Can't buy land on "Azure Islands", but it is listed for sale in the land listing!

I don't want to give the impression I am in favour of what Nexus is doing, but have we established that he demands an up-front charge for his leases ? That they are not available for exactly the $0 he offers ?

If we havent established that, how is he doing anything worse?

On Anshe's argument, if he is giving his residents all the same land tool and "ownership" rights etc that she is, then surely he too is "selling land" and has the right to be in the list if she does. Why should the "price" make any difference? Where is the cut-off?

It just emphasises the true nature of these deals as leases, not sales, or at least as something which needs to be very clearly distinguished.

Lindar, I completely understand your concern for new players in SL. Occasionally we get problems with griefers in the welcome area, and LL's greeter program was aimed at helping newbies, so I think you're in tune with many people who feel protective of new players. It's just common sense when you consider the long term best interests of SL.

My own recent experiences brought the point home in a personal way. As I've posted earlier, a friend of mine from TSO had joined SL, and found me building in Cecropia. Of course I took my friend for a bit of a tour around SL, including a look at prefabs by Ingrid and Barnes. She mentioned feeling pressured by a certain person who has a scheme, and added that there was another newbie with First Land nearby who might also be in the same position of being pressured to sell his land to the same individual.

If my friend had not approached me when I was building I would have remained oblivious to the scheme. But that event crystalized my personal opinion that any scheme to separate new players from their First Land, money or tier is targetting the wrong group. Hands off the newbies is the best policy. SL can be overwhelming at first; let new players absorb it at their own pace in their own way.

Exactly. It isn't a bait and switch if you go out there, and can't click on the land. It would be bait and switch if you got baited for the $0 but then had to pay $19999 thinking you would "get something for free".

What Nexus has are rentals and long-term leases sold as deeds, described as either rentals or purchases but with special terms. The people in Meins and so on understand that.

He offers land for rent. If you want it for a longer-term, you buy it under his terms, which some may argue is what the Lindens do, and others may argue is different, but he doesn't make people pay some kind of "up-front" charge for a rental, it's just a standard schedule of rental costs, or a purchase of the long-term deed arrangement, which doesn't have some up-front surcharge but is a standard rate based on m2 and prims.

Honestly, you need to just go on a field trip in world.

It's false advertising. Period. It might be a crafty 'work-around' for a borked system, but it is still false advertising. The advertisement says it is for sale at a specific price, in this case $0 - yet it is not.

I don't know what others might call it, but in my reality, it's false advertising.

Wrong. Bait and switch happens when one price is advertised and another price is displayed at the point of sale. Thats it. Thats the deception. The simple act of you going somewhere and finding out the advertised price isnt the true price is bait and switch. Whether or not you buy anything doesnt matter, the act of luring you there to begin with by displaying a false price does. Even if no one gets fooled into buying something you can still be guilty of using the tactics.

Disclaimer: I have nothing against Nexus nor am I on a personal campaign against anyone. This discussion is to clarify what constitutes bait and switch tactics and what doesnt. I havent seen his AD so Im not discussing it or him. This is simply about land advertised in a list for $0 that isnt for sale/lease at that price.

What you are writing here is insulting my business and my integrity. You are also not doing newbies any favor by attacking those who actually go out of their way and provide one special offer to young players.

I suggest you spend your time doing something that improves the game for the newbies instead of trying to prevent others from doing so.

I completely agree with this. I believe the buyer should have the right to purchase the land at the listed price and the seller should be held to sell that land at the purchase price listed.

As for the post that started this thread... drama.

I would prefer "questioning" to "insulting", Anshe.

But yes, with the deepest reluctance, and for the first time, I am actually beginning to question whether your concern for the success of your business may not be overriding any concern you may have for the most vulnerable amongst us.

This act shows a flagrant disregard for the concerns many people have posted here. It ignores the result of a poll you yourself posted on this subject. I shows an unseemly haste, not to wait until this listing issue has been clarified and sorted out by the Lindens. "Buyer beware" is maybe ok for the rest of us whilst this anomaly is sorted. But to go deliberately for the least knowledgeable like this - I say again - unseemly haste!

