No Real Need for Government

What's missing in your head that causes you to repeatedly flog this horse in the forums despite your inability to get a couple dozen people organized in-game? My guess: inability to put evidence in front of vainglorious ideals.

Exactly. There are two proper roles for government: fair enforcement of a consistent set of known laws, and protection of the group from external threats. There are no external threats in SL, so only the first is operative.

The TOS are the one and only enforced legal code in SL. They are not a truly complete set of laws, since there are no real property rights, and without property rights there are no other rights. No group in SL could create a set of laws inconsistent with the TOS, so any player created government is more in the nature of a municipal government using delegated powers from a higher level of government.

As such, only a local form of government would make sense - any SL wide government would be redundant and likely in conflict with the true government of SL.

What a positively logical, concise, and brilliant post this is. I award you the much-coveted rainbow quote!

~Ulrika~

then who would put up the streetlights, pave the streets, maintain your sewers, subsidize power lines, develop the internet, go to the moon, fund medical research, and otherwise make your life comfortable?

uh... ll works to keep external threats out - spam, dos, credit card fraud, banned residents, among a few.

government is about the allocation of resources. law enforcement and protection are there to keep the system of allocation running.

Artemis Fate:

This is an important point, Artemis. We can try right now to prevent a certain amount of future trouble by not building up any SL-wide institutions with levers of power for some individual or group to use against the rest of us.

Government proponents might say don't worry, we're not proposing any institutions with SL-wide scope -- it's just local opt-in governance -- totally harmless. But stop and imagine the following scenario: some new empire-builder with financial clout joins SL, and sets about to replicate a local governance institution in every sim. Suddenly the harmless local governance idea is being gamed, propagated into a monoculture -- a suffocating blanket across SL.

Government proponents might argue that opt-in prevents this outcome. I disagree. Opt-in is necessary, but not sufficient. It does not prevent all ways in which a local governance idea could be gamed

During certain periods of history in RL whole societies have entered dark times due to individual citizens each making decisions that compromise the wellbeing of the community as a whole. The individual citizen may be motivated by one or more of the following: fear, anger or financial gain. In SL these are likely to be tied to land.

YES!

You are absolutely right that the greatest threat to our freedom is from an empire builder with financial clout, whose power is bound to land. However, that person is not a member of the progovernment movement. She's someone in a different class altogether. Understand?

~Ulrika~

Ulrika, do you spend all your time just reading the forums and scrapping with people? I'm not trying to flame you or anything... it's just that your name is everywhere. Maybe you should go outside and get some sun or something.

I know I plan to. I need to unplug like you read about...

I'm home sick as a can be today. *sniffle* I'm actually going to go take a nap right now.

When I get back though, ooh, you're gonna get it!

~Ulrika~

The thread is about government in SL, but your examples are from RL. Nevertheless, there are some important points to make in response.

The first three of your points, relating to infrastructure, don't actually require government. The costs of each must be covered in some way, and it can be done either inefficiently through government monopoly, or efficiently through private enterprise. Having worked at government organizations a few summers while paying for university, I saw many examples of such inefficiency.

Applied medical research is largely privately funded. There is government funded scientific and medical research, but this is not the only way it can be or has been done.

Going to the moon is probably the example that most disproves your point. It was done for political reasons in response to an external threat. There was no long-lasting commercial space infrastructure created, and as a result the space program has limped from cutback to cutback, with more money being spent on studies to satisfy political directives than actually getting into space.

It is from the economic choices I freely make that my life becomes more comfortable. It is not from the wasteful misappropriation of tax dollars to pet causes.

the thread is about government. one of the models of government is from first life. sl can be informed by what has been done in the past. the issues that affect fl government are much the same ones that affect sl government.

true, but government did these things. you're presenting a theory about who would have done it if government hadn't, is just that a theory. empirical evidence trumps hypotheticals. government did those things.

btw, with ll as a governing body that adminsters sl, there would be no sl. sl is infrastrcture.

the theoretical research from which applied research is derived is mostly funded by governments. without the theoretical research there would be no applied research.

consider how you would make a phone call without those communication satellites in orbit. that is a space infrastructure.

no one lives in isolation. without government action many would not have the choices to make in the first place.

without arpa, there would have been no internet. without an internet, there would be no sl for you to choice to come to or not.

by no means am i saying that government is perfect, or even necessarily good. but it does provide some benefits beyond protection and law enforcement.

government has done these things. the evidence is there. now one can argue whether or not government should have done those things, but that's not exactly the question. government also provides some efficiencies in some areas.

