Shoot on sight

Jack,
I have never had a crash after being shot or pushed. I have been knocked 3 Sims away and I have been sent "Home" and had to TP back, but never crashed.
If I had crashed from it, I would have been less tolerant about it too.

But you are missing my point (and you sound like you think I support the griefers).

My point is, LL is reluctant/slow to ban griefers. But LL rules prevent citizens from taking action on their own.

It takes resources that LL does not have to deal with griefers quickly enough to suit most people.

You cite all the people supposedly making "RL livings". Well, RL has taxes to pay for the police, courts and prisons.

So let's hire 10 User Liaisons - oh, wait there are three eight hour periods okay, 30 User Liaisons. Oh, wait there are weekends. Okay, 35 User Liaisons. They can rotate shifts and make about 8 online at any one time. That's about 1 per 900-1,000 residents (logged-on).

Let's assume LL already has 10 on staff (Budgeted). There is still a need for 25 more. User Liaisons (IT) get about $75,000 a year in the San Francisco area. (Not counting FICA, employee matching, medical insurance, working space, desks, computers, software, pencils and hippos. But let's keep it at a simple, unrealistically cheap $75,000) $75,000 times 25 is $1,875,000 a year. (A lot of 10¢ textures)

We have 3,100 residents make an average Net of $20,000 (Business Week) ($62,000,000 a year). So a tax of about 3.2% would pay for the extra manpower.
(But now we need tax-collectors.)


My point here is, if you want to make RL profits you have to expect to pay RL money to do so. If you are opposed to taxes, tell LL that we deserve the right to protect ourselves without breaking a TOS.


I mean, if I push or shoot a griefer I haven't done HIM any real harm. Unless you want to argue that they are having their enjoyment or livlihoods interrupted. (Maybe they were hired by a competitor... They are just trying to earn a living, by shooting people(?))

(I guess LL and all of us getting an SL/RL lesson in the problems with undocumented aliens.... )

Well, I actually have wound up having to restart after being orbited in the past, so I'm pretty intolerant of it myself. I know that you're not in favor of the griefers, but I see far to much sentiment from certain segments of the population toward saying, "It's just a game, they're not real guns, no harm done."

I really object to that sentiment myself. I feel tht it comes froma mindset that "It's just a game," which, if SL *was* just a game, would be fine. But LL has lured people into here saying that it's *not* just a game.

As to shooting back...I have a strong suspicion that LL's laxness with their new accounts will see some residents getting "anti-griefing" accounts of their own that they can use to deal with the more persistant griefers. Which IMO, is probably a bad thing overall. I'd much prefer that people shooting each other be left for damage enabled areas where people have made it clear that they *want* to shoot and be shot, and leave the rest of us out of it.

Now, one thing that you seem to be saying is a point that I find very valid, and something that LL seems to have totally missed.

The fact is that in any enviroment where people interact, there are going to be conflicts between those people. Most importantly, in any setting where people interact, there are going to be those that *deliberately* set out to cause conflicts and to break and disrupt any and all functions that that enviroment has been set up for. This is human nature, and it's inevitable.

LL doesn't want to play "police" in SL, but in reality police are needed. The fact is that in an enviroment the size of SL there are going to be people who are there *just* to disrupt things, just as in RL, and LL *needs* to have a couple of people who are in world at all times, ready to show up at any time to enforce the TOS, to stop griefing *as it's happening*. Esentially to *be* the police, because where large numbers of people interact, the need for police is unavoidable.

There are things that LL could do (Like giving us better control over being pushed on an avatar level.) that would take down the current griefing levels enormously. But inevitibly, police are going to be needed. Frankly, I don't care how LL pays for it. But IMNSHO if they've left that need and that cost out of their business calculations, then their model is flawed and they need to revisit it.

They also *highly* need to revisit the attitude that shooting people who don't want to be shot, or harassing them...not letting people mind their own business...is "all in good fun", and realize that the people who enjoy harassing others this way are *not* a benifit to their business but rather a significant burden that in fact rish breaking their product and that actively working to get rid of them is in fact a *benefit* to their business.