As for your absolutely stubborn refusal to accept that we will NOT stop calling normal "land sales" what we always have, just as the price of you agreeing to call your leases by some other name - why, it is preposterous. You explain this position only by philosophy and semantics, which seem to me of no practical significance. Just normal forum rubbish.

Can't you see how this looks? How can it possibly matter to me, other than as a matter of principle? But you have a huge financial stake in what these things are called, because how they are presented is critical to getting them accepted without too much questioning.

It is only now I am letting myself really consider that your motives on this "naming thing" may be suspect, but frankly I am beginning to find this conclusion inescapable. Why else would you risk antagonising others with such insistence ? Your targetting of newbies has shaken my faith in you.

One last but important thing. In RL I regard every business that I meet with a healthy cynicism. I know they have to make money, so I don't expect them to treat me as a trusted friend. I am cautious. I ask questions. I seek reassurance over conflicts of interest. I may discuss the business with others who have dealt with them. My guess is most people do the same.

For some strange reason, I have difficulty feeling this way here. I somehow feel as though it is a bit rude for me to question or doubt motives. As though every fellow resident is repeatedly entitled to the benefit of the doubt, like a personal friend.

I think we all feel it. Perhaps its because we can talk to each other in forum. I don't understand it, but I feel it.

It has to stop. Particularly with someone as powerful as yourself. You have to accept our right to question every aspect of your dealings with us, and of your motivation, without even dreaming of using words back like "insulting". I don't mean we have the right to demand answers from you, necessarily, but we have the absolute right to consider possibilities and probabilities amongst ourselves without being so accused.

Particularly once you make offers requiring people to place considerable trust in you personally, your possible motivations and the likelihood of conflicts of interest , become public property.

You simply lose the right to say I am insulting you, just because I raise the possibility that your motivation may not be entirely disinterested.

Thank you! *bow* It was intended to be a dramatic post.

I figured And I suppose it did its purpose... get attention to the subject.. Though I do agree with you completely on this one Eboni.. false advertising is wrong.

After that digression I return to the issues.

Is not Nexus being unfairly picked for punishment here ? Have we established that he is NOT supplying land for 0$ as offered? If he is, his may be doing exactly what Anshe is doing, though not targetting newbies. Whydo so many seem to be picking on his deal in particular ? Has anyone ascertained exactly what he is offering ?

Semantic note: The word "targetting" is widely used in advertising to mean "aiming at" or "tailoring for". It does not, in this context, mean "trying to harm or cheat".

Actually very few of us bring up Nexus or his deal. We are discussing the ethics of posting land for sale at $0 when in reality its not that price. Nexus just happens to be the example posted first. Unfortunately I dont recall anyone posting the details of his AD which is why Im not aiming any of my comments directly at him. I checked just now and there are no $0 land sales up.

To be honest.. I might have missed his name being mentioned.. but I have/had no clue who owned that land. I also admit I only know oneside of this... my postings were not meant to single out anyone but make a general statement about my feelings on the subject if it were true.

Thje comments were directed squarely at Nexus when the sim name was posted in the topic.

Also, given the fact that nexus has clearly stated in the forums the land situation there when the island was first launched, I believe this is nothing more than a nice drama thread by someone who thought they could get something for nothing.

My point is simply that its the listing of any of these deals in amongst "Land Sales" that is wrong. If that is acceptable, then $0 is no worse than any other price, so long as it is ultimately not repudiated. The details of the price are not the point. The very existence of this type of listing very much is.

Thats why I dont agree with singling anyone out because their price is $0.

The thread starter went to buy land, and found it was not truly for sale. Misleading advertising, regardless of price.

land = price. KEEP IT SIMPLE!

I dont understand the true goal of the priceing. think about it. IF the land is priced for 0 or 1$ true that might get people to come check it out of course. But when they get there, or bother to map it and see its a private island, they know the truth. When they find out they were decieved, and they have to communicate with the deceptive party, how many of them would persue buying the land for anything but listed price?

I personally wouldnt bother, and would neg rate the land owner. I think you should show your feelings with your ratings! rate the hell out of them for their bad buisness ethic.

o BTW need any land? IM ME

Since you are a late arrival in a long thread, Trifen, perhaps I might fill you in ?

One principal concern of this thread, so far, has been the protection of newbies, who unfortunately don't know enough to do any of the things you would do, or even to understand the nature of the very practice which you think is a deception.

