RFC: SL Commodities

Bit late for that LF. *adds to watch list*

Back to topic (sort of) - The 'Prim Tax' was in fact an old idea, going back to Beta. They moved to the Land model in 1.2 I believe, and *overall* the quality of builds has gotten better. Some of the coolest things I've seen are prim-light structures.

ReserveBank, there have been general discussions of this type (having Residents pay for something other than Land) going back and forth in Feature Suggestions; I suggest you head over there and look through back history. In particular scripting timeslices have been discussed (for which this nebulous 'scheduler' from 1.7 may have been born). And over here I've heard changes in texture load fees based on file size (basically rewarding smaller files and helping client latency at the same time).

If you're going to quote multiple people in one reply it would be just terrific if you could specify the name of the person you're quoting in the quote tag. Here you've jumbled a reply to someone else together with 2 replies to me. This may give people who are arriving to the thread late the impression that you're quoting me all the way through.


Re: Welfare

Yes, I'm sorry that you can't grasp this, but internally (inside of the game) SL is a welfare state. Externally, LL offers you a higher weekly dispersal of SL welfare in exchange for a USD fee payable to LL. From an internal perspective (inside of the game economy) the stipend is welfare. You may note that SL welfare is also provided to residents who are not paying an external USD fee to LL.

Receiving these gains in exchange for no contribution to the virtual society is welfare. Maybe part of your refusal to accept this could be that you precieve it as an insult. When I say that you are on welfare, I say it not negatively, but factually. In fact, we are ALL on welfare! That's just the way the system is set up; massive welfare payments coming off of the new L$ printing press and going to to every single virtual citizen every single week, with no taxation and insuficient sinks to drain all of this money back out.

I don't mean to insult you (or myself, as I recieve multiple stipends also!). I'm simply making a factual observation of one aspect of our virtual society's economic structure.

This is a real easy one to answer.

NO.

I enjoy building, and may spend a lot of time messing about with different size prims and different configurations before I get the shape/design I want. I am also careful, by limited land size, to keep things prim light as much as possible.

It's hard enough trying to get by without having the prim or land space I need due to rl financial restrictions - without being restricted in any more ways.

If people want to play SL as a financial game - then I have no problem that they want to do so - until, as this proposal does, it affects my right to play my game my way.

Too many people are playing the game to make a real life income, and forget it's just a game. If all there is left in game is people who just want to make money at the expense of everyone else, and camping chair zombies, what's the point of ever signing in again?

I want to build water features, run my club, decorate my house, and fly my tarn. That doesn't interfere with you wanting to play 'stock markets' - so kindly don't interfere with my gameplay.

Lewis

I don't see it as welfare, in or out of game with premium stipends.

It is funds your monthly (or quaterly or yearly) charges pay for. its not welfare, its slowed distribution of paid for funds.

For basic accounts it could be seen as welfare, but I don't. I see the 50/week dependent on the account being active, as incentive for them to stay, while remaining low enough that they must work in world, gamble, buy lindens, or upgrade to premium (thus buying long term). This is Linden Labs investing in the consumer base hoping for a larger return, basic business practice.

I'm sorry you can't grasp that my premium has already paid for my weekly stipend and that its not welfare, really. Its not factually or independently, externally or internally, welfare in any form. I purchased those lindens signing up for premium..I don't pay 22.50 us $ quaterly for 512 m2 and the ability to pay even more to own more. I pay 22.50 us $ quaterly for the ability to own land, the freebie 512 m2, and the 500 lindens a week.

Purchased, not welfare.

In a sense, it already is. And the political party thing is already being done ingame. And they have all this awsome tax stuff going on. Why don't you go there and start your political party instead of lobbying on the Lindens to enforce a system on everyone else to satisfy your own personal greed?



When you go to a restaurant, you have so many thing to choose from, and you can even specify specific changes on the dishes. But you can't force them to change the menu, or it's dress code, etc.

By the way - hope all similar whiners take the first boat out to such revolution calles (some New MMORPG).



I hope they do.