Right now, people have no choice. But from what I'm seeing now, if people *did* have one, the things that LL is currently doing would be driving the most valuable users, the ones who are creating content, the ones who are paying for land and creating attractions...the ones that actually keep the money coming in...would currently be leaving in droves.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Boy, you guys have it easy.

Not only have I been sent 34,000 meters away from my property, I am also being shot at by the military base which is right next to me.
Saturday night I was out in my neighbors yard chatting with her and another neighbor when the next thing I know, I'm being warped to a sim 34,000 meters away. I TPed home and joined my neighbors, but was pissed. She took a picture as I was being blown away and I still have it as proof.
I left my friends and went over to border with the military base next door to ask which one of them did that and they started shooting at me.
I started taking down names and told them to cut it out or I was going to report them and they appeared to stop. They told me that they were fighting griefers and apologized...until I went back over to my neighbors. Then they started shooting at all of us. We also had bombs of some sort launched at us but we had scripts turned off and they landed harmlessly.
Needless to say, we all filed abuse reports and took pictures.

The next day, Sunday, I rezzed in world and started surveying mine and my neighbors property and the soldiers on the base started shooting at me again. I took down their names again and reported again. and then left the area.

Monday, I rezzed in world to a full blown battle between somebody. There was smoke billowing thorugh the floor of my upstairs so I went down into my bedroom and there was a missile lodged in my ceiling...smoking away.
Also , out in my yard I found several more unexploded bombs owned by a Jihad terrorist group...nice.

I sent off some IM s to the owner of the missile and he denied doing .....hello...you're the owner. I spotted him on the military base and questioned him again and he started shooting me.
Once again,.....another abuse report.

So this is great...I don't think Linden Labs is doing anything about these guys direspecting me or my land...or about the terrorist group that is attacking. I don't know if anything will be done.

btw, most of the names that I jotted down are all either new avatars or have no payment on file.

great...thanks Linden Labs......when I retaliate and attack the people shooting at me, I bet I get banned won't I?

Sure I can keep scripts turned off but there goes any fun that I can have on my land.

I guess I have to sell my land that I just purchased a month ago. Nice game this Second Life....maybe I should go back to playing my First Person Shooter games...at least I can have some justice.

Update:


They're GONE!!

I rezzed in world yesterday afternoon and the entire base was gone! The land is barren again.

Perhaps I have the Lindens to thank for this? I don't know....but I do know that that I can live on my land in peace again...unless the soldiers have a grudge against me...we'll see I guess

How much for the mini-gun?

This is technically a TOS violation on safeland, but plant a autoturret on your land, put their names in it, and they will be killed/orbited before they can do much. Unless its on a sim border, it will engage them outside your parcel area and insure they dont come within 92m of you. It may be messy at times, but it WILL keep them away, and if they get a new alt, they attack you once, and you add the name to the autoturret.

Greifers like the challenge of fighting people who claim to be fighting back, like people reporting, or shooting. They wont like getting repeated creamed by a machine they cannot hurt.

There are mainland sims that proclaim they are role playing areas. One I distinctly recall is a BDSM sim on the mainland. And it is not even the entire sim, just a portion of it.

They simply have you read a note when you arrive which tells you that by entering the area you agree to role playing too.

Given that such places are allowed to exist on the mainland (not on a private island), why can't I "role play" a vigilante that orbits, shoots, kills, captures or otherwise protects herself AFTER she has been attacked by an individual?

That should not be a violation of TOS anymore than "required" BDSM role playing.

Someone mentioned giving residents the right to switch off the push effects. Now this is a great idea and one wonders why LL have not implemented it especially as it is one of the main causes of grief. Unless... there's an ulterior motive. Maybe it's a deliberate attempt to drive things forward and to force defensive creativity from residents.

Many, many technological advances have arisen from conflict. The human capacity for destructive & defensive ingenuity is incredible. Sadly, the destructive elements always seem to be one step ahead. I.e. A gun script is developed followed by a shield, a shield breaker and so on..

But having said that, it doesn't really address the issue for the majority of us. Sure, we can arm ourselves with all manner of defensive devices, but why should we? When all we want to do is to put a tick in a box to say that "I'd like to opt out of being griefed thank you very much".

Now that we can turn off llPushObject, the grefiers have to use physical objects to push people.

