Second Life Forums Archive - yikes! The map's half yellow!

Lincoln Lupino

Hats & Slats Maker

Join date: 3 Dec 2006

Posts: 122

10-12-2007 11:14

From: Ciaran Laval

I own freehold land. Now the government can build on it, they need to pay me for it. They can of course put in a compulsory purchase order but it's my land.

My friend owns leasehold land, when his lease expires he can lose everything. That's the LL model, you don't pay your lease, you lose it. They close down, they owe you nothing. It's leasehold.

Actually under this theory..... we lease everything on SL.... our clothes, our textures, our scripts...... because if LL pulls the plug, its all gone..... with nada compensation. Its all virtual and its all subject to a user contract that essentially gives the user no rights.

That being said, one has to have some faith to spend money here in SL. The major difference between estate land and mainland is that if you pay your tier on your mainland properties, you will have their continued use. On the estate side of things, there is the additional wrinkle that you could be booted for other reasons..... or no reason at all. To buy esate land, you must have faith in LL and also in your estate owner.

Ciaran Laval

Mostly Harmless

Join date: 11 Mar 2007

Posts: 7,951

10-12-2007 11:16

From: Mistyn Laval

The MAIN difference....

Buying from LL is direct, payments go to them and short of violating the TOS or not making payments, the land isnt going anywhere and you can do what you want, sell when you want, chop it up, kill the land value around you etc.

Agreed, mainland has less restrictions, some people like that.

From: Mistyn Laval

Renting from a resident is paying weekly or monthly, amounts of control are limited.

Agreed, there are restrictions in place, some people like that. Neither point makes a different to the terminology of leasing however.

From: Mistyn Laval

Leasing from a resident is 'buying' their land which they retain full control of and can poof at any time as well as paying them the weekly or monthly amount, again controls are limited.

Right, now you're into trust. This is a different issue. LL are the most trustworthy landlord here, pointing out to people that the private estate model is riskier, is a different issue. It's an issue that is fully justified and well worth raising.

From: Mistyn Laval

If I am tossing down a chunk of cash I would rather that LL was the landlord instead of another resident who can do whatever they want and I could just lose the money in the end. I dont want to put down a chunk of cash anyway, this is why I rent. Cant understand why you are so hell bent on making 'buying' the same in both respects, it clearly isnt and everyone who rents, buys or leases should be informed of this. Though, sadly, many are NOT and lose a lot in the end.

So you prefer mainland, you trust LL. That's fine, but your whole argument against using a different term for private estate is to do with a lack of trust of private landlords. As I've said, these are points worth making but the basic point is, that if a private landlord allows you to resell then:

Avatar "buys" land, Avatar keeps up tier payments, landlord is honest, Avatar "sells" land.

This is the same principle as buying from LL.

Avatar "buys" land from LL, Avatar keeps up membership/tier payments, LL are honest, Avatar "sells" land.

Trying to say that those models are so very different is misleading.

It's a question of trust and as I've said, the trust issue is well worth raising, as is the fact that many private landlords don't allow you to resell, in which case it's very different from the LL model.

Ciaran Laval

Mostly Harmless

Join date: 11 Mar 2007

Posts: 7,951

10-12-2007 11:19

From: Toy LaFollette

If we must be technical then I would call them......

"Leasing" land = buying mainland that you own and pay LL tier on

"Renting" land or property = paying a weekly or monthly rate to another SL resident

"Sub-Leasing" land = paying an SL resident a down payment on the land and then paying a weekly or monthly rate (in Ls or $s) to them instead of LL.

Perhaps this wording would remove the stigma of the word "buying"

Yup I can live with those definitions. You win this time Penelope Pitstop.

Toy LaFollette

I eat paintchips

Join date: 11 Feb 2004

Posts: 2,359

10-12-2007 11:20

From: Mistyn Laval

Now thats the better word for it, even if we didnt use leasing for mainland land. I just know too many people that have been burnt by paying an amount for a private island only to have the 'landlord' change the cov and terms, raise rent, and refuse to let them sell again. Users that dont visit the forums or have past experience might just think they are getting land at a great rate (4 per sqm, which is still pretty close to mainland now) only to get a stick in the eye later

Ive seen it also many times, Mistyn. I saw it become a problem when LL allowed it to happen. I have, and always will, include a warning about "Sub-Leasing" in my land ownership and advanced land ownership classes.

