No Real Need for Government

So.......you want the right to do what the hell you like but deny someone the right to tell you that your doing wrong - thats freedom is it? In ma bollox it is !!!!

Actually I agree 100% with most - an SL wide government is a BAD idea, but at the same time I think this would be a very interesting experiment spread over a couple of sims.

A centralized government is needed to protect the rights of the citizens of the electronically connected community, including that portion using the Second Life communications system. All proximity based governments are dependent on involuntary membership , involuntary financial support, and involuntary subjegation to the laws imposed by the governments. There is no reason to think that governments existing in the electronically connected community can be otherwise.

The division of the world into separate governments today is not the result of design but rather the result of geographic separation, the costs of travel and the costs of imposing the rule of law over geographic distance. Since there is no effective distance between the citizens of the electronically connected community there is no reason to divide the rule of law into separate governments. Hence the government of the electronic community need have no divisions into separate provinces, regions, communities, or nations. The rights of humans are universal and exist throughout all time and space, and in the world of humans connected electronically, the govenment that protects those rights can be equally pervasive and all encompassing, making the protection afforded by the rule of law ubiquitous and inescapable.

The government of the citizenry of the electronically based community must work closely with the proximity based governments in order to protect the rights of the the citizens of the electronically connected community.

The fact that SL is dependent on voluntary membership, voluntary financial support, and voluntary subjugation to the TOS separate SL most refreshingly from reality. And therefor I think otherwise.



The assertion that the rights of all humans are equal is at best an idealistic vision; at worst, an attempt to place one's argument on an untenable moral high ground. Look at China. Look at the Sudan. Look at the Netherlands. Look at the United States. Look at Guantanamo Bay. Human rights are neither accorded nor viewed equally in any of these "proximity based systems."



It mustn't and it can't. Consider the above-mentioned "countries." It is an impossibility for them to cooperate on the level you claim is necessary. Their interpretation of "the law" and "human rights" is far too much at variance. And I for one think my local government is invasive of my privacy enough -- no need for them to get their soiled claws into SL, thank you.

Didn't Darkwood have a player run goverment type thing? Any members/ex-members of Darkwood care to tell us of your experiences or how it worked?

I'm completely undecided on the matter of a player run goverment..

Zap

I disagree. We can protect our own rights, given the power to do so.



I think you meant to say "can't" in the last sentence there, right? In other words, the "electronic governments" would not have those involuntary features?



Umm... the ubiquitous and inescapable part is not a good thing.
And while the rights of humans may be universal, we do not universally agree on what they are. For instance I believe all rights are 'negative' (i.e. restrictions on power), and rely on boundary-definitions of self.



Hell no. The "proximity based governments" are the cause of 99% of the suffering in this world.

I do believe that the majority of SL residents - correction, all SL residents - have the capability and the freedom to decide for themselves. To that end, please do not presume that your own opinion reflects the majority.

I, personally, singularly, and individually think it's about time there was a gov't forum. Now it can be deliberated and discussed without having to be the ugly interrupting sister of other forums.


- Newfie

I will stand by my 'the majority' since it has been seen numerous times that the majority wants no player controlled government in SL. This forum remains a special interest forum. And it will remin so until a player controlled government is in SL, god forbid.

So, what you're saying, is that the majority should be allowed to govern the minority into not being able to have a government.

Hmm, curious paradox.

I made no comment on the truthfulness of if the majority does or does not want a player controlled government. What I had said was that the no individual player (including yourself or even myself) is qualified to speak as a representative of the majority - they can speak for themselves.

In addition - having a forum about player controlled government is not equating to being in of itself a player controlled government. Personally, I am dead-set against player controlled government (for a whole bunch of reasons), but I am in full support of a forum that discusses the whole concept.

- Newfie

I dont think most people misunderstood what I was saying and apologize to you for not making it clearer.
and twisting my words to fit what you are saying is your right so, go ahead have fun

also a word twister, if your having trouble comprehending what Im saying I regret it.

Absolutely. Although more than a paradox, it's hypocrisy. A group is using directed and organized force (the definition of politics), to suppress and silence a minority group which wants to discuss politics. Even more disturbing is that their goal is to limit freedom of speech and expression of other players. Is this not the very thing which they fear from SL government? They actually are what they fear the most.

It's also interesting to note that they're calling upon the tried and true (but false) statement that majority opinions by definition are the correct opinions. This is mob-rule logic where decisions are justified not on higher principles (individual freedom, utilitarianism, morality) but on simple majority rule. This is precisely why we have a democratic republic (U.S.) where majority desires (democratically elected representatives) are balanced with higher principles (constitution and judicial system).

~Ulrika~

Don't tread on me, Linden Labs - No player government - EVER!

How on earth did this thread get perverted from a simple statement of need (or lack thereof) into a bizarre, misguided tirade about "free speech?"

On second thought, I don't want to know. Just keep YOUR government out of MY second life please.

There's no group trying to stifle the forming of a overall player government. Its individual players that see no need for it, have no want for it and are speaking up since this forum has been forced on us by one individual.

I've read your first two sentences twice. It seems that you're negating my point by arguing the semantic difference between "group" and "individual players". Please substitute "group" with "individual players" in my previous post and tell me how you feel about my direct accusation that you are acting as a force to segregate and to stifle free speech.

