Is everything a mall?

1) Vacation spots: That is already possible in SL - there are "purchase to enter" ban lines or however that is worded.

2) Already in SL. That woman who I can't recall the name of now has opened up museums and the like in SL. Though most of the time she is bashed in the SL forums (something about 10L stuff mass produced).

3) oppose

Wow, I really like this idea. Of course, it doesn't have to be LL - could be some wealthy philanthropist, too. But LL coming up with something like that would encourage people to put their building skills to use to create a wonderful environment.

Maybe someone should put in a JIRA with the suggestion

And who is going to compensate people who already create beautiful environments without handouts from LL? Are you ok with alientating people who already do such work that may not be approved for such a "grant" out of supply/demand?

And are you going to pay the increase on my tier to cover the costs of operating such a program? Sims are not free, you know. The hardware, the people maintaining the hardware, and everything in between has a pricetag for LL.

I'm all for private philantropy, if individuals want to donate to the public good, I'm all for it, I'll be right in line with my wallett open. But i don't want LL favoring any group at the expense of the other.

Oh and another version of Vacation spots in SL: You can set land to group entry only, and you can set entry to a group to cost some amount of money.

It must have been the "thingies" keyword?

All the grid's a mall,
And all the avatars merely consumers;
They have their vendors and LMs;
And one avatar in his time plays many parts...



-Atashi

Burnman --

I propose nothing. I'm merely pointing out ways in which public works might be funded. Don't snarl at me, please. Aside from your argumentative tone, I take it that you favor Philanthropy. Thank you for you input.

Lexxi --

Yes. In fact, every one of those methods is at work somewhere in SL, even the "Linden donated " land...e.g. Orientation Island, Infohubs, Linden Village, Linden protected water, etc.

What I'm hoping for is some discussion on their pros and cons. And, are there other methods that I've missed?

Actually, I didn't want to admit that all I put in the search box was "Bull Riding"

Restricted access vacation spots without LL (only group member access, and some set fee to join the group; or "buy a day pass":
Pros:
1) Money and tier from group members
2) An attempt at restricting griefers from access (maybe)
3) the people that want to visit a particular type of thing can pay for it
4) the people that want to build a particular type of thing can have land/tier/prims
5) does not involve LL, which may or may not "change its mind" or "dictate the terms" or cause the entire project to fall under a "cloud of envy" (as in - LL is helping them, why?)

Cons:
1) Ban lines
2) Visitor access limited (have to be a group member)
3) Requirement of being a group member might keep traffic count down, making it harder to find
4) internal bickering of group members
5) cost to causal visitor
6) Does not involve LL (involvement of LL might keep the project at the awareness level of LL, and that might keep LL from "doing something stupid" that harms the project)

Open Access Vacation spots without LL (open to all visitors; see Forum Hangout Land, I think, though group is not open access, any can ask to join):
Pros:
1) no Ban lines
2) Visitor access not limited (does not have to be a group member to visit)
3) No cost to causal visitor (which may or may not increase traffic numbers, making it easier to find)
4) Money and tier from group members potential (but potentially smaller group with less resources?)
5) Does not involve LL

Cons:
1) Potentially less Money and tier (prim) for builder (not always the case)
2) internal bickering of group members
2) Greater ability of griefer attacks
3) does not involve LL, which may or may not "change its mind" or "dictate the terms" or cause the entire project to fall under a "cloud of envy" (as in - LL is helping them, why?)
4)
5)

The Philanthropist:
Pro:
1) Can build whatever he/she wants (or pay for someone else to do the build)
2) Potentially less bickering (depends on the philanthropist/builder/anyone else involved)
3) Open access (assumed)
4) No ban lines (assumed)

Con:
1) potentially more bickering (depends on the philanthropist/builder/anyone else involved)

Government built (LL):
Pros:
1) Needed resources are covered (open protected water sims/roads/etc.)
2) no ban lines (assumed)
2) no tier for "worthy causes" as deemed by LL (I assume LL does not bill itself)
3) the cultural enrichment of SL (assumed)
4) open access (assumed)

Cons:
1) No ability of individual to "control" or "do something" if LL does something "bad" (ugly road/etc.)
2) the potential to stifle rival attractions (if there is a LL backed library/theme park/water sim, there is a potential that rival attractions would not be economically viable)

Government Donated (LL)
Pro:
1) no ban lines (assumed)
2) no tier for "worthy causes" (assumed)
3) the cultural enrichment of SL (assumed)
4) open access (assumed)

Cons:
1) Envy/favortism/etc.
2) If just donated, no one might have strong control, leading to potential abuse (griefers)
3) the potential to stifle rival attractions (if there is a LL backed library/theme park/water sim, there is a potential that rival attractions would not be economically viable)

That barn has already burned. LL has been offering half price islands with 150US$ a month tier to RL educational and non-profits for several years now. It would be nice for in-world nonprofits to have similar treatment.

Carl, that's a clever point of view. Have you suggested to them that NCI is, in effect, an "educational, nonprofit" organization?


And, Lexxi...that's a very concise, yet thorough analyis. You get a gold star on your report card.

And I'm sure they get a nice write off for it too.

LL can Donate, or subsidize all they want as long as they absorb the cost, and don't pass it on to us. It would be like me giving money to a RL charity, then asking my neighbor to give me the money to replace it.