_____________________

"So you see, my loyalty lies with Second Life, not with Linden Lab. Where I perceive the actions of Linden Lab to be in conflict with the best interests of Second Life, I side with Second Life."-Jacek

Walker Moore

Fоrum Unregular

Join date: 14 May 2006

Posts: 1,458

10-12-2007 11:31

From: Lindal Kidd

Once again, Mr. Shang proves himself my hero. Desmond, kudos to you for being someone who actually UNDERSTANDS how this little virtual economy we've got works...and how to make it work for Good instead of Evil.

I was thinking the same. I'd never have even considered the ramifications of allowing automatic land resales on an estate beyond the inevitable customer services headaches.

Desmond is one of those residents whose posts make me realise that I'm not as astute or prone to lateral thought as I once suspec.... nay, hoped.

_____________________

It's only a forum, no one dies.

Colette Meiji

Registered User

Join date: 25 Mar 2005

Posts: 15,556

10-12-2007 11:31

From: Toy LaFollette

If we must be technical then I would call them......

"Leasing" land = buying mainland that you own and pay LL tier on

"Renting" land or property = paying a weekly or monthly rate to another SL resident

"Sub-Leasing" land = paying an SL resident a down payment on the land and then paying a weekly or monthly rate (in Ls or $s) to them instead of LL.

Perhaps this wording would remove the stigma of the word "buying"

this is of course exactly what it is, and all its ever been. Them calling it what it is would make to much sense I guess.

"Owning land" in SL is simply a land lease that you have the option of selling to another person.

Desmond Shang

Guvnah of Caledon

Join date: 14 Mar 2005

Posts: 5,250

10-12-2007 11:43

From: Lindal Kidd

worships the prims

Don't do that!!!

There's an old expression: "everyone is a genius in a good economy" - the grid is still growing leaps and bounds, and none of us even *know* what a recession looks like yet.

Wait until membership *contracts* by fifteen percent and stays that way six months - then we'll truly know who has a clue.

Honestly I've been very, very lucky, and just plain old cautious. Had I continued to roll out sims full bore every coupla weeks, then yes I might be feeling the pinch now.

The only insight I'm using here is the same one a cat uses when it has sense enough to stay away from the nine year old with the baseball bat...

* * * * *

With regard to 'buying' and 'ownership'... I won't step into the argument, everyone has their opinion, but I personally don't call anything on a private estate 'buying'.

I don't know what the actual term would be, but I sure do know this: a private estate owner can:

a) reclaim your land with 1 click
b) strand all your stuff there
c) mute you
d) ban you from entire multi-region estates

...that doesn't sound quite like an ownership situation to me, from a resident's perspective.

I'm not in the business of pulling stuff like that. But if push came to shove, we all know who can do what. Also, even though I'm feeling rather healthy today I could drop dead or something. Or maybe I might take a stupid pill and run off with tier reserves (a financially moronic move, considering the income I'd lose and other possible consequences).

Those facts should be made really clear to anyone considering private estate land for anything.

_____________________

Steampunk Victorian, Well-Mannered Caledon!

Alan Bamboo

summer

Join date: 8 Oct 2006

Posts: 161

10-12-2007 12:02

From: Desmond Shang

I don't know what the actual term would be, but I sure do know this: a private estate owner can:

a) reclaim your land with 1 click
b) strand all your stuff there
c) mute you
d) ban you from entire multi-region estates

turn on and off, and on and off, the ability to join and divide the land you paid for without warning

Steve Mahfouz

Ecstasy Realty

Join date: 1 Oct 2005

Posts: 1,373

10-12-2007 12:20

From: Desmond Shang

Don't do that!!!

There's an old expression: "everyone is a genius in a good economy" - the grid is still growing leaps and bounds, and none of us even *know* what a recession looks like yet.

