of the transaction. Trading on the WSE allows users to increase the amount of WIC assigned to their license and the more WICS users have, the higher the value of the license! The WIC Exchange rate to buy is currently USD$1/WIC$265 and to sell is WIC$270/USD$1. WIC Exchange accepts VISA, MasterCard, Bank account and Paypal. To Deposit or Withdraw WICS on WSE go to the menu and select "ATM" on the WSE."

So you use L$ buy W$ then exchange them for RL USD or am i missing the point here as well? It just seems on face value and no i am still looking that they have just moved it in a round about way out of SL for trading the game money.

I am not actually sure if you can deposit $l but you can definetly swap $WIC for US, well supposably, there has been a halt on withdrawals until 22nd of september so we will find out in two days.

What is most interesting is that they are paying interest, so although they have a presesnce in SL LL can't shut them down because they don't use the $L and I would say they would have received many AR's by now, after all they have been shut for close to 9 months so no one can get their money.

They have/had an atm that u paid in L$ which were swapped for W$ that was what raised my interest but as you say lets wait and see what LL does with this one as it will be a gauge as to the future of this sort of thing in SL and what i gather is everyone lost there money well the L$ anyway but i as always stand to be corrected

What's that old saying..... Fool me once and shame on you.... Fool me twice and shame on me.

I had very lot of very smart friends who in real life are Engineers, College Educated who lost money in whole Ginko/WSE crud.
They weren't fools they were influenced by a lot of so called business experts encouraging people to use Ginko their was lot of hype and peir pressure to do so to newer residents during that time period saying it was safe,etc.
Yet I someone who never really finished school, can't hold down a good pay job or even sell more then few items in world thought something about it didn't seem right.
In same way I always thought a lot of real life retirement/investment/stock market advice and funds didn't seem quite right.
I got friends now in both realities who have lost tons of hours of wages, retirement and savings funds totally gone who very smart, educated, hard working individuals
Truthfully it just sad.
I don't think they are fools, I think they just wanted to believe what the experts said that they were investing in their futures and all those other promises those so called finical experts say.
I think of it as strange irony.

I didn't read every reply but in my skimming I notice that no one mentions that what the first post is talking about is already banned.
http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/01/08/new-policy-regarding-in-world-banks/
As of January 22, 2008, it will be prohibited to offer interest or any direct return on an investment (whether in L$ or other currency) ....

And the subject is : Bank Ban needs to be Amended to Include All Financial Operations.

That's the point - the ban doesn't go far enough.

Its not unlike blaming the internet service providers because there are scam artists ripping people off on the internet.

I know many people who lost real money in the WSE crap...some around 20K USD. Given the fact that Ansche Chung, who has made the most money from SL of anyone ive heard about, is and was a serious investor in many WSE companies, I think calling anyone who had any involvement in WSE or banks stupid is a bit of a stretch. Instead of putting the fault on folks who read the rules and followed them for months and then get ripped off, i think the fault lies with those who ran what appeared to be a reputable SL biz for many months and then ran away with the loot.

NO!

LL is NOT a internet service provider no matter how they pretend. Since when do the Internet Service Providers print "money" out of thin air and sell it? And charge for every transaction you make with others?

It totally illegal and someday will have to face it. It is essentially counterfeiting and a huge scam.

Rebecca, if it is illegal surely LL would have been closed down right now completely. With respect they have already approached the FBI and got their views and their (LL's) lawyers would be a lot better informed by you.

They are a service provider and nothing more.

Yes and no... Personally I have never and would never invest my Lindens in any kind of unregulated bank/stock market. However the managers/owners of the banks and stock markets are certainly liable and should they get caught RL would certainly be expected to answer for their actions in a court of law.

fool me months later and shame on the Zombies.

When did they start doing this?

My account must be broke because when I buy things that doesn't happen.

Not that a per transaction fee would be illegal.

Counterfeiting? Are you serious? Which nation is the Linden the currency of? They are no more counterfeiting than Blizzard is.

"Counterfeit is an imitation that is made usually with the intent to deceptively represent its content or origins. The word counterfeit most frequently describes forged currency or documents,.........." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterfeit


There is no imitation or deception on the part of Linden Lab. Period.

wonder if they take Lindens?