One landowner has just started specifically targetting them.

Another landowner is similarly advertising 'leased" plots as for sale, but of course when one resident arrived to buy, no click/buy was possible (and she objected). The "price" in this case was $0, but we have not yet established whether some sort of deal at that figure was in fact available. Some here are suggesting it was not (a red herring in my opinion).

Hence all the indignation.

Doubtless someone else may give you a different viewpoint, but that's how I see it..

Yikes this thread is an eyesore.


Any way to address some points, yes LL needs to make some changes so people can easily tell the diffrence between renting and for sale land.


On the topic of Azure Islands we have a few way of getting land on our sims and pany diffrent payment options. We work on a basic deed system. The 3 main ways to get land out our sims are,
Rent it from us for a monthly fee (In this sense the land is free you just pay to keep it)
Rent to own, you pay a bit more each month but after that you own the Deed to the land. much like in RL
Buy the deed, This is when you pay so much to start with to own the land (but you still pay tire fees) once you own the land you may resell it to any one you like, but you have to inform them of the strings that go with it (Ie its an estate sim and the tire must go to the gigas group)


I hope that clears things up our end. If you want any more infomation on the sims drop by or IM myself or Nexus Nash for the infomation notcard or questions.

Thanks for the information splat1. It helps clear up what was being offered by Nexus. The AD(s) was gone before I could read it. Not sure there is enough room in the AD (ie about land text) to convey these terms to customers. Maybe use an image in the land pic that defines these terms? Dunno, you might already be doing this. It would be a good start until such time we have better tools available. I think most of us appreciate your reply.

Thanks Splat

So in fact the Azure Island plot was "available" for $0, as offered.
A rental was being advertised in "Land for Sale".

But how can we object, as it seems the only significant difference between that and what Anshe is doing is the price?
This ridiculous outcome underlines the misleading nature of ANY of these private island offers being mixed in, undiscriminated, with "Land for Sale".
It makes their real nature finally clear to everyone, surely beyond rational argument.

And don't say that its the $0 that makes it "not a sale". Where do you draw the line? $1, $10 ?

Nope. None of these deals should be advertised as "Land Sales". Particularly not to Newbies.

Good points Lindar.

This does illustrate the clear need to separate these deals from land sales. But it also illustrates the vast differences in these island plot offerings and what kind of complex GUI would be needed to convey the varied terms to the end user without having to make them travel to the location. What we need is a blue "About" button in both the land sales and places listings for any land or club/store being advertised that spits out a notecard the owner submitted. This would allow room for a lengthy description of whats being offered, along with more pics, etc. Not just great for land sales/rentals but regular stores as well.

Thanks for the clarification, splat1. Though the discussion was initially about the Andromeda land, ultimately my intention was to discuss the very real risk of false advertisement in SL. In your case, the complexity of your rental agreement complicates things considerably.

I'd advise putting something like "May be rented for L$x per month, rented for L$y per month with option to own after n months, or leased for L$z" in the about text. It fits, with 17 characters left for prices and other changes to the text.

Ahh, I misread and thought he was partnered with Nexus. But either way its a good example.

The difference is that what I advertise is not rental, but sale. People pay money and get something that they can resell.

I agree that what is going on at Azure Island is misleading. They should list their land for the selling price, whatever they charge for that option, and not at 0 L$.

Please note that no mainland renter has ever been able to get his offer into the "Land for Sale" list. Yet for Nexus and Anshe and any private island owner it is just a click away.

How fair is that?

This abuse of the list by big landowners should be stopped immediately. It started as an accidental exploit, and every day it becomes clearer that it is indeed being exploited to get an advantage over other landowners. LL have clearly stated that this was an unintended consequence of a change made for a different purpose.

This must stop, until the "For Sale" listings can be changed to incorporate both renting (for any landowner) and lease re-selling, in their own separate sections.

Be aware that this has hardly started yet. Anytime now private individuals who wish to resell their Anshe leases are going to start clicking their way into the list. How scrupulous will they be in describing their offerings to the ignorant ? How happy will they be if Anshe is there at handover, takes the time to explain the downside they carefully played down, and kills their deal ? Is it likely she would ?