Assuming everyone wants to profit in SL.



Oh, but THERE is much more similar to the model you propose than you credit it for.
NOTHING is free in THERE. EVERYONE has to work or buy the T$ to have a very decent level of fun. HELL - even the ability to landmark and have a minimap (or was it a compass) costs real US$.


Well. Some competition is always good. It allows for people with different needs to be catered by different companies.
I say bring it on!!

Jonas:

You don't get it. Fine, you signed up for a premium account and
according to the paperwork, you get L$500/wk. The problem is
how for L$500 x Thousands of Other L$500 is processed in the
SL economy.

When most folks get their L$500, what do they do with it?
They spend it. The go run their Widget Store and buy their
favor widget with that L$500. The owner of that store takes
in that L$500 and does what with it? They dump it on LindeX.
And that in turn leads to the situation where you have more
L$ being sold than US$ buying it up.

Now if the widget store owner could take their L$ and reinvest
it in SL in some capacity, the L$ would remain "Held" in a Linden
Dollar denominated asset. Locking the L$ in SL and reducing the
number of L$ sold on LindenX. The net result would be more US$
chasing a limited supply of L$, causing the value of the L$ to rise.

But its too bad the new economic gurus hired by LL have failed to
understand this concept. They talk about making GDP numbers
available and worthless statistics that show the same thing. Mudflation.
They need to explain to The King, that more work needs to be done
to keep L$ dollars from seeking out US$. They more in-game
investments are needed to stop this never ending slide downwards.

So it doesn't matter what you pay per month and how many L$
dollars you get. The issue is about keeping those L$ dollars from
being sold and left in the pockets of SLers.

People who break up a posting, qoute every few sentences,
and comment on each one should be banned.

Its called taking the original posting out of context to
suit your attempts to discredit the author.

If you can't respond in full, don't respond at all.

Mmmhmm. Yeah. Gees. That'd be a very terrible thing if our lives depended on it.



The problem with your ideas is that you are calling out to implement policies in SL which will vastly degrade the level of entertainment of the masses, all because you would love to have 1L$ every day be closer to 1US$?



Maybe when you come up with ideas that will help stabilize the L$/US$ value without messing up everybody's world, you might be heard. SL was built for entertainment and creativity. The fact that the Lindens put an economic side to it is a plus. The fact that we exchange the Lindens for US$ is a greater plus. Where else could I have bought my Xbox from earnings completely made within game, with only the investment of US$10? <sarcasm>Drats, if things continue like this, I won't be able to buy my XBOX 360 not even with a gazzilion Lindens - unless of course I ask the lindens to change everyone's lifestyle a bit just so the L$ value decreases enough for me to do so.</sarcasm>



That's democracy.



That's dictatorship.
I didn't know capitalism was in favor of dictatorship.

Full response:
So now the way the forum is posted to should also abide by your "ideas".
Nothing was taken out of context. All full ideas were quoted and responded to. It makes it easier to read for many. It's actually more work than responding in full.

There is already a game for people who like to play at economic simulation..... its called the stock market.
Leave SL alone.

It's interesting how we can all bring different experience and different values to the table and see exactly the same thing in two completely different ways. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Sometimes. Other times it's more an act of breaking a long and drawn out speech down into more managable chunks, so that the reply makes more sense in context.

You can't just say "well exclude everything external to SL" because it's not really external. Monetary contributions to LL have a direct and extremely important influence on SL. And even if one was to do a thought experiment where one did just consider things you could affect directly from the client, it still wouldn't be like RL welfare, because it doesn't have to be spent to survive, RL money isn't printed solely to pay RL welfare, there are no social security contributions in SL etc. It's not welfare, it's stipend, which may in certain ways be analogous to welfare but is not the same thing.

Nothing personal here, but I also get very irritated by the idea that people who don't make shops or scripts or whatever aren't "contributing", even just in the context of virtual society. Perhaps if you were a complete hermit and only ever logged in to sit inside an invisible skybox and talk to yourself, you wouldn't be contributing, but everybody else does simply by moving around, talking and just being there - yes, even campers, a little bit, much as I am loath to admit it. If people come to SL to socialise then social presence is contributing, and even if you just fly about and poke at stuff, you're still interesting background to watch. Dead sims are no fun.

