About ethics: right or wrong?

I can say the exact same thing to you and the others on your side of the fence. You can be as dismissive as you want, but you're doing nothing more than dismissing yourself with that comment.



So do everyone else. The only issue is whether those "personal" boundaries fall on ethical lines or not.



If you're ruining my SL experience, *I* do. I think everyone else does, too, whether they realize it or not.



As far as I am concerned, I simply do not do business with unethical businessmen. I know quite a few people in RL who feel the same way, and are quite happy to take their business elsewhere. There are actually "business network" clubs, some of them formed around the local Chambers of Commerce where I live, that will actively boycott other businesses who are engaged in underhanded tactics. Not talking about a few members, but hundreds to thousands in a small county-sized area. That's a pretty good-sized chunk of customers for a small business to lose.

In SL, though, the number of people who probably care is pretty small by comparison. That said, any business that dismisses the savvy and intelligence of its customers is going to lose significant revenue, even in SL.



There are hundreds of successful businesses operating in SL, making book using what you refer to as "Idealism". As such, that's nothing more than a rationalization.



That's more or less an apology for personal justification. People who choose to steal from their neighbors can justify doing so to themselves enough to go through with it, and not feel bad about it afterwards. That still doesn't make it right or ethical.

Having a personal moral compass is invaluable. However, even if you use it regularly, if it isn't calibrated against a common set of morals, it will be less than useless.



No one said that things were "black and white". However, when one clearly operating in the black, additional levels of contrast are unnecessary.



Ah yes, the old "forum minority" argument. Well, tell ya what. If you REALLY want to know, put up a sign in your business that details your business ethics in neutral language, that asks every customer for their opinion on the matter, if they have one. That way you can get a statistically-significant sample which will make you happy.



I wouldn't hold my breath on that last hope.

No it's not gaming. We've been through the picks issue umpteen times, people choose to be included, the same as they choose to be included in groups who offer monthly raffles or prize draws for having their location in a pick or give away monthly items.

A parcel that offered camping and attracted people who camped wasn't gaming either, that LL choose to forbid it now doesn't mean it was gaming. They just got fed up of the complaints, using an army of traffic bots or an army of bots to boost your picks is a different issue.



People hang around lucky chairs, midnight mania boards etc. I don't see why the product being waited upon is relevant, your argument is that they're hanging around generating traffic.



Again why is that relevant? Hunting means increased traffic points, your logic dictates you think that's bad.



Again, what has the product got to do with it? You've been complaining that rewards equal gaming, to pick and choose would be hypocritical.



How many parties and events are about the product? If people go to listen to a singer or a DJ what has that got to do with the products on sale? This is where your logic gets just a tad silly. There are umpteen reasons why someone may be at a parcel.



Perfection, the sort of perfection you're calling for, would lead to a very sterile and boring Second Life where people are required to justify every move they make before counting in picks or traffic.

IMO the problem is much wider than that even! This is what these preachers want.....and it's a very dangerous game they're playing. A vocal minority influencing LL decision processes at every turn.....so they arrive at their version of Utopia, but hardly anyone elses!

Also, you notice step by step, it's becoming increasingly hard for Noob to earn any Lindens in game.....almost to the point, they either live off Freebies or forced to buy Lindens by going PIOF. Maybe that's LL bigger picture!

ah hah! We agree on something.

Yes

I lubs yer really!

"Such as" does not mean "limited to".

The purpose of traffic bots is to be deceptive: to increase traffic stats in order to achieve a higher ranking in a list where traffic stats are used as a criteria.

On your behalf, you are open about it, which IMHO makes it less unethical than secret deception. But it's still deception, in my book, and unethical.

Ethics are subjective because they're based on values. Rational, intelligent people can disagree. You can argue that deception isn't unethical, but you can't make a good argument that traffic bots aren't intended to deceive. The fact that you're focused on the end goal (ranking) doesn't get you off the hook for the intermediate consequences (misleading traffic stats).

