Does Linden Labs enforce private estate covenants?

Since this is a weekly thread I would like to reccomend Tanglewood Estates as an A-list Private Estate for residents in SL.

Amity, you'll find people who have had only great experiences with estate land, and some who have had the opposite. What it comes down to is what everyone said in this thread. You never really own the plots of land you "purchase" from a sim owner. You are merely leasing it for your own use contigent that you abide by their rules and laws. Think of it as renting a room in someone's house. Only ONLY ever lease land on a private sim from someone you know well, or have heard good things from people who you trust their opinions. But know, that sh*t happens. People leave, people get messy finances, they get banned, they sell, they alter their covenants. There's nothing you can do about that. If you want absolutely no risk of contributory circumstances, then buy mainland or RENT/lease from a trusted estate owner.

There are many, many respectable land lords out there. Good luck

And people always wonder why I rent out only mainland...

Raymond....Since you took the liberty of pointing out a trustworty estate owner. I would like you to know that the one mentioned above is one of the larger culprits in the Land sales search exploit..... maybe time to revaluate your trusted sim owners list just a bit, I don't think the avatar listed above really deserves much more help as they are cheating all the legitimate sim owners out of buyers

shoot blake and you didnt include lil ole me? hmm I thought we're freinds

I had guessed that I would get no help from Linden Labs in this situation, but I figured I was being too cynical to just make that assumption, so I thought I would ask.

The problem is that Linden Labs sets up this "buying land" thing to make it analogous to buying land in real life, and I and others get trapped trapped into assuming that when Linden Labs uses language analogous to real life transactions, they mean for the Seciond Life transaction to work like a real world transaction.

And I feel stupid because I did do research before buying land. I had been reading this forum for months, I had been watching land sales, I had been talking to estate owners before buying, and I had been tracking who seemed to be established and long term, and who isn't. And despite taking a lot of time, doing a lot of research, and thinking before buying, I still made a bad mistake. It didn't occur to me that a covenant was not really a covenant.

In fact, I thought that the existance of a covenant was the one thing that justified "buying" land, when I would also have to pay the monthly tier. What I thought was worth paying for when "buying" the land was the assurances in the covenant.

So I threw away a chunk of money to learn that lesson.

Hopefully the changes to the "covenant" won't be too bad, but whatever they are, I've already thrown away the original purchase money, because I thought the covenant was really the thing of value for which I was paying.

This experience, though, does not make me think that buying mainland would be any better. It makes me thing that the Second Life concept of "buying" land is the equivalent of putting my real-life money into the fireplace. If I don't like the new "covenant" on my land, then I think I need to consider that, in the future, I should "rent" only.

Well you could sell the land , though?

Course you'd be sticking someone else with an unenforceable covenant.

I never really understood why they added covenant land sales in the first place. I imagine it was lobbying by Land Barons with a lot of private islands to help them compete with the mainland.

In a very limited way, though, that's correct. Well, the worth is determined by the terms of the "covenant" *plus* the likelihood of it being enforced and remaining in effect--and you did the right thing by researching both. What went wrong, I guess, is a little too much faith in that "likelihood" factor, stemming from the idea that there was some external enforcement of a covenant's terms. But what's "correct" is that the terms of a covenant establish the upper bounds on the property's worth. For example, a covenant that prevents resale makes it a straight rental, so reputable estates will charge L$1 for "purchase" of no-resale land. So, from the covenant, you can know in advance that the property won't have any resale value; unfortunately, you can't know for sure that it *will*, because the covenant might change, or any of the other pitfalls may occur.I guess I don't follow the reasoning here. There are plenty of reasons not to want to own Mainland, but it's not clear to me how any of them relate to this experience. On the Mainland, pretty much "what you see is what you get"--assuming everyone knows that neighbors can do exactly as they please, and that everything everywhere is subject to the grid collapsing when the baling wire comes undone. (Perhaps the value of the covenant in question was in restricting neighbor's builds or content, in which case, yeah, Mainland just doesn't do that. But it's not this experience that reveals that, so I'm thinking I'm missing something.)

Yes, I would intend to sell it if I don't want it anymore. I don't expect that I will get back what I paid for it. It sold for somewhat higher than what seemed to be average for private estate land- but it was worth it to me because of some of the things in the covenant. So I don't know what the damage is yet, and it may end up being none at all. But none of that is really under my control at this point.

Do you know what elements of the covenant are changing? You might be fretting too soon.

When the Lindens bought in the whole 'rental of island land with covenants' palatha, a lot of people bought islands with the hope of making a lot of money easily.

They not only then had to cover the tiers they were paying (by charging their residents rent, of course) but also to cover their initial investment when they purchased the island from LL.

Suddenly there was a LOT of island land for rent - there still is.

Many of these 'get rich' landlords didn't get rich as quick as they imagined they would.

Some pulled out of SL suddenly, leaving their residents without homes, and without refunds for the up-front payments they made to the landlord.