I have been useing a sripted scanner for some time now.

It teleports them home and then adds them to the ban list.

You can get a free open source copy at Charissa (250, 165, 125) It's right next to the money tree.

As for the TOS. I feel it's ok as long as the scanner only scans inside the building.

I have had problems with people rezing pets, scooters, bikes, ect inside the building and geting baned, however it's a lot easier to deal with that.

As an alternative, why not have a pvp system whereby your natural pvp status is OFF by default. As soon as you take a hostile action against another Av using a damage or push script for example, it is activated and remains activated for a set amount of time. This could be indicated by nametags appearing in red as well as on the minimap to warn others that the Av is pvp active.

And while a person is pvp active they should be considered to be 'in consent' of pvp and unable to AR you when you try to defend yourself, should you choose to take up arms. This could perhaps reduce the chances the victim becoming the villan as it were.

It would probably throw up as many complications as it solves, but it was just a thought.

Hmm.

Secondlife is an 3D online chatting program. Its NOT an RPG; its not a first-person shooter, either.

The biggest attraction of SL is that there are no limitations. You can join and be anything you want; you have a nearly infinite ability to modify your personal appearance and surroundings. You're only limited by your imagination, your modeling prowess, and your grasp of the scripting system.

(And the technical aspects of the program itself. But thats unavoidable, and most of the Linden's jobs are broadening those limitations.)


That said, Secondlife is not a game. At least not in the traditional sense - what makes games "games" is the fact that they have rules. Not only are you gifted with the ability to DO things, but you're also limited by what the game explicitly allows you to do. There are often cheats, and ways around this, but I'll get to that later . . .

Its the rules that make games unique, and give meaning to the act of aquiring powerful weapons, or abilities, or whatnot. In Secondlife, intricate and interesting items are the result of hours of painstaking modeling or scripting; a builder needs to earn what he or she produces. Items can then be bought with money thats either earned through the selling of one's own creations, or by the sacrifice of actual, real-life money - money that was earned through time spent at a job.

Granted, this is a vast oversimplification of the SL economy, but the point is, to get anything particularly useful, or well crafted, or powerful, one needs to spend time earning it.

Combat, however, is just the result of a simple script attatched to a gun. The gun can be however powerful the creator wants, and can push its victim whatever distance he wants; someone can create uber weapons without any particular investment of time or effort.

. . .

My proposal: scrap combat as-is, and replace it with an actual thought out PVP system. Yes, it occurs to me that this is not an easy thing to do, and would dramaticly reshape the landscape of SL . . . and I generally doubt that the Lindens are going to change their world based on the suggestion of a relative newcomer.

But here it is.

Damage, push/warp, and hold scripts are scrapped, and are replaced by a simple attack script. Basically, either something is a weapon, or its not. There's no possibility of having generic items that may or may not hurt someone.

Secondly, sims would be either PVP enabled or PVP disabled. You wouldn't be able to toggle this for individual parcels - battle would be confided to specific regions.

These regions would be mostly unmonitered; there'd of course be instances of armies camping at the enterances, shooting people en masse as they enter . . . but it'd be understood that anyone entering such a region would be fair game for anyone else there. Campers would need to be driven out by another organized force.

Just like the wars people seem to want to enjoy.

Oh, and the new "weapon" scripts? They'd be tied to an experience system, where you get experience from killing people in the battlegrounds, and as a result get access to more powerful weapon capabilities. I'm not sure exactly how this'd work, but it'd be a function of the generic "Weapon" script.

Experience would be another modifier to your character, like the "Behavior, Appearance, Building, Given" stats that exist already. One would get more experience for killing more powerful opponents, and less if more than one character ganged up on a single opponent. This last bit should help discourage large groups from rampaging around the battlegrounds.

. . .

So you'd have a reward-based combat system, making combat interesting for those of us who WANT to be fighters; and you'd keep it partioned off from the rest of the world, to make sure that those who don't are't victimized by people seeking SOMEONE to shoot.

Complaints to the Lindens would probably be much, much less frequent . . . people will always do stupid things, but at least they'll have to do it indirectly, instead of just attacking people. People would be able to live their lives in (relative) peace, and people who want to fight will now have a reason for doing so.