Wait until membership *contracts* by fifteen percent and stays that way six months - then we'll truly know who has a clue.

Honestly I've been very, very lucky, and just plain old cautious. Had I continued to roll out sims full bore every coupla weeks, then yes I might be feeling the pinch now.

The only insight I'm using here is the same one a cat uses when it has sense enough to stay away from the nine year old with the baseball bat...

* * * * *

With regard to 'buying' and 'ownership'... I won't step into the argument, everyone has their opinion, but I personally don't call anything on a private estate 'buying'.

I don't know what the actual term would be, but I sure do know this: a private estate owner can:

a) reclaim your land with 1 click
b) strand all your stuff there
c) mute you
d) ban you from entire multi-region estates

...that doesn't sound quite like an ownership situation to me, from a resident's perspective.

I'm not in the business of pulling stuff like that. But if push came to shove, we all know who can do what. Also, even though I'm feeling rather healthy today I could drop dead or something. Or maybe I might take a stupid pill and run off with tier reserves (a financially moronic move, considering the income I'd lose and other possible consequences).

Those facts should be made really clear to anyone considering private estate land for anything.

/agrees with Demond about private estates

on edit: one other advantage to leasing:

I am totally convinced that should I not have the $295 USD or $195 USD needed to pay for a sim on the payment date, boom, that sim would be gone in a heartbeat. I seriously doubt that LL would be slipshod about billing me for it and then reclaiming it if my money wasn't there. Now, if I picked up the phone and begged and pleaded and groveled, they MIGHT have mercy on me but to be brutally honest, I doubt it.

With me, if you are a good tenant, I'll cut you a break. Yes, I need the money but not as "badly" as LL does. Yes, I will pester you for it every 24 or 48 hours but as long as I think you're really really really going to pay me ASAP, I will cut you a break. Do I think LL would have that mercy on me ? Hell no. Not for one nanosecond. Therefore, I think I'm a nicer landlord than they are, because I am renting land too. They just call it "owning sims", which I think is a very misleading way to describe the harsh reality.

_____________________

http://slurl.com/secondlife/Ecstasy/128/129/31
Ecstasy: high quality residential living

Incanus Merlin

Not User Serviceable

Join date: 12 Apr 2007

Posts: 583

10-12-2007 12:40

From: Steve Mahfouz

/agrees with Demond about private estates

on edit: one other advantage to leasing:

I am totally convinced that should I not have the $295 USD or $195 USD needed to pay for a sim on the payment date, boom, that sim would be gone in a heartbeat. I seriously doubt that LL would be slipshod about billing me for it and then reclaiming it if my money wasn't there. Now, if I picked up the phone and begged and pleaded and groveled, they MIGHT have mercy on me but to be brutally honest, I doubt it.

With me, if you are a good tenant, I'll cut you a break. Yes, I need the money but not as "badly" as LL does. Yes, I will pester you for it every 24 or 48 hours but as long as I think you're really really really going to pay me ASAP, I will cut you a break. Do I think LL would have that mercy on me ? Hell no. Not for one nanosecond. Therefore, I think I'm a nicer landlord than they are, because I am renting land too. They just call it "owning sims", which I think is a very misleading way to describe the harsh reality.

Same here... I'll cut a tenant I know a break if they're late - I already allow 3 days overrun on rent arrears; but longer than that will depend on whether I know them and think they're coming back, rather than just away for a couple of inconvenient days.

But at the end of the day, tier has to be paid to LL. Or wave bye bye to that build you lavished so much care and attention on....

Inc

_____________________

"The wide world is all about you; you can fence yourself in, but you cannot for ever fence it out" - Gildor Inglorion, LOTR

Lelia Wakawaka

Registered User

Join date: 28 Jan 2006

Posts: 109

10-12-2007 14:40

From: Ceera Murakami

If I owned any land in Dreamland, those changes alone certainly would cause *me* to sell 100% of my land there.

