Newcomer

Hello iam new and i want to now how economics works in SL
I see verry high prices for land and it looks of the rich people in RL can affort the high prices.
It looks of SL is comes to be a 2nd RL with also money problems poor people can in the RL not affort it and also not in SL.
What are the best steps if you want set up a place in SL.

I think about to setting up a nice place for people to come relax on different types of manners, no sex or gambeling.
The price for this relax happening cost the people L$ **,** but not to make big profits
the profit will be used for charrity and for new projects.
I now that a group is called Free Tibet in LS and i like the idea of a Tibetan Monestry in SL

I think about of to want to start : hire ore buy 1/32 Region 2,048 square meters.
Iam in the RL not a rich person but i want to spent a max sum of L$ +/- *****,**
a month.
Therfore i need to make a transfer from my creditcard to GOM for L$ money
for making this nice projects.

What are the cost if you want someone to help you with making the place
I think i need learning a lot therfore i want maybe in the beginning like to want hire persons for L$ not us$

Needed are a place to stay, nice buildings, nice textures, scripts.

I want paying this of my own so that i not have the responsebillity to must send or ask groupmembers for a L$ sum in the month.
But free donations for the project are welkom
Let it wel understand that this projects are a tribute and not to make money for it.

Hi Oerbewustzijn - welcome to Second Life!

My suggestion is to talk with at lease 3 different people about land in SL - I suggest these three Prokofy Neva, David Valentino and Misty Rhodes. Each with give you a perception which will help you get started.

Enjoy your SL!

You might also consider speaking with Anshe Chung. She is a very successful business person who might be willing to give you a few hints, or sell you some land. Especially if she likes your idea...

Also, keep an open mind when you speak with the three people Merwan mentioned. They've each got a unique outlook on the way SL operates, and you'll get the full picture only by speaking with them, and many other people.

Hello, welcome to SL.

You're absolutely right that at its current stage, SL is for rich people -- or for people who are at least able to work incredibly hard to pay off the tier (maintenance fees) costs each month. People who can take the time to spend on SL to make a RL business tend to be people who have their RL expenses subsidized or at least minimalized.

There's no sense in "blaming the rich" for this state of affairs. The Internet, as cheap as it is, take servers, equipment, and most of all, skilled people to run it, and they need to be paid, just like you like to be paid for your work. They cost money, lots of it, and currently that's just how it is -- people who don't want to spend more than $9.95 per month to get 512 free land and $2000 free Lindens each month need to radically adjust their expectations of SL.



This isn't quite the case, because if you can put time and huge amounts of work (free labour) into it, you can in some cases get more out of it than a RL job, but in most cases, you're going to get far less, and you have to treat it as a hobby or merely a very sideline activity.

What are the best steps if you want set up a place in SL.



You will find that trying to charge admission in SL for anything, especially something very new that no one has heard of, trying to get traffic, or visitors to that place in a highly competitve environment, will just frustrate the hell out of you.

The tools for charging admissions are very poor -- this would require a more detailed explanation but trying to get admission is just not a way to make money or cover costs. Nor can you expect to do that by getting the "dwell" or traffic points that can accumulate on your property. This at most will put a relatively small number of Lindens into your stipend from LL each week. It's worth working for, but it's never worth counting on as a form of income. Making it really generate income for you and even win the top prizes on the "developer incentive" system (read about that on this website) might be a goal to aspire to but so relatively few get this prize that it is not worth wrapping your life around it especially when new.




Our group doesn't have a monastery, at least yet, we are just doing some experimental building and it is extremely laissez faire, for a low rent or low purchase (after 30 days to discourage speculation) you can have a mountain patch to build an Asian-themed building and a place to hang out and discuss issues or cooperate on various activites. It is not at all a planned, themed, organized, structured place in the way some people need in SL -- creating such places take enormous amounts of work as you'll find out.