. . .

Granted, this'd be a big change to SL, and its not likely to happen. But I can dream.

its not an rpg or game - to you.

To me its the ultimate open ended rpg.

Your solution wouldn't work with the thousands of USER CREATED scripts either.

Push also isn't only used in weapons something you seem to have failed to realize.

Firstly: no, Secondlife is NOT an open-ended RPG.

I repeat: RPG systems have rules. Secondlife does not. There is no experience gain, no limitation on weapon power, no character progression. While Secondlife may be a Roleplaying ENVIRONMENT, it is NOT an RPG.

Unless someone writes an actual combat system for it. Which was my proposal.

Secondly: Yes, you can't ban all push scripts. They're used in other things. However, if you impliment an actual combat system, it'd give legitament combat-oriented characters something to do - you wouldn't have the current issue of distinguishing "Military" type players from griefers.

Which should help the Lindens immeasurably; I get the impression that they're slow to ban people now because they don't want to be punishing legitamently martial players.

And yes, there are already innumerable created scripts that serve as weaponry floating around SL. Yes, this would be a huge change in the way the world runs, and I don't expect it to happen.

And yes, this system wouldn't destroy the existing scripts that people use to improvise weaponry; repulse scripts, pushes, and whatnot. But what I'm hoping is that such a system would give combat-oriented players something to do - which would keep them out of the hair of the rest of the population. The PVP system would give rewards, which should encourage people to abandon current weapon designs in favor of the new system.

In time, there would be a thicker, more defined line between fighters and griefers. And hopefully, some of the griefers would be attracted to the battlegrounds, looking for people to kill who pose something of a challenge; the ones who still go around the mainland screwing with people would be more easly identified and dealt with.

This is all mostly just conjecture; the system itself would need a lot of thought, and work, and there'd definately be issues of where to place the battlegrounds, or what current military bases would do with their land, ect.

As a solution goes, its a pretty radical one, and not particularly elegant. But its an idea.

Agreed perhaps time to adopt this approach

The Universal Law

The purpose of human life is to prosper & live happily. The function of society is to guarantee those conditions that allow all individuals to fullfill their purpose. Those conditions can be garanteed through a constitution:

Article 1: No person, group of persons, or government may initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against any individual's self or property.

Article 2: Force may be morally & legally used only in defense against those that violate Article 1.

Article 3: No exceptions shall ever exist to Articles 1 & 2.

Mark Hamilton (The Neo-Tech World) 2002

Live life with "DTC": Discipline, Thourght & Control

Well, at least I'm not the only one experiencing this. Just talked to a Laison today who also said retaliation would be a bad idea :/ .

How about a discipline system accessible only to established residents, at the discretion of the residents? ( 'x' number of hours,
payment info on file and verified, whatever.....) On a first offense, the offender gets a 'time out' in an area on Linden land, and gets the choice to re-read the TOS regarding PvP abuse or take a 30 day suspension. If they decide to become educated, they get to go back to the grid only if they do a digital sig agreeing to behave. Their account gets marked accordingly-doesn't have to show in world. Next offense gets 30 days to cool off, unless they've already been there. The next step is expulsion. Give them the chance to protest at any point in the process, with the understanding that if they're found in the wrong, they go to the next level immediately. Abuse reports would still need to be filed to provide the paper trail. Griefers would have to deal with the knowledge that the person they're messing with could take them out with a click of the pie menu.

Use a similar system for the established residents to keep us honest: first phony sanction- 30day suspension, 2nd- you're out, with the same chance to appeal to LL.

If LL wants this world to grow, and even start attracting "big money" this *has* to be dealt with asap. Their choices are : more personel to police the grid(good luck!), more personel to process ARs(see previous), open vigilantism(lord, I've been soooo tempted), or a system like the above where the residents help keep things under control.