I sold my land in Dreamland - had land in dreamland for over a year, but when they set up the new payment system, that required me to be inworld to make a payment ... I sold it ... now I'm mainland, where I can complain about my neighbors and put up 20 million foot walls to block out advertising ... but I don't have to worry about a land grab if I don't make it to a payment center ...

yikes! The map's half yellow!
Lincoln Lupino Hats & Slats Maker Join date: 3 Dec 2006 Posts: 122	10-12-2007 11:14 From: Ciaran Laval I own freehold land. Now the government can build on it, they need to pay me for it. They can of course put in a compulsory purchase order but it's my land. My friend owns leasehold land, when his lease expires he can lose everything. That's the LL model, you don't pay your lease, you lose it. They close down, they owe you nothing. It's leasehold. Actually under this theory..... we lease everything on SL.... our clothes, our textures, our scripts...... because if LL pulls the plug, its all gone..... with nada compensation. Its all virtual and its all subject to a user contract that essentially gives the user no rights. That being said, one has to have some faith to spend money here in SL. The major difference between estate land and mainland is that if you pay your tier on your mainland properties, you will have their continued use. On the estate side of things, there is the additional wrinkle that you could be booted for other reasons..... or no reason at all. To buy esate land, you must have faith in LL and also in your estate owner.
Ciaran Laval Mostly Harmless Join date: 11 Mar 2007 Posts: 7,951	10-12-2007 11:16 From: Mistyn Laval The MAIN difference.... Buying from LL is direct, payments go to them and short of violating the TOS or not making payments, the land isnt going anywhere and you can do what you want, sell when you want, chop it up, kill the land value around you etc. Agreed, mainland has less restrictions, some people like that. From: Mistyn Laval Renting from a resident is paying weekly or monthly, amounts of control are limited. Agreed, there are restrictions in place, some people like that. Neither point makes a different to the terminology of leasing however. From: Mistyn Laval Leasing from a resident is 'buying' their land which they retain full control of and can poof at any time as well as paying them the weekly or monthly amount, again controls are limited. Right, now you're into trust. This is a different issue. LL are the most trustworthy landlord here, pointing out to people that the private estate model is riskier, is a different issue. It's an issue that is fully justified and well worth raising. From: Mistyn Laval If I am tossing down a chunk of cash I would rather that LL was the landlord instead of another resident who can do whatever they want and I could just lose the money in the end. I dont want to put down a chunk of cash anyway, this is why I rent. Cant understand why you are so hell bent on making 'buying' the same in both respects, it clearly isnt and everyone who rents, buys or leases should be informed of this. Though, sadly, many are NOT and lose a lot in the end. So you prefer mainland, you trust LL. That's fine, but your whole argument against using a different term for private estate is to do with a lack of trust of private landlords. As I've said, these are points worth making but the basic point is, that if a private landlord allows you to resell then: Avatar "buys" land, Avatar keeps up tier payments, landlord is honest, Avatar "sells" land. This is the same principle as buying from LL. Avatar "buys" land from LL, Avatar keeps up membership/tier payments, LL are honest, Avatar "sells" land. Trying to say that those models are so very different is misleading. It's a question of trust and as I've said, the trust issue is well worth raising, as is the fact that many private landlords don't allow you to resell, in which case it's very different from the LL model.
Ciaran Laval Mostly Harmless Join date: 11 Mar 2007 Posts: 7,951	10-12-2007 11:19 From: Toy LaFollette If we must be technical then I would call them...... "Leasing" land = buying mainland that you own and pay LL tier on "Renting" land or property = paying a weekly or monthly rate to another SL resident "Sub-Leasing" land = paying an SL resident a down payment on the land and then paying a weekly or monthly rate (in Ls or $s) to them instead of LL. Perhaps this wording would remove the stigma of the word "buying" Yup I can live with those definitions. You win this time Penelope Pitstop.