Well the tier level of 2048 actually gives you access to 2560 because you will count into that your free first 512 tier/land allocation. You'll need to pay $15US for that.



You might not want to rush into this until you figure out what you are doing. You have $500 coming in each week on the $9.95 account, and you can go around and check out contests, Tringo, money trees, odd jobs etc to make a little more money.

What are the cost if you want someone to help you with making the place
I think i need learning a lot therfore i want maybe in the beginning like to want hire persons for L$ not us$

No one can tell you this in some flat, definitive way. You're going to need to do a lot more exploration, thinking, discovery, watching, etc. to get an idea what you can expect.

You don't need to pay RL dollars for labor but the Linden dollars have to be generated from some kind of work or creation, or purchased, so it becomes the same as RL time and RL dollars one way or another.



Well, we all need that. I think you'll find that if you come on here brand-new and say "I'm not rich and gee, is this a rich person's game only, that's not fair, and I need to have a cheap way to generate for myself lots of income and friends and please come work for me for free" -- that people will greet you with indifference or even scorn. Most of them that have any money in the game have achieved it by studying a long time and working extremely hard at learning to build, script, design, animate, etc. -- these skills have very steep learning curves in SL and can frustrate all but the most persistent or talented.

To get all those nice buildings and nice textures, you don't have to go far at first -- go to GNU Warehouse and Stillman and several of the other freebie places for newbies (type "free" or "freebie" into FIND PLACES). No doubt some older players will embrace you with offers of free stuff...although to be honest, some of them might disappear on you after a few weeks if you don't "pay off" for them in some way by helping them promote their own business or chosen activity.



This is on the right track because you cannot get the group tools as they are now to really function to get contributions in ways that cover just your own expenses (the group funds circulate to all members equally regardless of their contributions of land, tier, labour, or content).



There are many, many people doing non-profit, charitable work in SL, so competition for donations for non-profit work is also extremely fierce, just like business. And most of the people doing non-profit work have a very organized plan, often hooking up to some RL issue like health or minorities or disaster relief, etc. So you can't expect everyone working extremely hard on their chosen very organized and specific charitable activity to come and give you $100 LL just because you made mY nIcE cHiLl Spot on your 2048.

My advice to you would be to go to as many events and classes as possible and fly around as much as possible to see what kind of activities and communities are around and spend maybe 2 weeks or so acquiring that information and knowledge. You might start by buying and selling your 512 which is only $512 to get some experience in the land market (sell it for $2000-$4000 depending on location, etc.) and get some money for further capital in the game to buy the 2048, which will cost you around $13-15,0000 or much more, depending on whether it is in PG or M. PG is SL's best kept secret, and shopping in PG category of land now, you will find many terrific bargains, especially in snow, which is considered the worst land by many.

Many people will help you if you are new. But the forums especially are a tough place to be when you're new. Many people will greet your kind of message with a flippant remark or a shrug or even a hostile "why should I do something for you when you are just sitting on your land waiting for everyone to come to you and pay you money when you don't show any ideas or content."

This is a very, very content-rich game. If you don't have the content, they don't come. Making competitive content or services or ambience is very hard. Some achieve it by going it alone and being extremely persistent. Others achieve it by essentially apprenticing themselves to existing top designers, builders, etc. and let them take the lead on their SL experience -- it's one of the reasons why it is tough to get started.

Another note of caution: I see English is not your first language and I'm also willing to bet your 21st birthday is either ahead or not so far behind you. As someone who speaks English and Russian fluently, I can tell you that the attitude toward people without excellent fluent and well-written English here in the forums is at times very nasty. There are a few who will tell you to "go back and learn English better" -- and oddly enough (or not so odd) these are the very ones for whom English is also a second language LOL. I'm saying this in advance, so they don't do this, but don't let them get to you!

Ultimately, I would say think a bit more about your content. You say it's not for rich people. It's not sex or gambling. It's not on a very big piece of property...well, you're defining it by the negative. SO think about what it is that is positive, but I think to get the answer to that question you will have to explore some more.

