Buying Land on Private Estates

Ceera I'm not on the mainland, we are a cluster of 25 private sims far out to sea (soon to be 28 any day now).

Nobody has to be a premium member, and we don't share borders with anyone, though someone or other asks to 'join up' their sims to us every few days.

Not wanting to 'pounce' to correct you though - just saying it friendly! hugs

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As for why people would rent land (I sure don't call it 'buying') - pop by some private estates and ask the residents.

It's a risk tradeoff. The risk of losing maybe 50 USD to a financially troubled island, versus losing all enjoyment of 50 USD of mainland because someone made a cathouse for chimps next door.

When I started Caledon I thought maybe 3 or 4 people would be interested, and help me offset costs a bit. I was a weee bit off, on my first appraisal.

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Second comment re: 'leasing' or whatever you call it by offering a refund for land fees on a private island:

"Less than nice" can cut two ways - it just depends who gets cut, and how. Either the leaving tenants, or the staying tenants. Let's look at this carefully.

Say Joe Landbaron 'leases' a sim completely at $L 6.8 per meter. That raises the 1675 USD needed to get the sim in the first place.

So now everyone is happily paying tier and it's good times.

Six months go by, and suddenly tenant Tina Queenbee has a disastrous falling out with her boyfriend, Johnny Cool. She declares she's done with Second Life (while secretly making an alt). Her departure triggers a circle of eight friends to decide that it's time to just go, the drama was icky anyway.

The eight people go to Joe Landbaron and say: we want our money back now! Half a sim of land. Eight hundred thirty seven dollars, and fifty cents. Right. Now.

But Joe Landbaron doesn't have the money to refund - he's sitting on it! He purchased the sim with it.

So now he's got a choice: a) stiff the leaving people, or b) sell the sim to pay them, thereby stiffing the people who were dumb enough to stay. There's no way he's going to get the full 1675 USD for his sim - you could get a new one for that with no strings attached.

I'd be *very* wary of any sim owner who offered refunds, due to this economic reality. I don't believe land refunds are generally offered to 'sucker' anyone, but I doubt many have done the math.

Refunds are mostly a nonissue in today's good market. But when times get real tough and occupancy plummets, just remember, if you promised to buy everyone's land back you have to do it. And if you promised it, you'll be digging deep into your own personal finances to do it.

Here's proof. It takes almost a year for a solid full, *good* sim's profit margin to generate the reserve cash to pay for itself. Premium sims only generate maybe 2000 USD profit each per year, and if you count the man-hours you invest into them as worth anything at all, they are deeply negative.

So unless you are going to open your own wallet and pass money out, you will have to work in SL 20 hours a week or so for free for the better part of a year, to back up full refund of an entire island at typical rates. One modest exodus and the sim is in deep financial trouble - not fun for those wanting to stay at all.

The ones that I've seen that limit or disallow sky-platforms do so because they want something that conforms to a certain look, and having boxes (however nicely done) hovering over the land (however high up) goes against the intention of the private island. Granted, I've mostly seen ones that limit, not disallow - the limit being that the sky-platforms have to be above a certain height.

Edit: I need to write faster, how the heck did Desmond Shang write all that so quickly?
Edit 2: Ah, because he was answering a different question . .. oops

after all, the most beautiful sky deck could block someone's sunset view and hence be considered an eyesore.

My apologies, Desmond! Where the devil did I get the idea you were on the mainland? Ah well. My error, entirely, dear. The very few times I popped in to Caledon to shop, I TP'ed directly in and out, and didn't really look at a map. Hadn't even realized it was Caledon until the third or fourth visit.

I mostly named you and Caledon as an example of someone who is *certainly* very reputable as an SL landlord. And if Caledon *was* mainland, it would have been a good example of a beautifully maintained set of sims. Can't think of anyone else off-hand who I know *is* mainland and who I know has such a good reputation as you do, dear.

We may be saying the same thing, but you were giving it a different slant and I wanted to correct some misconceptions you may have given. As far as terraforming you will generally find far more freedom on an island sim than on a mainland, for the very reason that the mainland is limited to +/- 4m. If you want to change it more than that, you really have no choice but to buy on a private island. And ones that have covenants allowing more than +/- 4 m are quite easy to find. So this is a definite advantage to pi


hmm, I've owned land in 3 different estates and looked at land in far more, and have never found a restriction except for the lower limit.