Toy LaFollette I eat paintchips Join date: 11 Feb 2004 Posts: 2,359	10-12-2007 11:20 From: Mistyn Laval Now thats the better word for it, even if we didnt use leasing for mainland land. I just know too many people that have been burnt by paying an amount for a private island only to have the 'landlord' change the cov and terms, raise rent, and refuse to let them sell again. Users that dont visit the forums or have past experience might just think they are getting land at a great rate (4 per sqm, which is still pretty close to mainland now) only to get a stick in the eye later Ive seen it also many times, Mistyn. I saw it become a problem when LL allowed it to happen. I have, and always will, include a warning about "Sub-Leasing" in my land ownership and advanced land ownership classes. _____________________ "So you see, my loyalty lies with Second Life, not with Linden Lab. Where I perceive the actions of Linden Lab to be in conflict with the best interests of Second Life, I side with Second Life."-Jacek
Walker Moore Fоrum Unregular Join date: 14 May 2006 Posts: 1,458	10-12-2007 11:31 From: Lindal Kidd Once again, Mr. Shang proves himself my hero. Desmond, kudos to you for being someone who actually UNDERSTANDS how this little virtual economy we've got works...and how to make it work for Good instead of Evil. I was thinking the same. I'd never have even considered the ramifications of allowing automatic land resales on an estate beyond the inevitable customer services headaches. Desmond is one of those residents whose posts make me realise that I'm not as astute or prone to lateral thought as I once suspec.... nay, hoped. _____________________ It's only a forum, no one dies.
Colette Meiji Registered User Join date: 25 Mar 2005 Posts: 15,556	10-12-2007 11:31 From: Toy LaFollette If we must be technical then I would call them...... "Leasing" land = buying mainland that you own and pay LL tier on "Renting" land or property = paying a weekly or monthly rate to another SL resident "Sub-Leasing" land = paying an SL resident a down payment on the land and then paying a weekly or monthly rate (in Ls or $s) to them instead of LL. Perhaps this wording would remove the stigma of the word "buying" this is of course exactly what it is, and all its ever been. Them calling it what it is would make to much sense I guess. "Owning land" in SL is simply a land lease that you have the option of selling to another person.
Desmond Shang Guvnah of Caledon Join date: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 5,250	10-12-2007 11:43 From: Lindal Kidd worships the prims Don't do that!!! There's an old expression: "everyone is a genius in a good economy" - the grid is still growing leaps and bounds, and none of us even know what a recession looks like yet. Wait until membership contracts by fifteen percent and stays that way six months - then we'll truly know who has a clue. Honestly I've been very, very lucky, and just plain old cautious. Had I continued to roll out sims full bore every coupla weeks, then yes I might be feeling the pinch now. The only insight I'm using here is the same one a cat uses when it has sense enough to stay away from the nine year old with the baseball bat... * * * * * With regard to 'buying' and 'ownership'... I won't step into the argument, everyone has their opinion, but I personally don't call anything on a private estate 'buying'. I don't know what the actual term would be, but I sure do know this: a private estate owner can: a) reclaim your land with 1 click b) strand all your stuff there c) mute you d) ban you from entire multi-region estates ...that doesn't sound quite like an ownership situation to me, from a resident's perspective. I'm not in the business of pulling stuff like that. But if push came to shove, we all know who can do what. Also, even though I'm feeling rather healthy today I could drop dead or something. Or maybe I might take a stupid pill and run off with tier reserves (a financially moronic move, considering the income I'd lose and other possible consequences). Those facts should be made really clear to anyone considering private estate land for anything. _____________________ Steampunk Victorian, Well-Mannered Caledon!
Alan Bamboo summer Join date: 8 Oct 2006 Posts: 161	10-12-2007 12:02 From: Desmond Shang I don't know what the actual term would be, but I sure do know this: a private estate owner can: a) reclaim your land with 1 click b) strand all your stuff there c) mute you d) ban you from entire multi-region estates turn on and off, and on and off, the ability to join and divide the land you paid for without warning