Frankly, I'm getting fed up with the griefers, and probably wouldn't have bothered to go paid, or even come back, if it was this bad back in Oct when I joined. I do several ARs on the average day. The offenders are still in world, and I never see a hint of their actions on the blotter. The vast majority of folks in world are really great, but the few idiots can really make for an unpleasant experience, and their numbers are increasing in my opinion. I shouldn't have to choose between leaving a sim voluntarily or getting blown out by some twit. If they really wanted a rough and tumble kind of experience, they'd goto Rausch or Jesse. The people who make trouble aren't here for any other reason, and they need to be removed as quickly as possible for the sake of the larger community. In RL, I can match a bully level-for-level, in SL , I risk a TOS violation when I stand up for my rights.

I say , let the community take a more active role in keeping these players in line.

Maybe we need to band together somehow.

Start with a rally or sim to sim protest march. Ask everyone we meet to march with us to protest griefers. LL would see the lag move from one sim to the next.

Then we could end it all with logging off for 24-48 hours in protest.

LL would likely wet themselves over the thought that we might possibly find something else to do RL that we enjoy better than SL.

In my first week of life, I was griefed 4 times. In week two I was adding people to my ignore list. I've been playing online games for 9 years so the griefing didn't come as any real surprise to me but for many new players this may be quite the turn off which would also inhibit the number of people making the leap from a basic account to a premium one. On this basis alone, you would think it would be more of a priority to ensure that the people who have no desire to participate (willinging or unwillingly) in any form of combat would be protected from those who seem to think it's open season on all residents.

I've seen some very good suggestions and points raised and I'm sure that correcting the situation to everyone's satisfaction would be difficult at best but certainly something has to be done about the few that are ruining the game experience for the peace-loving folk.

Linden Labs /isn't/ a government except by default. What they are doing is not against the ToS until and unless they push/slander/libel/break PG. Selling freebies on vacant land held by other people is a perfectly viable option. Welcome to Second Life! The world's largest realised Temporary Autonomous Zone.

Show me where the rule is that role-playing games must have rules - much less rules for combat.

An improvised stage production is a role playing game. Don't pigeonhole a versatile notion.

Because Unless otherwise Stated Using Weapons In Non Combat Sims Unless otherwise stated Is Against the TOS. That is why they made combat Area's. Something Like Samurai Island were it is consentual is a different story but it should BE consentual. I think residents themselves need the option to be pushed or not as well not just a land option but an option for each person.

Something needs to be done - The game THERE has an option somewhat like the 'check box' you all are talking about - the users are able to put their shield on and it protects them from being shot and run over by various vehicles.. Something like that would be ideal for SL residents, built into the game so that it *can't* be broken.

I dont think it needs to be a check box just mabye something in profile or options or a menu option.

Yeah... It's really about time people grew up and began using games [and SL] for
something else.

Violence in videogames was done cause it was simple, it's a hangover from the old
8-bit days. fire at a sprite, hit another and it explodes.

Sadly, every console game that comes out seems to be cars, shooting stuff or
a couple of asians kicking the crap out of each other.

To quote Hawkeye on M*A*S*H "We want something else! We want something else!"

Wolfie!

If someone is shooting at others, they are consenting to "combat play".. this consent means anything you decide to do is fair game. Both players now have the freedom to beat each others Avatars senseless. Use a superpush weapon, use a trap... all fair gameplay.

Unless I do not understand the english language as well as I think I do, considering the 50 years I have spent practicing it, that *is* what the TOS means in light of the fact that *they*, the griefers, are allowed to shoot others.

Just don't swear at them in a PG SIM

Theres no need to address one single thing your wrote after reading that.


Your problems lie with your own lack of control, the Lindens will never respond to filed complaints when the fix lays in that you have control over yourself, your land, and your lands settings.



This is simular to someone saying and filing complaints that - "someone is sending me unwanted messages all the time" and asking the lindens to step in and punish them, in effect, griefing on your own part, when you can simply click MUTE, the tools are there use them.



you have enabled the problem by neglecting the tools you have at hand to solve it


You cannot walk outside and expect the Goverment to respond to your complaints about fixing the problem of you getting wet out in the rain, when you yourself have neglected to use or learn about the umbrella you have.


I know this is a hard angle to swallow, but its the one the lindens take im sure, they cant hold hands and walk everyone through everything because people dont learn and choose to neglect the tools at hand they have, not to mention island owners allowing damage so people can "die", "build" etc....then turning around and ranting about people doing just what they have allowed in the settings they control.