And I was pointing out that there is a hard limit terrafroming on the mainland that covenant or not you can't get around.

ok kevyn. you win.

I'm sure I read somewhere than on old mainland sims, there is greater flexibility regarding terraforming. I can't remember where I read that, I could be making this up!

The private sims that I have lived in which regulated sky builds usually wanted to keep them above the cloud deck, so the view for homes on the ground looks more natural. Themed sims, like a tropical island build, may tend to keep your sky stuff higher, or even require the theme to be maintained on sky builds. (For which reason I once had a tropical-themed skybox with bamboo walls and a bamboo-fenced garden on top).

I've seen some sims that placed no limits on sky builds, where the air was so full of low-hanging sky builds that it looked like a child had upended their play set town and things were falling forn the sky en-masse. Lots of low-level floating, faatureless blocks look pretty tacky, to me.

No, that is true. There are a few where which do have higher limits.

Oh, I didn't even know there was something to win or lose.

I take your point Desmond - actually my covenant simply says "give me first refusal please". That refund I did because of other reasons to do with the resident I won't go into here. And your example could be said to be tending toward the extreme, although admittedly I have only a few months' experience to go on. But I still feel the same, economically unwise or no, that people have given me their money and I would be extremely uncomfortable retaining any part of that without good cause. That said, I'm operating little more than a tenth of your holdings in Caledon and it IS still an affordable pastime for me away from RL. The money I've put in I regard as sunk costs and the price I've paid to go down the route that I have, and I was fortunate enough to be able to refund the only "lessee" I've ever had. Were I ever to treat this as a money making or at least cost covering exercise then yes, I would be following your SL Land Business 101 considerably more closely!

Inc

I agree with Desmond about the economics of buying and renting out sims. The upfront and ongoing costs of renting out sims is so large that, in general, you cannot issue refunds. I only issue a refund if I've made a mistake somehow, and I have issued them on very infrequent occasions. However, they are the exception to the rule and I have refused to issue refunds when I thought they were not justified.

As far as cloud decks/skypads go, I've always allowed them because 1) no one has ever complained, 2) they are usually above the clouds and 3) I try to be as lenient as possible. I'm slowly getting less lenient as time goes on about certain things, such as privacy walls. It's a tricky call with private estates, because you have to balance the natural creativity of Second Life with the understandable desire to avoid eyesores. One person's eyesore, another's work of art, meh.

freedom of terraforming is one major reason I prefer private islands in general. So much more freedom in that regard. If your project depends a lot on the land formations, its the only way to go. Well worth the extra money you will pay for a private island, in so many ways.

goodness gracious, I love terraforming.

Yes, some of the older mainland sims have full +- 60 meters terraforming limits. You're correct. I think a lot of them are class 3's though. Not to mention, the land is usually quite expensive in those sims, if you can get into one at all.

Ceera, I'm secretly proud you came by and enjoyed yourself without even knowing where you were. Might sound strange, but that made my day. As for being reputable... I try hard. Don't always succeed - I've made mistakes both financial and social - but I do try. Thank you for your kind words



That's pretty much the key Incanus - once even one resident gives $L for anything, it's pretty important to cover costs inworld and do basic diligence to ensure the sims will remain.

It's a lot tougher, I think, for the one sim people than the ten or twenty sim people.

At twenty sims, you pretty much know you are here for the duration. At one sim, there's a good chance a person may simply decide: "I've had eight months of terrible drama and the next eighteen look the same - and I'm paying to do this!? buh-bye!" It's certainly not 'worth it' financially.

Here was my 'epiphany' moment waaay back: I'd once let land out for $L 0 down, just like you. Well guess what happened.

I soon filled up. People waiting to get in were charged anywhere from $L 40k to $L 65k to 'get into' Caledon, by enterprising residents who got in for nothing.

So basically I paid 1250 USD down (back in the old days) and the land was 'sold' anyway. Except I didn't ever see a dime of it, because it wasn't me taking money for it. Instead I was run ragged, serving the very people 'selling off' my own sim for me - Des, get over here, land transfer! Eyah. Right away.

I didn't mind losing the cost of the sim. Fair dinkum, I said they could do it, I stuck to my side of it.

