Perhaps a Minor Rant: The PIT BUILDERS

Okay, now I"ve always limited my exposure on these boards, and tried to stay out of some of the various arguments brewing around here.

But not this time. What I saw today honestly disturbs me JUST a little, and I feel the need to share, even if only to vent my disgust a little bit. Apologies, for that.

I'm out shopping for some land, for a new project. A tough task, that, and it takes one all over the SL globe.

But while I'm out today, I may have noticed a rather disturbing trend. Maybe it only bothers me, and it's fine for everyone else. I don't know. But it bothered me enough to speak out on it, so forgive me for this. Admittedly, I'm venting, here.

Time after time tonight, I end up on these little plots of land and I see a familiar trend, in a huge percentage of them. Many of them are covered with little "for sale" signs and boxes, but that's not the issue: If i buy the land, I can clear them.

It's the PITS that disturb me.

During my search, I come across lots that were bought by some fairly wealthy and powerful land speculator. And what they've done caught my eye:

- Huge lots are purchased, then subdivided into smaller ones. No crime there, but then...
- They LEVEL each individual plot of land first. Not just level, but ... LEVEL. If a hill is there, it is flattened, even if a portion of the hill remains and is now cut into a sheer cliff. (I can usually tell when a hill has been leveled, because the newly created "flat land" retains the rocky soil texture of the original hill)
- Then, they dig a PIT, usually about 10 to 20 meters down.
- They then FLATTEN the pit. In a few cases tonight, I tripped across adjoining PITS, all in a row, because of this practice. Instead of pitting the whole original lot, they subdivided and then created MULTIPLE 10m deep pits.
- Then, they double the price and, because of the newly created flat pit bottom, advertise it in the "Find" option as "flat land"

So many holes in the ground, today.. some of them side by side. So many decimated landscapes, gutted hillsides, lost wooded areas, and tortured waterfronts... It was depressing to fly around today and see all of this, to say the least. I would rather fly smack dab into a hundred invisible buildings than to keep seeing all those pits with their little "flat land for sale" boxes in them...

Now, not every plot had this done, of course, and when they were pitted, it wasn't all by the same speculator. Human nature being what it is, many people do this..

But am I the only person this bothers? Surely there has to be a better way. Yes, if someone were rich enough, I suppose they could buy all these back.. replant trees, terraform the land back to a more reasonable condition. The lot I eventually purchased tonight went through that very same process and looks fabulous now, but I can only afford to do just one.

Sure, it's just cyber landscape. means nothing, in the long run, right?

Perhaps. But nothing, to me at least, is more depressing than to be flying across some brand new, beautiful landscape ('Oscure', in the new continent, I think), and then suddenly come across this huge, gosh-awful ugly HOLE created soley for the purpose of being able to advertise "flat land" and jack up the sell price.

I'm probably the only one who feels this way, I know. But I wish I wasn't. I'm not wealthy enough (and never will be) to follow after these people and repairing the damage their greed has caused.

But if one other person sees these pits as I do, and opts, because of that, NOT to buy those lots? Maybe my feeble little rant would have done some good, after all...

Who knows?

I thought it was only the 'old' sims that have a terraform limit greater than 4 meters...

How do you dig a 10 meter deep pit in a sim that only allows + - 4 meter terraforming?

Andurant, could you please post some photos and examples of what you're describing? I'd like to get a better picture. Using Debug menu to remove overlaying structures if you want would be handy, too... thanks!

What Surina said. This only applies to Island Sims and the older sims. Most new "public" sims don't allow much terraforming now.

I was all over the globe yesterday, so yes: I can't say at this point which specific sims it was in (well.. except for the one I bought and filled. That one was in Dowden).

Torley, If I go out again, I'll start taking some photos. I should have thought of that yesterday.

I've seen what you are talking about, and it is in the new sims, and it is just in the 4 plus or 4 minus range.

The easy fix is, after you buy it, of course, is to go into land edit and click on "revert land" as many times as it takes for it to stop moving, and then it finally gets back to what it was. Of course, the neighbour of it is now terraformed up or down the wazoo : (

I agree, it is a rapacious and pernicious practice. It makes me sad.

I can see why it is happening, however.