As an aside, given that all government is opt in, that participation in this forum is opt in, and SL itself is opt in, your protests are pointless. You are and always will be free (within the bounds of the government created by LL). I really can't understand what motivates your need to stifle free speech and generate incessant protests. Is fear and ignorance truly that powerful?

~Ulrika~

Are you talking about Jeska?

I thought you supported the prerogative of the Lindens to deal with SL in any way they wanted.

You know, if anyone could name a form of government that improved the situation of an area, then i'd like to hear it. The fact of the matter is, government in summary is to take a certain amount of people and make them more powerful then others. It's a powerlust system, Democracy, Communism, Fascism, Monarchy, Oligarchy, Triumvirates, etc. are all a way of a person gaining power over someone else.

What we don't need in Second Life is someone having more power than another. LL is more like a divine status, since they have "ultimate" power, but they're "morally" inclined to do the right thing. Granted they've been known to bend their own rules, I could only imagine how many rules would be "bent" by these future tyrants that would come out of an SL government. But a Linden blatantly abusing it's power would be fired.

Really the closest thing SL has to government right now is some kind of holy feudalism, in that everyone has their estates and the owner of the estate can do pretty much whatever they want. But there are some rules that they have to obey from the Lindens regardless of land ownership or what. So what'd be the deal with a government? Someone takes office in whatever way (I'm sure that the richest or most powerful would get it, so I wouldn't doubt that club owners would be in office over and over, as per usual government, that is that the most qualified for the office is usually the farthest from being in office) and then they have control of everyone and their land even though it's not THEIR land? Or would a government like this have to be based only in full sims where there is no territory splits besides the sim owner, and even there then wouldn't the sim owner have to be the government head regardless since they pay for the land?

So unless they changed the way land ownings is done entirely, I see no way this could be done fairly except for group owned land, and frankly if you want a government done by your group you don't need the official support of the lindens. Just do it.

Viva la revolution.

You haven't heard!

The city of Neualtenburg in the sim of Anzere currently has a representative democracy complete with a constitution. Soon we'll be implementing the second phase of our project, which is a move to a private sim and public invitations to join for those who are interested. From a business perspective it will be a nonprofit cooperative, where all members pitch in to purchase and pay for a sim and then run it together as a group of equals.

So far, the project has had varying degrees of success from smashing to dismal. Later this week I'll write up a post and describe what the strengths and weakness of the project are and why we think the next phase will succeed.

~Ulrika~

If one is "and always will be free within the bounds of the government created by LL" then how can you say that some is attempting to stifle free speech?

Why do you brag about the anti-Bush protests you arranged and denigrate the protests of others who are doing just the same, protesting against what they feel is wrong?

Because my statement qualifies participation not speech. We are free to opt in and out of the forums, SL, and government (participation) but we are still not free to say what we want in the forums. (Although yesterday was truly a great day for free speech in SL.)

Because they are not the same. A protest (anti-Bush demonstration) is an expression of free speech. Whereas an attempt to stop others from exercising their right to free speech is not. (Freedom only exists as long as it does not interfere with the freedoms of others.)


If you had simply staged a protest that would have been acceptable. Instead you engaged in directed action with the goal of suppressing free speech (through the control and moderation of a forum whose topic you are opposed to) and controlling its visibility within SL (by segregating the discussion to a location you feel is subordinate to its current location).

1. What I engaged in is what's known as free assembly and speech (constitutionally guaranteed in the U.S.).
   
2. What you engaged in is what's know as oppression.

~Ulrika~

No, I heard about it, like everything there's exceptions though I did mention that if you want a government you can make it inside your group. But yeah, when it comes to what i've heard about your project it's been mostly dismal and everyonce and a while smashing.

But hey, if you want to create a government in your own little area that's fine cause I don't have to go there ever. But I in no way support a grid wide governmental system.

You have either received information from someone who is ignorant or you yourself are speaking independently from a position of ignorance. I recommend informing yourself. Sorry to be so blunt but I do not care for insults and ignorance masquerading as knowledge.

Feel free to ask away either here or in our forum.

~Ulrika~

A liiiiiitle bit of Column A and a liiiiitle bit of Column B.

I was wondering when the scent of blood from the fresh kill of a newly made governmental forum message board would eventually make you lumber on over. You always had a weird love for Government. Personally, I hate it. I hate the lies, corruption, powerlust, empathy, greed, and selfishness of it all. And naturally, the same thing would manage to transfer it's way into any SL government we could come up with. So naturally i'm totally against the ridiculous idea.

And now that you're here Ulrika, I know that you'll vigorously defend your stance on government to the grave, and that nothing that ANYONE says or does here will do anything to change your mind, not facts, not logic, not circular reasoning not anything. So i'm done with this forum.

Hope Lindens realize that Government is a ridiculous idea after all this.

The Lindens are a government.

They're a corporatist oligarchy (government by the few whose members are selected and ordered in a corporate fashion). From the definition of a government it, of course, has the power to make and enforce laws in our territory (SL). The laws are described in a legal document (ToS) and enforced by controlling access to property (temporary and permanent banning). (Note that LL is not a dictatorship as we often hear in the forums. A dictatorship is a type of autocracy, which is government by a single person.)

What's missing in your head that makes you unable to realize this?

~Ulrika~