Let me sum up this thread for you:
ReserveBank Division: MONEY! I WANT MONEY! EVERYONE SHOULD PAY ME FOR EXISTING!
The general populace: Dude, WTF?

I do get it..you don't get it. I paid for my stipend, I get it..or no premium.




Then LL can stop all their buying of Lindens. Problem solved..all Linden dollars stay in game. I already proposed they stop their selling and buying elsewhere.



Your choice.. you can be wrong if you want. In my world, when you pay for something its not welfare. Something like oh..I don't know - the real world maybe?

a. Even keeping this idea of welfare strictly internal to the game, if you are going to call it "welfare," then you need to look at the extreme paucity of "jobs." If in the real world people could make money in only one of three specialized ways (as well as, of course, in one oldest profession way), then maybe we would have lots more "welfare" in the real world, too. Because if we didn't, nearly everyone wouldn't be able to buy anything.

b. "Receiving these gains in exchange for no contribution to the virtual society is welfare. Maybe part of your refusal to accept this could be that you precieve it as an insult. "

It's not so much an insult as much as it is flat-out incorrect. The idea that people don't contribute to the virtual society unless they produce and sell items (or script, or buy and sell land, or sell their bodies) is an absurd contention. They contribute to it simply by being here, if nothing else. Without them, we have no one but each other to sell stuff to. We depend on the Lindens constantly providing us with these people. The Lindens themselves depend on the existence of these people for the success of their game - not on whether or not they happen to make items.

coco

people who dont study the SL history will repeat the same mistakes of the past.........

http://history.secondserver.net/index.php/Version_1.0.0

http://history.secondserver.net/index.php/Version_1.1.0

http://history.secondserver.net/index.php/Version_1.2

Prims are already a commodity, I buy an island, I get 15K prims, My renters get a number of prims based on how much land they want deeded to them, I love to build but if I had to pay an L for every single prim I rez, that would be plain silly, I am just beginning to build so experimentation requires ALOT of prims. Stop trying to make a fun game into capitalistic bullshit, you want to be a capitalist, go out in RL and get a job.

and yes, I suppose you could call me a capitalist but since I rent my land toothers at JUST what it takes to cover my tier, I guess Im not a very good one, just like good people and good fun. ( as a GAME should be ) The best items in SL are not built to make enormous profits and my favorite designers are def not the most expensive ones.

*wild applause*

You are missing a few very important points.

We already pay for prims under the current "Land = Prims" system. Even more importantly, we pay LL for prims in US$. LL needs those US$ to stay in business.

If I want to rez 500 prims, I have to own 2560 m2 of land to support them. And I have to pay LL 15US$ every month for that land. Under your proposal, I would just pay LL 500L to rez those prims--500L which LL created and then would destroy. LL would make no real money at all. Keep in mind that LL can't sell L$ for US$. If LL were to, then the value of the L$ relative the US$ would be affected just as if Jane ContentMaker had sold them.

The other alternative is to add your prim tax on top of the existing "Land = Prims" system, so that to rez those 500 prims, a player would have to both pay LL 15US$ every month for land AND pay LL 500L$. This is a sure recipe for an economic train wreck.

Lots of people would just plain quit. Again--basic economics, if you raise the cost of a service, less people are going to buy that service. You might think, "So what? We get rid of all those freeloaders!"

But it doesn't work that way. The US$ value of L$ in circulation is not determined by the amount of L$. It is determined by the DEMAND for L$. Less players = less demand. Even worse, as players leave, many of them will cash out their L$ balances. So you would have less demand for L$ coupled with and increased supply of L$ for sale.