I am not saying ALL island landlords are like this, please note. Many are reputable people who offer their residents security, peace and a good economical option to buying mainland.

However, no matter what landlords who post on this forums will say, there were certainly many would-be landlords who were not professional about their rental, who were greedy and only interested in a quick profit or who are not in the least bothered about the implied rights or welfare of their residents.

Renting from a REPUTABLE landlord is the right option for many SL residents - please don't think I am anti-island rental.

However, it is time LL made it CLEAR to new residents that renting from another resident is NOT the same as getting mainland.

With mainland you will have it taken from you if your fail to pay your tier or are banned from SL.

With island rentals, you will have it taken from you for the above PLUS if the landlord leaves, fails to pay their tier, takes a dislike to you, chooses to use their land for something else or sells their island to someone who doesn't want you on it.

Choose a reputable landlord and the latter is as unlikely to happen as the first - choose a dodgy one and... well.... that is when we get thread like this, which sadly seems to be often.

Actually I'm not sure if there was any 'behind scenes stuff' re: a formal tab for a 'covenant', but I sort of doubt it.

We never had trouble before the 'covenant' tab, there was always a notecard giver or a sign or something that people could click on. Not really an issue.

Of course, the grid was smaller then and usually you had a better shot of knowing who you were dealing with personally.

For that matter, prior to private estate land 'sales' (yeah, horrifically misleading term, isn't it?) most of us simply deeded land to an individual's group.

Which was sort of silly, because when someone wanted to rent a patch of land you had to go into the arcane hooey of how to make a group, group deed the land to it, why you needed two 'alts', what 'alts' were, and all that eclectic bizzareness that was 'how things worked' at the time.

* * * * *

Incidentally, the key to covenants, and all things, is "in good faith" if you consider how fragile such a writeup is.

The assumptions are myriad. That a covenant even exists, implies that the grid will essentially still be here, an upgrade won't knock either land baron or resident off the grid, that pricing is relatively stable, that the LindeX won't implode, that the crisis du jour won't destroy the land baron's business model (or the resident's fun model).

When it's all said and done, look at motivations. If both parties 'win' by maintaining the status quo (i.e. land baron keeps land baroning, resident keeps renting) then probably things are going to be okay. If one or the other loses motivation, well, it's just a matter of time before you'll have problems.

In my case, there was nothing dishonest about the guy from whom I bought the land. He got hit by the sudden extra VAT-tax-justified charges, and couldn't afford to be a landlord anymore. It's the guy to whom he sold the estate who is changing the "covenant," and the original landlord doesn't have any control over that.

Let's update this fun story.

When I bought this land, I bought three adjoining parcels. They actually spanned over two connected regions. I have 6000 m on two parcels in Region A, right beside 2000 m in Region B.

When I got the IM about the land being sold, I probably should have paid a bit more attention. It anncouned that the sender had bought Region B, and perhaps I wasn't paying as careful attention as I should, because I assumed that new estate owner was buying the whole operation from the old estate owner.

Wrong. Region A and Region B have been sold to two separate different people. The buyer of Region B kindly sent me a note; the buyer of Region A did not.

My tier payments are due the 16th of the month. I paid all tier for all 8000 m to old owner's tier-payment box; at the time, all the land was still under his estate ownership in the land details section. I had not heard any follow up from new estate owner who had IMed me about what changes if any were coming, so I decided that in the interim, I should make sure my tier was paid on time, and I assumed that any accounting would be settled up between old estate owner and new estate owner.

So imagine my surprise today, when I log on, and half the continent on which I have been living is suddenly gone. Instead of the land normally next to my house, just the ocean demarking nothing. And this included 1/4 of my land suddenly missing.

So I got out the landmark I had to the piece of my land in Region B, teleported there, and confirmed that, indeed, my adjoining land was no longer adjoining.

While I was there, I read the new covenant. The land restrictions that I liked had been relaxed. Tier payments were increased. Oh, and tier would be due on the 16th of the month (meaning today), and if I had already paid the old estate owner, it was my responsibility to get a refund from the old estate owner.

So I teleported back to my land in Region A. Out of curiousity, I did the "About Land" thing. Guess what, Region A is now the estate of someone I had never heard of before. I checked the covenant, and the covenant was just wiped and replaced with the statement to the effect of there was no covenant since the land had transferred ownership.

So, this is what has become of my initial purchase of approximately $200.00 US, plus about the $50 US that I paid in tier a couple of days ago is now in a void, so I get to track that down. Oh the joy of it all.

Thanks for everyone who assured that it may not be so bad. You meant well.

Off to spend a bunch of time figuring out what the status of my land is, where my money is, and figuring out what if anything I can salvage.

If that's your idea of a fun story, may I suggest you watch a triple bill tonight of Midnight Express, Requiem For A Dream and Natural Born Killers.