Please forgive my tone... been a hot & cold sort of day at work today, and I overreacted. Sorry for that.

I do agree, but it's even more complicated than that- and it's an issue similar to real life. A lot of free, for-your-enjoyment areas in SL are actually supported by stores or malls- and the teleport point into those places is often the mall. I don't see this as very different from your local zoo or museum having a gift shop right by the entrance. Where do you draw the line between commercial and non-commercial?

Now in real life there are some non-commercial beaches and parks and lovely vistas without tourist traps and gift shops- but those are all paid for by taxpayers; everyone shares the burden of maintaining those places. This just doesn't apply very well to Second Life where there's only one person on the hook for island fees. The need to generate revenue to support public places is thus a lot more accute and obvious in-world.

That's why most of the gorgeous parks in SL have tip jars out to help with the upkeep and tier. If people enjoy it, they tip. I usually tip The Lost Gardens of Apollo a couple of thousand L$ every time I'm there. Let the public decide what's worth keeping. I don't want LL to have to run around judging if places are eligible for a tier reduction. They have enough to do what with ARs, grid problems, etc. Do you honestly think this is a wise use of their time?

Not to mention that a Free Market is what keeps LL in business in the first place.

zOMG! You mean LL has been actually using tier money to pay for these so-called non-profits?!?!?! How dare they! They could have given everybody that pays tier a rebate instead! Time for me to spam every blog entry on the SL blog with this! People need to know, dammit!

[For the humour-impaired: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satire ]

That's exactly how Caledon works. I do take a percentage of income out to support common lands all over the place.

I won't bore anyone with figures but in terms of pure land it's several sim's worth of common land (double prim methods allow me to make forests or mountains of the remaining) and in terms of prims/tier it's roughly one full sim these days.

The percentage taken out for this is actually pretty small and you came surprisingly close with your 5% figure. I believe it's running about 6-7% right now.

If you add up my community benefit expenses like that, and yes even my personal income from land barony, Caledon is still competitive due to the tier discount on a large amount of land.

Wow, kudos to Lindal and Lexxi for their awesome posts. It's nice to see serious insight put to well-crafted word once in a while. Thank you.

What to add...

I think if a sim wants to create something unique to the grid, and charge an entry fee/due (one time, monthly, annual), then more power to them. It will either profit or it won't--I think it depends on who's running the show--there are a few people I know I would gladly invest in to get something like this off the ground...and there are other people on the other hand...we won't go there.

If the price was reasonable, I might seriously consider joining a private group/club/sim if it offered just what I was looking for. And knowing that it's 'exclusive' alone is enough to draw in those who prefer to think of themselves as privileged.

There's so much crap out there that if a really solid 'get away' was created housing events, unique locations, exclusive membership and an amicable community...it might be worth joining--I wouldn't join if it started costing me chunks of USD. I would only join if it ran me around the same as placing a moderate SL classified.

Two problems.

1. NCI is a purely in-world organization. We don't have any sort of RL incorporation or 501c3 status. We could apply for such, but it would cost at a minimum about 1000US$.

2. Secondly, we really don't _need_ an island. We are spread out around Second Life with four campuses. One mainland campus (in Kuula--about 15000 m2) that we pay tier on and have tier donated for. One mainland campus (in Hamnida--about 7500 m2) that the land is donated to us, tier free. One campus on part of an island (in Fishermans Cove--about 10,000 m2) where the land is donated to us, tier free. One Openspace sim in Caledon (Nova Civis Caledon--about 65,500 m2--but with only 1875 prims) that we pay tier in L$ to Desmond Shang for. Finally, we have begun to develop "mini-NCIs" near InfoHubs that I'm sure will have equally baroque combinations of gifts, tier in US$, tier in L$, etc.

While some sort of mainland tier credit for NCI would be nice, it would be of only marginal use. However--there are LOTS of other in-world nonprofit organizations, large and small, that could use such tier breaks.

That's one of the reasons Caledon is such a beautiful place to live! Many of Caledon's residents also provide some public space, too.

Most smart estate developers offer some public spaces. I know Dreamland and Azure Islands have some as well.

Zee stated on several occasions that the educational portion of the grid is an actual real loss to LL so it does indeed gets subsidized by the rest of us.

I'd rather see those 2000 sims subsidized and owned by residents who can use them to create something worthwhile for a good portion of all residents, than have them go to waste on a useless and deserted virtual campus.

(Found one quote I remembered: "We are committed to providing them significant discounts – at this point below our costs." - http://blog.secondlife.com/2006/11/01/we-heard-you-private-island-pricing-increase-delayed-until-november-15th/#comment-13578)

That is an interesting point, Carl, and Kitty's, too.

However, we are not "real" and have never been "real." Only real-world people are real. It is our job to subsidize them, encourage their entry, and make their efforts possible.

cynicalcoco

Actually, it is considerably less. I did my own 501c3 for my organization. Costs broke out as follows:

$20 E-book "Prepare Your Own 501c3 Application"
$30 State fee to file as Non-Profit Corp
$40 Corporate Kit
$150 IRS Filing Fee

It was a lot of work, but was able to complete all steps myself.

I love NCI. You guys have a nice setup. Good people involved. I check out classes from time to time. I also enjoy the modeling Pictionary game...