Hello all,

Wow! My old thread! Neat.

Actually, LL is not like an ISP. AOL and your local cable company are ISPs, which provide you access to the internet. LL is more like a host. Godaddy.com is a host. A host provides servers on which you may upload content (web sites, etc) which others who have access to the internet via an ISP may access via a web browser. In the case of LL, they provide servers on which people upload content which is then accessible to others via LL’s client software (their browser).

Hosts are responsible for what are on their servers and if they find out you have an illegal service running on one of their servers, they will shut it down, as they could be held liable if they knowingly allowed the illegal activity to continue.

And a subject that it was good to see necro posted especially as it seems the WSE has re started allbeit slightly differently.

IMO its important that this sort of issue comes to the forums to create an awarness not so much for those of us that remember it last round but for the new folks coming into the game that have been sucked in by LL slick marketing and the fact this WSE looks good on face value

for some reason i thought this thread had to do with wall street and the banks scams going on lol

Kool-Aid

Clearly the FBI, SEC, FTC etc. is up to their neck figuring out vastly larger RL issues.

It all comes from the same scammer, exploitive unethical mentality that has been running rampant.

It's coming up with a great scam idea and siphoning money away as fast as possible, before anyone catches on. It's all about hiding behind the idea that ETHICS interferes with a "free market."

They wear the "Golden Parachute" for when the scam catches up to them.

To claim LL is absolved from legal responsibility for the scams in SL, is the ultimate Kool-Aid they want you to drink.

They sell you the money and charge you for using it. They provide the Linden Exchange and then claim they are absolved from legal responsibility in a virtual space they OWN 100%. Even your own ownsership of a Linden is Kool-Aid.

They own your Lindens.

Believe it or not, it is illegal to be unethical in business in the United States. It is against the intent and letter of the law to scam people. A "TOS" like a disclaimer means nothing when an activity is illegal.

That people get away with scams, because no one cracks down, does not mean that it is then okay to do all that. That just means, the policing fails due to an overwhelming amount of scams going on in the world. That is however, not an excuse----it is an exploit to those who take advantage of inefficient policing. It harms others in an economy which is intertwined with the countries economy.


That crackdowns on Online scamming is obfuscated, due to the virtual environment and legal confusion, does not mean that it is then okay to ignore the basic intent of the laws regarding the creating of an exchange of made up tokens for real life money.

Ultimately LL can print Lindens and sell them on the "exchange" and use the Golden Parachute if things get tight and they are being closed in on. Since they own the medium of exchange and own the mechanism of the exchange and own the means of production. They will be ownzzzd.

A Linden is NOT a counterfeit dollar but is in fact an unbacked currency that is equal to X amount of the US dollar. The Linden itself is an Exploit of the intent of the laws.

To say that the US dollar is technically a unbacked, fiat currency and that whole tired argument----has nothing to do with it, nor does it excuse LL, anymore then inefficient policing or using exploits inside SL make it "legal."

We also have security, gambling and fraud laws, enacted with the intent to protect the society from turning it's economy into a joke. That there are many who exploit these laws does not excuse LL or various behaviors in SL.

Instead of looking at the letter of the law like counting angels on the head of a pin, look at basic common law which people seem to bypass.

Fraud:

"All multifarious means which human ingenuity can devise, and which are resorted to by one individual to get an advantage over another by false suggestions or suppression of the truth. It includes all surprises, tricks, cunning or dissembling, and any unfair way which another is cheated."

LL has allowed it's product to be used as as a casino in many ways, not just outright virtual casinos.

Go to the main page of SL website and click on "What is Second Life?"

From the very first sentence, they put it on the residents as the "creator"--sorry they (LL) are the creator.

They use the phrases, "retain intellectual property" and "Your World, Your Imagination," which are in fact cancelled by the TOS.

"..............the Linden™ dollar, which can be converted to US dollars at several thriving online Linden dollar exchanges."

"Under Linden Lab's Terms of Service Residents retain intellectual property rights in the original content they create in the Second Life world, including avatar characters, clothing, scripts, textures, objects and designs. The result is a vibrant marketplace of Second Life content. If you create it, you can sell it, trade it, and even give it away for free, subject of course to our Terms of Service."