Sorry to hear the nightmare is getting more nightmarish.

I'll add a few more things, after talking with neighbors who were a surprised as I was about what was once a continent now split into a bunch of small island (so I wasn't the last to know). I had guessed that the former owner was ruined by the VAT-tax-charges, but realize now that was a flimsy assumption and I have no information to substantiate that guess. I had also stated that I felt the original estate owner, from whom I bought the land, had generally tried to be honest and competent, though really all I can say is that I had no problems with him until the estate was sold, and even though I hadn't previously heard of any problems concerning the guy, it's true also that I never really talked to my neighbors either so I just probably never had enough information to form an opinion one way or another about the qualities of the former estate owner.

So to tally it all up, I really wasn't as careful as I thought I was, though on the other hand I'm not the only one getting burned. What that says about my land-buying skills, or about land generally in Second Life, I don't know.

I am so sorry to hear that.

One thing that is not a hard and fast rule, but a trend I noticed: If the estate owner has more than one sim and keeps adding them, that often means they are profitable and in it for the long hall. Kandee Herrey, Steve M., Stephen Z., Desmond, Sarah, Darien, Wildefire... All these estate owners own multiple sims and have stellar reps.

(I only have one mainland rental sim, so steer clear!)

I have a sim and a half, does that count??

I finally sold my 4096 meter land on an estate island the other day. I sold it at a huge loss from my original purchase price (live and learn). But the good news is that I am no longer paying tiers for this land and this desire to sell all started once I moved to a friends new estate island as a renter and I wanted to avoid paying double tiers (I will be happier on my friends island).

But ...

1) The person who bought my land immediately put it up for sale without establishing their own tier payments with the estate owner. So I received an email the other night from the estate owner telling me that this person violated the estate covenant when they resold the land and the estate owner reclaimed the land. I did not ask what happened to the 3rd person who bought the land. But it's possible they got burned. I don't know.

2) Not far from my old land that was sold, a new resident of the estate was violating the estate covenant by building a commercial business on this residential only estate island and I noticed the estate owner also reclaimed that land as well.

In case #2 the new land owner violated the covenant and I don't have as much sympathy for them. But in case #1 it is possible that the person who bought off of the person who bought off of me got burned. So here are more cases that people need to be aware of when it comes to estate island covenants.

I continue to own my small 512 meter plot on a new mainland sim (might as well put that premie membership to use), but I am done owning estate land. If you find me living on an estate island (like I do on my friends sim) it is only as a renter. It's just not worth it. Unless you are a Linden, none of us owns anything here. We're all renters.

I finally sold my 4096 meter land on an estate island the other day. I sold it at a huge loss from my original purchase price (live and learn). But the good news is that I am no longer paying tiers for this land and this desire to sell all started once I moved to a friends new estate island as a renter and I wanted to avoid paying double tiers (I will be happier on my friends island).

But ...

1) The person who bought my land immediately put it up for sale without establishing their own tier payments with the estate owner. So I received an email the other night from the estate owner telling me that this person violated the estate covenant when they resold the land and the estate owner reclaimed the land. I did not ask what happened to the 3rd person who bought the land. But it's possible they got burned. I don't know.

2) Not far from my old land that was sold, a new resident of the estate was violating the estate covenant by building a commercial business on this residential only estate island and I noticed the estate owner also reclaimed that land as well.

In case #2 the new land owner violated the covenant and I don't have as much sympathy for them. But in case #1 it is possible that the person who bought off of the person who bought off of me got burned. So here are more cases that people need to be aware of when it comes to estate island covenants.

I continue to own my small 512 meter plot on a new mainland sim (might as well put that premie membership to use), but I am done owning estate land. If you find me living on an estate island (like I do on my friends sim) it is only as a renter. It's just not worth it. Unless you are a Linden, none of us owns anything here. We're all renters.

You've got me beat! I would certainly recommend you, along with the other folks I'm always pimping.

I have 5 class 5 sims.. Please put me on your weekly Top 10 list !!
HaHa.. Actualy i am full. But add me anyways..Also big shout out to my friend Jackson Rickenbacker who has 10 sims and should be on the A-List also!!

Ooh, I've been promoted Cheers Ray! (although right now, I'm totally full!)

I'm actually considering starting to make my accounts public. Beginning with my next billing date, I'm going to start tracking everything much more accurately anyway - there's no reason why I couldn't publish a cut down version of that somewhere, if i were a listed company it would be ethical of me to do that anyway. I'll just do it as part of my regular reporting run.

I just have to get my head around reporting the unused portions of peoples rents as Liabilities, gradually moving them into assets as the rental period passes by.

Congrats on being full. There are many estate owners who deserve to be on some sort of list. My list is of people I've had many dealings with personally. I only recommend folks I would stake my whole reputation on, and for me to do that, I have to know you.

Feel free to start your own list. I am just one guy. My opinion is just that--one avatar's opinion.