A Better Business Bureau?
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Henry Hutchence
Registered User
Join date: 7 Jan 2005
Posts: 83
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04-07-2005 05:29
Having a repository of information is the main idea. The question is, if you compile it, will you now be liable to disciplinary action for "attack on an individual or group" if you merely publicize that there are allegations concerning an individual or group and their business practices.
Money leaves the game when you buy land from the Lindens using L$ and in one or two other small ways (uploads, for instance, or the L$30/week to be in Find, etc.). But no, not through GOM. Prok's wrong about that.
The money leave's my game when I cash it out. I don't keep it and see if it gets more valuable. I don't plough it back into the economy by buying land in-world, or purchasing goods or services. It's left my ambit.
Oh, to be sure Zeppi or whoever then has my money -- it's merely changed hands, which is what money is for. But Zeppi doesn't buy land or goods or services, he hangs on to it, and resells it...to those who do buy land or services. So sure, it doesn't "leave" the game in the sense that yeah, it is "money in circulation" but....it leaves our games because we exchange currency from one country to another.
When I take dollars out of the US and use them to buy rubles in Russia, let's say, which has a currency that isn't generally convertible on world markets, I'm helping to dollarize Russia. SL is like a poor country with a dollarized economy. When I exchange currency, I take one thing and get another for it, I don't stay in that system where I keep using the same currency.
You don't have to be a whiz at monetary policy to understand that this is a dysfunctional economy and one which rewards some and not others (those who sell content in-world for Lindens using free prims or relatively inexpensive uploaded textures, versus those who buy land on the auction in dollars and then struggle to recoup those same dollars back out of the game. Yes, out of the game.
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Rent Land and Homes and Pay Per Prim! $1/prim for experimental building in Furness and $2/prim for beautiful forest dwelling in Patagonia and Zephyr in new continent !
Cienna, I'll stop calling you a xyz, if you stop being a xyz. --blaze Spinnaker
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Walker Spaight
Raving Correspondent
Join date: 2 Jan 2005
Posts: 281
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04-07-2005 07:22
From: Henry Hutchence Having a repository of information is the main idea. The question is, if you compile it, will you now be liable to disciplinary action for "attack on an individual or group" if you merely publicize that there are allegations concerning an individual or group and their business practices. This will be an interesting question. The CS states "Actions that marginalize, belittle, or defame individuals or groups inhibit the satisfying exchange of ideas and diminish the Second Life community as whole." IMO, publishing claims of poor business practices is no more marginalizing, belittling or befaming than giving someone a negrate. In fact, it's less so, since a negrate could be for anything, it's just a blanket expression of distaste. A specific complaint about business practices is limited to just that and doesn't call the individual's entire presence into question, as a negrate does. Perhaps it's also a good idea to publish the accuser's name with each allegation, and also to publish the number of allegations that individual has made. That would help cut down on grief-based accusations and give the BBB and the community an additional way to vet/weed out "frequent complainers" or at least take them with a heavy grain of salt.
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Random Unsung
Senior Member
Join date: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 345
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04-07-2005 16:30
From: someone This will be an interesting question. The CS states "Actions that marginalize, belittle, or defame individuals or groups inhibit the satisfying exchange of ideas and diminish the Second Life community as whole." IMO, publishing claims of poor business practices is no more marginalizing, belittling or befaming than giving someone a negrate. In fact, it's less so, since a negrate could be for anything, it's just a blanket expression of distaste. A specific complaint about business practices is limited to just that and doesn't call the individual's entire presence into question, as a negrate does.
Perhaps it's also a good idea to publish the accuser's name with each allegation, and also to publish the number of allegations that individual has made. That would help cut down on grief-based accusations and give the BBB and the community an additional way to vet/weed out "frequent complainers" or at least take them with a heavy grain of salt Of course, defrauding customers, or maliciously claiming a business defrauds customers, is indeed an action that "marginalizes, belittles, or defames". The defrauding or slandering party would bring on such an accusation. The problem is...what if you have trouble proving it? What if the target of your complaint is someone who is highly regarded, feted, etc.? In the news? The winner of prizes? You'd like to think that the community and Linden Labs would still be willing to look at a complaint if it was not a frivolous or vindictive one. Now, I'm not so sure that the AR system is really protected from frivolous and malicious misuse of the system. I imagine there is so much noise to signal on there that you can't expect the managers to cope. Let's say you hang up a shingle in-world, just like the RL BBB, and say "complaints here". You gather them. You see if there is a pattern. You see if you have more than one. You don't rush to publish them obviously until you can see what is what. You start by asking the person in question for their side of the story, and you might find that it is just a mistake, or a misunderstanding, some angry newbie who didn't figure out you have to pull the stuff out of "contents" in "edit" mode and thinks he has an empty box, etc. So you get enough of the story, and then you put it on a notecard dispenser? A blog? A something? And those interested to get consumer information can check here. But...can you imagine the furor? And...won't the Lindens claim that a function that they believe is theirs alone has been "usurped," that is, the ability to determine whether another player has committed a wrongdoing? I think that all too easily, the mere discussion of an allegation, especially if it is an allegation of a highly-priced, powerful content or land baron, is not going to get a hearing. If you press it, you may well find yourself getting warned by the Lindens that you are now the target of an AR. This is why some wishing to create the BBB seek some assurances of a space for performing this function free of nuisance ARs and disciplinary actions. What a BBB does is not really so much a "rating" of a business, or an advice not to do business with a company, it simply tells you if there is an investigation or not, and then what the findings are. So you then make your own judgement.
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Rent land, homes, and shops at reasonable rates with great benefits from Ravenglass Rentals.