Empirical evidence trumps theoretical, you say?

I see ample evidence that SL runs just fine without "government" every time I log in.

I enjoy ungoverned events.

I enjoy ungoverned builds.

I enjoy ungoverned friends.

I enjoy making clothes and wearing them without government butting in and saying "You can't do that."

I'm equally sure I will at some point enjoy my own parcel of virtual land, and building on it my own ungoverned structure, and chatting on it with my ungoverned neighbors.

Whether or not some form of "government" can bring some improvements to select areas of SL is entirely moot to those who simply don't want it -- and neither the starter of this thread, nor I, nor apparently dozens others (at least) want government in any form in SL.

If you want to make "converts" to the "cause of government in SL" I strongly and most very sincerely suggest you refrain in your public ego-buffing. I say this openly and with as little prejudice as can be mustered: it serves little, if any, purpose. It runs counter to your intentions, antagonising those who might possibly be swayed to your "side." Example is your most effective argument -- not words touting an example in forums, but actual example in SL itself. And if you want to discuss the theory behind your practice, there's a whole Internet for you to use, besides channels within the game itself.

how do you deal with griefers?
how do you advertise events?
who made the tools you are using to build? what are the channels for telling ll when there are problems? why should they even listen?
clothes, builds, textures, animations, etc would all be public property when transferred anytime unless ll had build the infrastructure for buy/sell, mod, transfer.

your choices exist, the choices you may choose among, because there is an infrastructure.

that isn't what i'm trying to do.

which is quite a lot of prejudice, because you don't even know what i'm doing.

"Your Grace," you need to learn to distinguish between the generic "you" and the specific "you" Don't assume you're so important in the grand scheme of things

Linden Labs -- a privately run corporation, NOT a government -- built the tools used in SL. They are available in-world and out-of-world for addressing issues and complaints.

If you (specific) have a garden, perhaps you (specific) are familiar with Voltaire's Candide and how it ends? This is possibly a paraphrase but I think close enough to its spirit: "It's better to simply tend the garden" than to seek fame, fortune, power, authority, etc. -- let alone the "best of all possible worlds."

Happy gardening

Until,of course,one of them decides to grief the crap out of you at which point you'll run screaming for help to Linden Labs.

Then when, and indeed if, they get round to banning him for a few days he/she will sail straight back with an alt to do the same thing and you'll tear-arse back off to LL screaming blue murder and add more to their already weighty workload.

God forbid a player that could represent your sim and sort it out in a matter of minutes.

That would infringe on your freedom now wouldnt it dear.

who are you to tell me what i should do? why do you think you're important enough to tell me what to do?

i don't. you're imagining things again. i really suggest you stop confusing me for that cartoon of me you have in your head.

what you do to me in small is magnified in large between a government and the individual, and vice versa.

* * *

government and corporation aren't that different.

what are the constituents of government?
why does one person tell another person to do something?
why should they listen?
what are the difference between government created infrastructure and corporation created infrastructure?
do they function the same? how does the origin affect the function?

* * *

you don't really address these issues. rather you'd get involved in passive aggressive bullshit about why i'm doing what i'm doing. i can return the favor. really i can. i can even be civil about it. but i can be just as offensive as you are.

do me a favor and stay on topic.

You certainly give more than enough for the imagination to go on, it seems. How am I to imagine something other than what is presented to me? I invite you to show me a different cartoon if you so choose. If you do, fine; if not, fine. Your choice.