But I did mind my community filling with land speculators seeking to harvest Caledon land and residents for cash. At the end of the day, there was only one way to prevent passing money out like candy. And that was to suppress margins a land speculator might make off me in Caledon - by charging a land fee myself. And I won't even *begin* to explain how problematic an 'I'll refund you, if you are causing us problems' covenant can be... grin

But besides all that, Incanus I think you are one of the 'good guys' - and it's key to protect yourself. If you are not covering costs, even if you can personally afford it, it's not good for the residents in your sims. They need you to 'win' - because when you win, so do they.

I avoid the mainland at all costs, I will only go there if I absolutely have to! They are usually lagged and swarmed with hideous builds, floating prims and junk all over, I actually find it quite depressing.
The only way to get land on a private island is through a 3rd part, and it most cases, it is no different than having land through LL, you never really own it.
The difference is... at least they way I and most people run their estates are... you don't need a premium account, they are zoned, either commercial or residential, you can pay with L$ or USD, and there are some minor restrictions like no eye sores and such.
There are also alot of benefits, the view, the support, little or no lag.. etc.
The only main difference is you are paying the estate owner not LL, either one can take your land at will. Although if you go through a well known or established estate owner, I don't think you will have that problem at all.

As a lifetime account holder with 4096m free tier, I have purchased my last parcel for having had too much ugly spring up around me. It took me a few years to see the benefit of renting from a reputable landlord.

(I guess that makes LL a "landlord of ill-repute" )

I'm with you on the land speculators. They seem to have a knack for making any sim they invade just craptastic, even on private sims. Saw that in action out in Ansheland.

Hm. If someone isn't charging a land fee - they should treat the land as pure rental, with land resell off and when they decide to no longer stay, it goes back to the owner of the sim.

But I prefer how you do it these days... though I wonder how you manage to keep up with 24 sims!

Oh, there is some grat stuff on the mainland. Just yesterday I ran across a beautiful bridge in Yelas

Somewhere I remember running across a list of the sims with those, but darned if I can find it now.

Thanks for the great information and insight there Desmond. I had never even thought about speculators taking advantage of desirable property in that way. The only steps I've taken to try and prevent folks taking advantage, is I do not allow subletting or reselling. I'm definately one of the small-time folks, I have a single island now which will be 6 months old next week, and plans to add a second island before the end of this month.

As I've seen some comments/questions re. skyboxes, my covenant allows floating structures above 350m and, as with many places, the building codes are relaxed above that height.

-Atashi

Sorry, but that's simply a sales speech, not the reality.

You're right that selling the land is a way to break even, but you conveniently leave out the fact that you end up with an island that cost you absolutely nothing and that you can still resell when you grow tired of renting it out. Sims don't really deprecate in value (the resale value of "old" sims was far above their initial purchase price) so the money put in when you started is the money you get back when you pull out.

I'd gently disagree.

First, island sims don't go for very much due to the trust barrier.

At 1675 USD it just makes more sense to buy a new one, rather than pray a deal with an anonymous stranger will go through. Class 4 sims are likely to lose their tier advantage in mere months, and then just be underperforming dogs on the sim market. Even class 5's are likely to be yesterday's hardware, again, in short order. Reality is, they are terrible as investments.


Second - yes, we all like to help people.

But it's a very different animal when you are *expected* to be on frequently in a service situation, every night, for hours, forever. In a situation where people will regularly be more abusive than you'd face working at McDonalds, for less money.

I've dreamed of taking screenshots of the IM's, notecards, crises and so forth I face upon login, and posting it. You don't see the 3d world through it all. (I can't post such a thing because it's private communication).

I do think sim owners deserve something for their time. Even if they only have one sim, it's a phenomenal amount of hard work.

Desmond, you certainly have patience. Probably more than I do. *hats off*

Living with 2 sims (and now a further 4 openspace ones) I know whereof Des speaks... to a minor degree! And thank you Des for your kind words from before - I do currently *just* cover my tier (and have taken your comment in an earlier thread to heart - I have 3 month's worth of tier set aside) and I review my overall position pretty frequently. At the moment it's all rentals, so I'm managing on that basis.. should that ever change then a new business model arises, and one I have - to an extent - prepared for.

Off topic - I'm a member of a few "island advisory council" type groups - are these of any use? My initial view is no, given the lack of activity and apparent lack of interaction with LL - happy to take PMs or create a new thread

Inc