Of course, it's ultimately LL's fault that people like you do this (or did this, if that's now the case). It's their fault because, as well all should know, you get what you measure, and they are the ones who chose to measure traffic the way they did. The fact that many businesses would use traffic bots is a foregone conclusion. That doesn't mean that the behavior is ethical: it depends on what your ethical system is.

~~~~~~~~

I wouldn't extend my disagreement with Phil about business ethics to impy that Phil is completely unethical. No, he just does things that I consider unethical. That wouldn't bother me so much if he didn't use weasly arguments to defend it. No offense to mustelids, Argent!

BTW, I missed something completely about this thread.

I've had some business dealings with Marcel, and found him to be completely ethical, even though I don't agree with his statement that as long as LL permits it, it's by definition ethical. (It doesn't correspond with his behavior, either.)

But evidently he's being criticised for something specific here. Can someone please fill me in?

Thanks

Because he agrees with Phil.

The purpose if traffic bots is to increase traffic stats in order to achieve a higher ranking in a list where traffic stats are used as a criteria. Everything is out in the open so there is nothing deceptive about it.

But why start on it now? It's long gone history.

It's the same old same old - Picks. Plus the new soon to be old - keyword-stuffing.

OK, thanks for the clarification.

As I said, intelligent, well-meaning people can disagree on these things.

That doesn't mean you're not a turd, Phil!

Yeah, but a sweet smelling one

I'm coming over tonite to put you both in my Picks. Just because I can.

You have to get Sling's permission first.......she needs to evaluate whether it's going to be an ethical Picks placement or not....and that no money exchanged hands nor any special favours offered (including sexual) in order to count as a qualifying Pick!



.

Put jPose in your picks! Be the first one on your block! (Or maybe the 2st person inworld who's not associated with it ...)

Sorry, no payments. However, sexual favors can be arranged.

Hey, it's the only place in SL where you can get a real "spin the bottle" game!

(/me unethically derails this thread to promote his business.)

Well, you'll just have to take my word for it, there won't be money or low prim furniture or plants (or other favors) exchanged, just my choice to put some stuff in my Picks.

Well, if you *must* light the bloody fuse .....

Excellent!
In that case you have my permission to place them.


Ordinarily you would have to present yourself at one of my parcels and be interrogated by a webserver-backed scripted prim. I'll let this one go through on the nod. Your stated reasons for placing ghr Picks seem acceptable to me.

Go in peace, Treasure

Yes it is gaming. "We've been through the picks issue umpteen times."
The only rationale for using Picks as IBLs for ranking is that people are voting for the content of parcel. If a parcel sets out to buy votes for ready cash, that is an abuse of the rationale.
If you say that the payment for picks is part of the parcel content, then I say pull the other one.




I don't suppose that you've spent much time looking at JIRA. If complaints were what drove SL, an awful lot of people would be very, very happy.




If the product is good enough that people want it, than that is an indication of quality/popularity.
If the people can only be attracted by cash rewards, it says noting about the desirability of the product.



You would save yourself a lot of typing if you read what you are quoting.
You quoted me as saying "It would be imperfect if traffic not related to the core business of a parcel counted towards ranking for the business.
But hey! We know that overall it's going to be imperfect."
It's not my logic that's a tad silly. It's your reading and comprehension that's silly.
I'm saying that people going to an event has nothing much to do with the product. The use of Traffic for ranking is imperfect. However, at least the traffic generated by an enjoyable event represents the parcel giving something (other than cash) to the community.




Again, you are reading a different meaning.
Perfection for me, in this topic - is where people are not gaming. I said "It would be great if it were perfection, but that's unlikely to happen."
That's because Perfection is an unattainable fantasy, given human nature.

Nowhere have I indicated that I would wish to see the sort of drab Orwellian SL that you seem to be imagining for me.

Well you better get ready to say pull the other one then, the incentive from the payment enables a person to have a more enjoyable Second Life as a whole and for that they are willing to place the parcel as a pick. That parcel means something to that person.



Fair point on the Jira, it's a painful experience. However there's nowt technically deceitful about advertising camping, providing camping and having a traffic score that reflects people came to the parcel for the purpose of said advertised camping.



A business won't be open for long if people are only attracted by cash rewards. However your take is that rewards are cheating, the quality of the product is irrelvant, if you see rewards as cheating then any rewards that involve someone going to the parcel to claim said reward is cheating.




Traffic will always be imperfect. Traffic is not and never will be a fair ranking factor. There are umpteen reasons for this, the size of a parcel is one reason. The layout of a store is another. Traffic reflects how many visitors a parcel gets and how long they stay, we can't tell if that consists of 10 avatars spending 100 minutes or 100 avatars spending 10 minutes. The recent changes probably mean those scores will be slightly different now, but not different enough to tell us much about the parcel.



Rules, regulations and strict guidelines will indeed lead to a drab existence. Imagine there's a store, it sells all sorts of goodies but it also has social games like a quiz machine, quiz machines attract people, they get nosey, they look over people's shoulders and many can't resist shouting out the answers, they get drawn in. However people generally have fun, yet the chances are you'd cry foul because the quiz machine isn't part of the core business of said parcel and that's where you encourage a dull experience.

I did. Lear placed it and I lit it. It must have been a dud.

You're a treasure, Treasure

You seem absolutely determined to ignore the meaning of what you are quoting.

I said clearly that if the reward for Pick or Presence is cash, then that says nothing about the quality/desirability of the product.
If the the reward is product, then it says something about the quality/desirability of the product because people are prepared to give some time in order to get it.

I said "I'm saying that people going to an event has nothing much to do with the product. The use of Traffic for ranking is imperfect. However, at least the traffic generated by an enjoyable event represents the parcel giving something (other than cash) to the community."

Despite your quoting me saying these things, you then go on to attribute opinions to me that contradict what you quoted me as saying.

You're having me at it! You're saying gifts are ok for rewarding picks but cash isn't? This is quite a revelation!




Yes but you also talked of it not being the core business of the parcel. That's where it starts to get silly. It's more important to point out what traffic is and isn't than to question the means all the time.