One would think, reading this, then that one really OWNS the land they buy and their avatar and their builds, etc.--TELL ME--what is the term of tier payments to OWN the land? --no matter how you look at it you are renting it from LL and they can pull the plug tomorrow.--say BuhBye

Yet the SAME TOS says LL owns all Lindens and every little byte and bit.

Can't have it both ways.

The TOS describes what is called "Community Standards" of ethics and behavior, but this is ignored and then cancelled by other sections of the TOS in terms of any responsibility of LL to enforce Community Standards. ie., Banks, scams etc.

Hack attorneys wallowing in and exploiting loopholes are scabs on the wounds--not at all the Kool-Aid philosophy as presented in the advertising---we are supposed to believe about SL as advertised. In short SL is a wolf in Sheeps clothing and trusting souls, entering SL will get screwed.

Can't resist this:

Ultimately the exchanges are providing a "service". Some, like WSE are being operated as a way to screw people out of their funds and as someone who has a strong background, experience, and education in the real-life equity sector it was obvious to me that WSE was operating as a scam and as such I never placed a single L$ into it. It is extremely unfortunate that yes Luke has in effect found a way to screw people out of a lot of money via the means he is using, however not all of the SL exchanges are operated as such. Someone mentioned that ACE and the SLEC are operated by the same person. While IntLibber, who is the primary owner of ACE, was the founder of SLEC, he turned over the operation of it to others who had the right real-life background to head it up and who were not directly involved with the management of any of the exchanges (as should be the case for such an organization). What he was trying to do was set up standards for self-regulation of the SL commodities exchanges so that they could continue to operate with ethics and watch out for the investors (by trying to minimize scam artists who try to screw investors out of their L$’s). Someone above also talked about it being illegal if it is not controlled and regulated by the SEC, however the SEC is swamped with trying to regulate real-world publicly traded companies and even then the companies that they regulate screw over investors fairly regularly due to there being so many that are scams (yes, real-life publicly traded companies). And someone said that you should not invest into the SL exchanges unless you want to lose your money, but what they should have said is that you should not invest what you cannot afford to lose, regardless of if it is in SL or real-life, as there are no guarantees in business. I think it was the same person that referred to it as gambling, which is correct, however investing (in SL as in real-life) is a form of gambling, however it is gambling based primarily on skill rather than chance (although chance and luck often do still play a part). Anyone who knows squat about how business works knows that in real-life investing (as in investing in SL) that if you are willing to do your homework and research the companies that you invest into it greatly increases your chances for success. Look at all the people who have recently been screwed over by the 100+ year old companies that have been trusted by millions around the globe with their real-life funds and lost millions and in some cases billions in real-life funds due to bad gambles on mortgaged backed securities (which anyone who was truly paying attention could see this crash coming more than 2-3 years ago before it even started (there were several indicators prior to the real-estate crash in the U.S. that the crash was coming, and yet millions of people turned a blind eye to the obvious and got screwed because of it)). As such with risk comes reward, if you are not willing to take a risk then you are less likely to see substantial rewards. Therefore, if you feel that exchanges are not safe, do not invest your Lindens into them. If you do invest into them, be sure that you truly know what you are investing into (what the company does, what their products are, know what principles they operate under and what their management strategy is, what their assets are (and be sure to check to see that the assets that they claim to have are real, or at least real from a virtual standpoint when it comes to investing into SL based companies).

And before anyone says anything about it, yes I am biased, because I manage L$ investments for people and serve on the ACE Board of Directors. After having spent roughly a year watching the different exchanges and reading over their operational information and such, I chose to focus the majority of what I do with ACE, as it is the most principled of the exchanges in how it operates. And someone said something about them using the funds from ACE to fund the Woodburry University sims, this is flat out wrong and that person should really learn to check the facts prior to making such false statements. Woodburry is paying BnT (related to ACE, but a different company) to provide sims, management services, and security for those sims (to solve the griefer problems that they were having).

trust me

What f**king service???? THERE IS NO SERVICE! There never has been any service from any of these places and the idea is ludicrous that there could be. Pray tell what can you possibly provide someone? Security? Growth?

ALL PLACES THAT STATE "Trust me with your Lindens" are scams.

But hey, then again I have no pity for anyone stupid enough to put thier money in any of these places.