Steve Mahfouz Ecstasy Realty Join date: 1 Oct 2005 Posts: 1,373	10-12-2007 12:20 From: Desmond Shang Don't do that!!! There's an old expression: "everyone is a genius in a good economy" - the grid is still growing leaps and bounds, and none of us even know what a recession looks like yet. Wait until membership contracts by fifteen percent and stays that way six months - then we'll truly know who has a clue. Honestly I've been very, very lucky, and just plain old cautious. Had I continued to roll out sims full bore every coupla weeks, then yes I might be feeling the pinch now. The only insight I'm using here is the same one a cat uses when it has sense enough to stay away from the nine year old with the baseball bat... * * * * * With regard to 'buying' and 'ownership'... I won't step into the argument, everyone has their opinion, but I personally don't call anything on a private estate 'buying'. I don't know what the actual term would be, but I sure do know this: a private estate owner can: a) reclaim your land with 1 click b) strand all your stuff there c) mute you d) ban you from entire multi-region estates ...that doesn't sound quite like an ownership situation to me, from a resident's perspective. I'm not in the business of pulling stuff like that. But if push came to shove, we all know who can do what. Also, even though I'm feeling rather healthy today I could drop dead or something. Or maybe I might take a stupid pill and run off with tier reserves (a financially moronic move, considering the income I'd lose and other possible consequences). Those facts should be made really clear to anyone considering private estate land for anything. /agrees with Demond about private estates on edit: one other advantage to leasing: I am totally convinced that should I not have the $295 USD or $195 USD needed to pay for a sim on the payment date, boom, that sim would be gone in a heartbeat. I seriously doubt that LL would be slipshod about billing me for it and then reclaiming it if my money wasn't there. Now, if I picked up the phone and begged and pleaded and groveled, they MIGHT have mercy on me but to be brutally honest, I doubt it. With me, if you are a good tenant, I'll cut you a break. Yes, I need the money but not as "badly" as LL does. Yes, I will pester you for it every 24 or 48 hours but as long as I think you're really really really going to pay me ASAP, I will cut you a break. Do I think LL would have that mercy on me ? Hell no. Not for one nanosecond. Therefore, I think I'm a nicer landlord than they are, because I am renting land too. They just call it "owning sims", which I think is a very misleading way to describe the harsh reality. _____________________ http://slurl.com/secondlife/Ecstasy/128/129/31 Ecstasy: high quality residential living
Incanus Merlin Not User Serviceable Join date: 12 Apr 2007 Posts: 583	10-12-2007 12:40 From: Steve Mahfouz /agrees with Demond about private estates on edit: one other advantage to leasing: I am totally convinced that should I not have the $295 USD or $195 USD needed to pay for a sim on the payment date, boom, that sim would be gone in a heartbeat. I seriously doubt that LL would be slipshod about billing me for it and then reclaiming it if my money wasn't there. Now, if I picked up the phone and begged and pleaded and groveled, they MIGHT have mercy on me but to be brutally honest, I doubt it. With me, if you are a good tenant, I'll cut you a break. Yes, I need the money but not as "badly" as LL does. Yes, I will pester you for it every 24 or 48 hours but as long as I think you're really really really going to pay me ASAP, I will cut you a break. Do I think LL would have that mercy on me ? Hell no. Not for one nanosecond. Therefore, I think I'm a nicer landlord than they are, because I am renting land too. They just call it "owning sims", which I think is a very misleading way to describe the harsh reality. Same here... I'll cut a tenant I know a break if they're late - I already allow 3 days overrun on rent arrears; but longer than that will depend on whether I know them and think they're coming back, rather than just away for a couple of inconvenient days. But at the end of the day, tier has to be paid to LL. Or wave bye bye to that build you lavished so much care and attention on.... Inc _____________________ "The wide world is all about you; you can fence yourself in, but you cannot for ever fence it out" - Gildor Inglorion, LOTR
Lelia Wakawaka Registered User Join date: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 109	10-12-2007 14:40 From: Ceera Murakami If I owned any land in Dreamland, those changes alone certainly would cause me to sell 100% of my land there. I sold my land in Dreamland - had land in dreamland for over a year, but when they set up the new payment system, that required me to be inworld to make a payment ... I sold it ... now I'm mainland, where I can complain about my neighbors and put up 20 million foot walls to block out advertising ... but I don't have to worry about a land grab if I don't make it to a payment center ...

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