When land barons can't sell their land quickly, the first thing they do is chop. They chop into 512s or 1024s, and put out loads of signs. This is because *this works to sell it faster*. They have 30 days before they have to pay tier on that lot they got from auction. So they hustle.

The next thing they do is flatten, because the singlest biggest request they get from people who contact them is "give me some flat land I can build on."

New people often don't realize at first (I know I didn't ) that they can flatten land themselves, and make it pretty, and not like a pancake. They can also *first* put down a house, *then* just tuck under the bits of land sticking up, without having to pancake the land completely into a pulp first.

The severity of the land market situation now is causing some barons to reach for these solutions. It has to do with the land glut from the Lindens, huge amounts of New Continent land, a lot of it unsold, loads of Linden-dollar denominations on the auctions, and of course the dozens of private islands sold now to barons for deeding and selling in residential communities.

But I quite agree, that by making one plot ugly and flat and putting a spinning sign on it to sell, and lathering and rinsing and repeating that 100 times, they've probably reduced their sales to a certain kind of customer.

The harsh reality, tho, flat land and spinning signs sell land faster. I've seen it with my own eyes, it dismays me, but we cannot jump over this truth.

I'm not really getting that "thrill of recognition" either, Andurant.
A coupla pictures or even a landmark or two would definitely help.

I've seen what has been mentioned here when new sims come online and are first put up for sale. The seller decides to flatten the parcel, even if it is part of a larger slope, evidentally in hopes that people will be attracted to the 'flat' nature of the plot.

I don't understand why, for residential plots, you'd want to flatten it. Building on a hillside is not difficult and it lends to a more convincing look.

I love building on hillsides and making my builds work with the shape of the land but I admit when I first started, I really wanted to find a FLAT piece of land. I think that's what most newbies are looking for as well.

I love building on hillsides and making my builds work with the shape of the land but I admit when I first started, I really wanted to find a FLAT piece of land. I think that's what most newbies are looking for as well.

Absolutely.. I think that sloped plots can be imposing for some people - but I also think that it can be quickly overcome once they see other well-done hillside builds.

My rules for selling land:

No signs - my customers aren't idiots, or at least, the ones I tend to attract.

Smoothing only - I only smooth out things, not flatten, make adjacent borders congruent if possible.

Smaller multiples - I tend to undercut most sellers, especially my favorite.

Smaller lots - I'd rather subdivide a 1024 instead of selling a few large lots, and people have thanked me for this.

Keep Existing Trees, etc - I try to retain any linden objects when possible, and with the new option, sell them with the plot.

Just doing my part to keep SL from being totally chunked and flattened.

Maybe part of the solution here is to hold some educational events showing and explaining to newbies how to use their edit land tools. In my experience when you show somebody how they can manipulate their land and pop out Linden flora by the dozen, they are soon happily changing up the look of their land. Don't forget to mention that Linden flora only takes up one prim each. I always have liked that bonus.

In other words - be part of the solution, don't just complain about it.

I don't think the problem lies with the newbies that might buy this land but rather with the landbaron that sets it up like this for sale. From what Prok is saying this flattened land appeals to the lowest common denominator land buyer.

Personally, I like Maxx's rules.

-Ghoti

Maxx isn't a land dealer. Unless he is selling off his 5k windfall that had been publicked. Perhaps he sells the odd bit now and then -- but of course, who knows? He may have a fanstastic secret existence on an alt as a well-known land baron. Somehow, I doubt it though.

The problem with Maxx's rules is that they sound nice, they seem reasonable and intelligent, but they don't work.



Customers? Maxx has *customers*??? Wow. Who knew? Well, whatever the high-end nature of Maxxian customers, the fact is, most customers are attracted by spinning, coloured cubes. This behaviour was inculcated in them as infants when they first stared up from their cribs and saw those coloured, bright mobiles with the brightly coloured cubes spinning on them. And...it went from there.



A land dealer who has just collected hundreds of thousands of meters of land is not going to take the time to smooth out Linden-terraformed land. And when they are wholesaling or liquidating out somebody, they are not always going to be able to do that kind of work. I notice that Anshe, unlike others, actually takes the time to do a lot of creative terraforming and planting to make the product look better.

Land sells, whether it is pretty or not. If it weren't for that reality, we'd see better compliance.