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Blue Burke
god I love this game :}~
Join date: 5 Jul 2004
Posts: 147
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04-07-2005 17:33
From: Henry Hutchence I would think that what could protect you is a) your good business practices and your voluntary participation in a business code of ethics established by your peers and open to public scrutiny and b) you willingness to support and participate in a BBB. That's how it works in RL. Henry, without knowing me or having ever done business with me I see how you are missing my point. Personaly I dont need anyone to "Protect" my interests. In SL are reputaions speak much louder than any BBB made of a staff that has clearly developed there own opnions of the Business leaders in SL ever could. Sorry but, I dont personal feel that the intentions here are as stated. I have read all to many over opinonated posts by are begining poster here to beleive there is any possiablity of a fair shake. Nor would I feel that "Dues" and a "Board" would ever do anything but pad the founders ego. Although in concept, maybe there is a manner in wich this could work. Just with proper leadership.
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Walker Spaight
Raving Correspondent
Join date: 2 Jan 2005
Posts: 281
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04-07-2005 21:39
A blog is a good idea, yes.
And if it's a board of people doing the vetting, on a rotating basis, you get more equity as well.
You could pick the initial membership however you want, whatever the bar is you have to pass for membership, and then see whether people pay attention. That will probably be the best gauge of whether it's working.
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Henry Hutchence
Registered User
Join date: 7 Jan 2005
Posts: 83
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04-07-2005 23:49
From: someone Henry, without knowing me or having ever done business with me I see how you are missing my point. Personaly I dont need anyone to "Protect" my interests. In SL are reputaions speak much louder than any BBB made of a staff that has clearly developed there own opnions of the Business leaders in SL ever could. Sorry but, I dont personal feel that the intentions here are as stated. I have read all to many over opinonated posts by are begining poster here to beleive there is any possiablity of a fair shake. Nor would I feel that "Dues" and a "Board" would ever do anything but pad the founders ego. Although in concept, maybe there is a manner in wich this could work. Just with proper leadership. Blue, this is a very good example of the kind of problem people encounter in SL. You believe you don't know me and haven't ever done business with me because you are so large, and do such a large volume of land trades, that even if I spend $50,000 or something close to that, at that time $200 US, on a large tract of land in Wakeley, a waterfront cliff, you have no recollection of me whatsoever, though we spoke for some 20 minutes or more. I might have a grief with that, let's say for the sake of argument (although I accept the harsh rules of this land game). Perhaps I noticed what you bought this same tract for on the auction, which let's say, for the sake of argument, was half that cost you were now marking up to, even granted your need for margins to have a profit and cover expenses. Let's say I made some offer less than that price, just for the sake of argument, and you came down a little but not much. Let's say that neighbours who had bought land from you in the area had picked up rumours that you were building a mall. Let's say that during those negotiations over the price, you let drop a number of times the idea that of course you could build a mall, even on a sheer cliff face. And let's say, when I asked, but how could this be, it's not technically feasible, you indicated the name of a sim, Laka, where it was indeed achieved. So imagine, let's just say for the sake of argument, that I feel dismayed, railroaded, and threatened a bit (although I understand perfectly well the rules of the harsh land game and this is all just a hypothetical) and let's say I make this purchase as a defensive buy to match some purchase I made for a half or third of that cost on the auction, even for more land. And I make it, to save my sim, and the sim next to it, and the sim next to that, from a mall, a mall that will lag, a mall that -- while we all recognize its role as the heart of commerce and a deserved heart -- will make my residential experience a misery. So let's just say that for the sake of argument, Blue! Where can I go? I can go to a Better Business Bureau. I can't get a clue enough from what you write, which is a bit mangled, to understand what you mean. But I take it you think of the BBB as something that is there to "protect your interests," the business community, and since you, as a powerful being, don't need anyone to "protect your interests" then you dismiss it as unnecessary. But a BBB protects consumers first and foremost. From unscrupulous business. And it protects businesses from unfair charges by having open procedures to investigate and making the allegations public so that the public and the media can examine them, in an open society. And in doing this, it protects business, as well, because a climate of trust in businesses can develop -- the kind of climate sorely missing from this game, with its vicious anti-commerce culture and anti-business climate. A BBB is not set up to play "gotcha" with businesses. It is to try to find some legitimate, open process by which consumers can examine business practices, and demand some accountability. If they actually have facts of fraud, or unscrupulous tactics, etc. they can air them. A BBB might have respected land traders on it. But when you and others start talking about boards and dues, I can't help thinking you are talking about a Chamber of Commerce, which is defending business interests but not necessarily consumers' interests.
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Rent Land and Homes and Pay Per Prim! $1/prim for experimental building in Furness and $2/prim for beautiful forest dwelling in Patagonia and Zephyr in new continent !
Cienna, I'll stop calling you a xyz, if you stop being a xyz. --blaze Spinnaker
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Logan Bauer
Inept Adept
Join date: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 2,237
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06-05-2005 11:27
From: Shack Dougall Okay, I'm sleepy and punchy and probably have no business posting, but ... I don't fully understand foreign currency markets, but I don't think that a Peso is destroyed when it's converted into a US dollar. Is it? It's not so much that the peso is destroyed... As it travels over the Mexican border, a US dollar is rez'ed on the other side as your Peso is deleted. This can cause a number of issues, such as suddenly appearing to fall-through your peso, or having your peso suddenly hit a patch of bad physics and end up in Canada with Yen. And yes, I too am punchy and probably also have no business posting, so I'll appologise in advance for the bad-analogy joke, or anyone's anti-something-or-other interperetation of it. 
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