Oh--and by the way--LL still looses real US$ as Premium players leave and tier down. And when people start to see that "Players in World" number dip, they will reasonably be concerned with the financial health of LL. Since the only thing giving L$ any value at all is the existence of the SL world, any perceived threat to the company that runs that world will lead to panic selling--people dumping their L$ while they think they can still get some US$ for them.

That's it! Perfect! I can make it invisible!

Thank you thank you thank you...

(I'm fairly close to exactly the hermit you describe, minus a few customer housecalls and occasionally setting some things out for sale on the ground)

No, ReBaDi, you don't get it. It isn't "according to the paperwork". It's the service offered for the the money paid. Consumer confidence is part of a sound economy. Viewing a company's obligation to live up to their promises as "paperwork" shows a lack of commitment to the consumer. Trying to "game" the system or skirt the rules in order to make a quick buck might seem like a good way to make money to you, but it reduces confidence in the economy and leads to people going elsewhere for their entertainment. In the real world if a company treated me badly, I would just not shop there any more. In SL that same person can create an alt and go back into business again. So in SL the chances of people quitting and spending their online time elsewhere is a real possibility.

Capitalism isn't about you making a quick buck off unsuspecting newbies, or playing a loophole in the system to make money, it's about creating a system where everyone has the chance to profit off their creativity and hard work.

And there is no liberal cabal keeping your absurd ideas from being implemented. It's the fact that they're absurd that's doing it.

Believe what you want. Keep patting yourself on the back that
the SL Economic Policy is working just fine. And continue to
enjoy the downward free fall of the Linden Dollar on the
LindenX.

Mudflation is Second Life's Middle Name because the economic
structure and policy is run by nitwits. If the L$ ends 2006 higher
than L$250, I'll take back everything I said. Otherwise, I'll have
to pat myself on the back that I am correct and the current
policy and its implementation is a receipe of disaster.

Read this from last year and ask yourself, why is th L$ still
going down? Seems like LL can't fix the problem with their
Socialist Economic Reform.


1/11/2005
A False Economy? Lindens Fight for Economic Stability
by Matthias Zander
Source: http://www.dragonscoveherald.com/blog/index.php?p=614#more-614

Bonus decreases. Ratings price hikes. Event support disappearances. These three things that could be seen as catastrophies are the Lindens’ latest solution to the less-than-beautiful economy of Second Life. Robin Linden took the time to speak to a crowd of around 100 SL residents onthe afternoon of January 11.

“We think it’s important to keep a close eye on the economy,” Robin told the gathering of avatars, some of whom carried signs protesting the changes.

“The changes are pretty simple, and are meant to do a couple of things,” she explained. “First, to manage the flow of money into the SL economy, and second, to start to deal with some of the problems we’re seeing in events and in ratings, the economy being the main issue.”

Her comments were met with so much chatter from the crowd–some in protest and some in support–that Robin often had trouble making herself heard. But eventually she was able to get across “the facts.”

Here is how she laid it out:

Robin Linden: 1. rating bonuses will start to ratchet down starting next week
Robin Linden: rating bonuses account for about a third of the money going into the system each month
Robin Linden: 2. event support will be discontinued except for classes and such
Robin Linden: 3. it will cost L$25 to rate someone
Robin Linden: 4. there is no change to any fees you currently pay for land or membership
Robin Linden: 5. there is no change to weekly stipends payments, which are by far the largest source of Linden currency

Robin’s five “facts” can be grouped into two different categories. The first three state what IS going to happen. The final two state what is NOT going to happen.

First, rating bonuses will begin to decline. This is the amount that each user gains per week above their base stipend because of the ratings they have received over time. For premium members, this is anything over their $L500 stipend per week, but for basic account holders, it is anything over the low $L50 per week that they are entitled to. The figure that has been stated by the Lindens for this decline is 50%. The speed of the decline has not been stated, only the fact that it will happen and that it will begin starting with the patch that is to be released the morning of January 12th.

Second, event support will be discontinued besides “classes and such.” This essentially means that if your event is not educational, it will not receive any funding at all from the Lindens. Perhaps we shall soon see “Pimping 101 at Club Lotsa HOs” popping up on the events list instead of “Come Dance at Club Lotsa HOs” from now on. Hey, as long as they teach something, this vague term will apply to it. Perhaps the Lindens need to work on developing an exact definition of this.