An older player with free 4096s, lots of posrates that put cash into their box, at least for now, and other networks that give them income sources, can play this game. It's not a game newer players can play. So you don't get credit for playing it.



Well, bully for you. Um, subdividing a 1024 I hope no smaller than a 512! But most people other than newbies don't need a 512. A 512 can't hold a house really, except for a few that were designed for that purpose, and when they hold a house, they can't hold its decorations. So most people wouldn't appreciate this.



Governor Linden trees transfer with a sold plot regardless of whether you use the new options or not. That's because a player cannot take ownership of a Governor Linden tree and manipulate it around such as to sell it to another player. What he can do is go in his library and find a copy of the same tree and put it out himself, then click off that "sell with objects" function.

One should never make a defacto statement with little to no proof. How do you know he's not a 'land dealer'? Is it just because he doesn't fit into your pretty little definition of 'land dealer'?


Unnecessary and adds zero value to the thread.


Oh really? If that was true, this thread would not exist, now would it? Fact is, many people have seen parcel after parcel that has been terraformed to a flat plane, destroying the natural landscape of the sim.

No biggie Juro - I just sell what I have in excess, it isn't like I've wrapped my life in it like others have.

As for the other arguements, whatever, doesn't change what I'll do. You're cool with me, Juro, you've got great building style.

Maxx would bend over backwards any number of times to say he was all tiered out with his 4096s, etc.

He then made a big public proclamation here, to mad applaus and cries of "well played" that while the land barons were sleeping, he picked up 5k of snowland in public.

And he has the odd land here and there. But he himself has done all the publication one needs of his land dealings in this game, such as for me to be on very confident ground that he is not some major, wholesaler or retailer of land.




Nope, perfectly in keeping with the kind of nasty, crappy, vindictive, and stupid comments Maxx makes to me. Like one of my favourites: "Laundry folded? Into the box wine yet?"
That sort of thing.

You all dish it out. Can you take it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prokofy Neva
A land dealer who has just collected hundreds of thousands of meters of land is not going to take the time to smooth out Linden-terraformed land.

Oh really? If that was true, this thread would not exist, now would it? Fact is, many people have seen parcel after parcel that has been terraformed to a flat plane, destroying the natural landscape of the sim.
__________________

Do we know how it came off the auction?

Do we know if it was liquidated and came from a player?

Do we know if this occurred in more than one sim, and on more than 4 pieces of land?

Did the player who posted this stuff ever come up with pictures and specifics?

No.

Was Maxx talking about only this situation?

No.

He was talking about his own vaunted and *cough* voluminous practice of smoothing first. So I was pointing out that most dealers wouldn't be able to smooth first in dealing in volume.

That this land owner made the pits and the flat land for a quick sale is regrettable, but need not be yet another venue for the FIC to display its touchy and protective egos.

Oh, I can take it, but unlike some other people, I have no issue in being corrected when I'm wrong.


Actually, yes. I have seen land in the northern sims and the lake sims that was terraformed *by the seller*.. it was not delivered that way from LL.

Pictures?

Names of sims?

I just don't agree with Prokofy's flat-out dismissal of your land selling rules simply because he does not feel that you fit into his definition of a land dealer. You made some great suggestions that have worked well for your land dealings - yet Prokofy tries to make it out as though those suggestions are invalid becuase you don't sell on a level with other land dealers.

Additionally, he dismisses everyone elses experience simply becuase *he* doesn't see it. I've seen freshly baked land that was later terraformed into flat planes by the seller. Oh well.

Noted. I will gladly take pictures on the next freshly baked release.

I don't know why you think I'd make this shit up Prokofy... I'm telling you what I've seen. You might not have seen it, but I have and next time, I'll make sure to summon you so you can see it for yourself.

Yeah, well I'm used to it - the whole paranoia/aggro profile is a bit old to me, that is why I don't bother addressing yet another whinescraper post from 'er.

Its ok man, I know where you are coming from, and let me tell you - it isn't worth the effort. Apply your logic and reason to where it will do most good, not spinning your tires in the meandering mudtracks of our most favorite prolific poster.

Good suggetion!

It sure is a good thing that Prokofy can offer an objective, and untainted by personal issues analysis of Maxx's business.

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