Topic being: "No real need for government." The original post clarifies what is implied -- "No real need for government in SL." I have said, repeatedly, both civilly and forcefully, that I agree with the assertion that there is no real need for a government in SL. I think the equation of LL = "government" is misleading and unfounded, but there's another thread on that. Yet it gets argued in this thread all the same. It gets argued that "government" in SL would be a GOOD thing. To which I respond, not on my dollar! That is my right as a consumer, to support a product monetarily or not.

I am honestly trying to be helpful here. You (collectively) don't have a receptive audience in this thread. Show by example: This is another invitation. I merely tell you that as long as you (collectively) stand on your soapbox there will be people who will focus more on kicking at your soapbox than listening to your words. Those same people are more likely to be receptive to positive example -- not negative browbeating.

And if you want me to stay on topic, do so yourself please.

Echoed

What fools these mortals be!

Why would people insist in giving up their freedom and self-determination to self-serving, power-hungry politicians who are no smarter than themselves?



T

because if maybe if people don't attent what is actually happening, then some might take what is not watched.

decisions and policies in sl get shaped by the residents in big and small ways. which residents should it be? power-hungry politicians?

then again maybe it really doesn't matter.

You're at the top of your game, StoneSelf.

There's something about the Political Science forum that seems to bring out this eloquent, socratic side of your personality, that I've never seen before. You seem to be deflecting attacks with infinitely patient buddhist-like poise.

I'm impressed.

~Ulrika~

StoneSelf Karuna:


Agreed, but it's damned tedious to do the watching. Some of us just want to make sure that we keep the freedom we've found in SL. There's no reward in the offing; we don't want any changes to further our own ambitions. So we're stuck in the role of warding off the power-hungry types, and that role will never end, because there is likely to be an endless supply of new power-hungry types joining SL as time goes on.

For example, if I'm serious about my earlier warning -- opt-in and local-scope are necessary, but not sufficient -- I'll have to repeat that point every time a new lever of power is suggested that would enable some power-hungry person with financial clout to replicate a local governance structure into an SL-wide empire. This could get tiresome.

yup.

if a sl government forms, setting it up to make watching as easy as possible would probably be a good idea.

Okay, I found myself counting the prims in my house... my REAL house. So I went off to Charlotte over the weekend and looked at trees until they stopped being prims. Now I'm back and I've bought a new video card. Basically this means that I haven't accomplished anything at all.

But I do have a question: Where the hell is this N-burg place, anyway? Is it as simple as plugging it into the "Find" window when I log in after work tonight? Everybody's talking about SL self-governing and what-not, and Ulrika keeps bragging about how N-burg is working so well. (The same way that a mechanical engineer brags about the 34cm steel bar that he JUST bent to EXACTLY 32 degrees...)

I have a feeling that we'll see more just like it in the future, but I'm confident that there will still be plenty of space for us no-thank-you types to do our thing. Anyway, I'd like to go and see what all the fuss is about.


Gydeon.

It's not all roses in Nburg -- it definitely has its problems too. In a few days I'll post what has succeeded, what has failed, and how we plan to fix things in the next phase.

In order to see Nburg, you'll have to visit two locations. The first is the city itself in the sim of Anzere and the second is our group forum.

The city architecture is a combination of medieval Bavarian combined with post-modern. The goal was to build a dense, curvilinear, organic city that was the antithesis of the typical rectilinear sprawling SL sim. My favorite structures are Urusula Zapata's restaurant, BladeDance Pendragon's Church, and Kendra Bancroft's quarter in the SE of the city. Currently, we're working on moving Anzere in its entirety to a new private sim. We plan to retain the city center and sell land around it to private investors. The goal being to help bring in true citizens to actually live on the land (right now we only have 3 permanent residents).

I also recommended visiting our group forum, as it's where we do the majority of our work. You can get sneak peak regarding the future plans of the group (and our new website that's under construction) as well as all the nitty gritty details on the government and the threads we used to discuss it.

If you have questions, feel free to post in our group forum.

~Ulrika~