Third, the price of ratings will increase from $L1 to $L25. Now, while this may seem like a good thing, all it means is that the people who are currently far ahead in the ratings will never be reached. With it costing 25 times more to rate someone, those people in the top ten have secure places unless the Lindens decide to wipe or reduce ratings, something that Robin said would not be done at this time. This also means that you have to think harder about rating someone because you like their clothing. Do you honestly like it enough to spend $L25 telling them that?

The two things that will not be changed in these changes are pretty similar. There will be no increase or decrease in the price to use Second Life. This includes land tier fees as specifically asked by multiple audience members. The actual stipend amount given out per week will also not change. This means that those who currently have a basic account will keep getting only $L50, plus their reduced bonus, each week. The effects of this could be astronomical, making it so that the rich of Second Life get richer while the poor get poorer.

The changes were inspired by concerns among the Lindens that Second Life’s economy had been growing out of balance. Money supply has indeed been rising in recent months, and there is also concern about property prices.

The announced changes had a significant impact on the price of the Linden dollar compared to the US dollar today. Yesterday, a bundle of $L1000 was trading on the Gaming Open Market for US$3.78. During the meeting with Robin, the price rose to US$4.00 per bundle of $L1000. In response to a question from the Herald, Robin indicated that the Lindens’ target price for the Linden dollar is just that, US$4 per L$1,000.

But the rise of US$.22, while seeming small, is actually quite large compared to historical fluctuation patterns, and there is some concern that fears of changes to come will lead to an even higher US$/L$ exchange rate.

SL residents have been comparing this announcement by the Lindens to the announcement that There.com made on May 21, 2004. This announcement that their product would no longer be supported eventually led to the downfall of the There system in the eyes of most. Only the future will tell whether or not the decisions made by the Lindens will have a positive or negative impact on the system. All that we can do as users of Second Life is to express our opinions to the Lindens in an informative and respectful manner so that they can obtain accurate feedback on what they are doing.

The Herald has secured the promise of an interview with Robin Linden, but it remains to be seen when that will take place. Robin told the crowd of almost 100 residents gathered at Stage 4 today that she would be back in-world over the next few days to field more questions, complaints, and even some support, which was also to be heard at the meeting. Changes to event support did not stop a protest meeting that was planned for 6:00pm on Tuesday, however.

Continue to expect full coverage of these changes from the Herald in the hours, days, and perhaps even weeks to come.

Yes, I'm sorry that you can't grasp this, but internally (inside of the game) SL is a welfare state.

No it isn't.

When you're not logged on, your avatar is hard at work in the prim mines, making the prims that are pumped out of the wellhead between the continents and released into the air at the end of that long long pipeline. THAT is what pays for your stipend, the money your avatar earns in the mines.

If you've got a premium account, then you've paid for an avatar with a good job in the mines. If you've got a basic account, sorry, your av works at the mine face hauling buckets of prims to the converyor belt. If you buy Lindens, your avatar's got a bonus, maybe it found a rare kind of prim!

But don't talk to me about a "welfare state", User, until you've done YOUR time at the workface alongside your AV!

I have 2 things to say

1: Eggy you rock- best thing I have read all day!!

2: ReserveBank Old bean you are right in so far as yes, something must be done to stabalise the L and the economy. But old chap, you are sadly wrong in your ideas. I call it a case of excellent intentions, bad ideas. Now add the fact that you want to sell these Prims on YOUR exchange thereby lining your pockets and you make yourself suspect and very unbelieveable and noncredable.. I whole heartedly suggest you A: examine your own true inner motives ( I know you can see them even the blind amongst us can) and B: Please put your rather Republican brain to work to come up with a non self profiting idea that might actually work. I understand Shaun Altman is trying to put together an economic summit to examine and explore ideas, I suggest perhaps you try and see if he will let you be a part of it.