How sadly cynical and paranoid, Prokofy. The "pay off" is the personal satisfaction of having helped someone.

Cubey I found Prokofy's information to be very good - only comment is it's a bit long. I'm willing to look at it as stylistic differences - not necessarily paranoidness.

Remember when some people use to hassle me 'cause I was a phony seeing the glass half-full, sunshine and rainbows?

Same with Prok - he sees the glass half empty, but why throw out all the relevant info. for that one negative statement?

SL is big enuff for all of us, eh?

It actually was a very good document, save for that tiny little bit of cynicism.

"talk with at lease 3 different people"? Lease?

This is my direct, personal, actual, factual experience.

I went through my first six weeks, too, gettng smothered by oldbies who just had agendas ultimately to come in and buy their expensive crap.

I went through my first six weeks and even six months (where I am at right now) approaching oldbies, asking them for help, getting a little help, and then having them completely disappeare, reneging on promises and pledges they made to help me and others.

I had this experience enough times, with enough people, that I thought it was high time to come on these forums, and to start to hold up a mirror to these very self-important, arrogant types who still style themselves as Friend to All and Helper to Newbs to shake up their smug arrogance a bit.

I've had older players that I lavished praise and attention and adulant long hours of listening to turn around like junk-yard dogs and bite me in the ass, for no Goddamn reason on the planet.

SO yeah, I'm just a *tiny bit* cynical about some of the reallly grand assholes in this game. They know who they are -- or they are oblivious. There are some that go on helping, but frankly, they should also be aware that they didn't come through on things they so magnanimously offered.

I find most people who offer you something are doing it so they can look good, and even imagined they have helped you. In fact they haven't. In fact they didn't deliver. In fact they just want to feel good about themselves without having to work very hard.

That's why I continue to maintain:

"There is no limit to the good you can do if you are willing not to take the credit."

Merwan, if you think you've ingratiated myself to me by putting me in some highly arbitrary list that doesn't make much sense, you haven't.

I see through it.

I answered the newb all on my own without your intervention or clearance, and will continue to do so.

So noted!

Excellent!

True giving is never concerned with recognition - and the truest gifts are given in silence.

Why is it considered the worst?

I didn't throw out all the relevant info, Merwan. I made no comment on it at all. It's fine information. However, as someone who spends a lot of time helping new users, you will probably agree that old players don't have a hidden, evil agenda when they lend someone a hand.

That may be your *interpretation* of your personal experience. I don't agree with it, however. When someone offers help to a newbie, it isn't a binding contract to forever mentor them and provide hours of personal attention. Also, perhaps they didn't respond to your method of communication, which I notice tends to be more than a little negative. Maybe your experience isn't common to all new players.



Again, this is a very cynical point of view. I'm sorry that you can't believe in good motives.

Hello Prokofy Neva thanks for the information
And it is verry difficult for me to express in english language
--
There's no sense in "blaming the rich" for this state of affairs.
--
Iam not blaming the rich.
But some people have difficulty to pay the rent in RL and this people likes to have also a home the want to make in SL but ther they find the same problems at in RL maybe.

Iam live in europe and i can get my creditcard for L$ but maybe a player in a poor country's they could not.

--
You will find that trying to charge admission in SL for anything, especially something very new that no one has heard of, trying to get traffic, or visitors to that place in a highly competitve environment, will just frustrate the hell out of you.
---

Charge for acces in the places is not a goal maybe everting sal be free but i tought a small donation is a possibillity.
I talk about donation if the places are build not now iam not searching of funding of my project
The mean goal is the cost comes out my pocket earned in RL
For that i want to start with the project i want to now what the month cost are
and of i can affort it.

I have seen verry expensive prices for land
and i have also meet people and all the people tell me that land buying is verry
expensive in SL.

I want nobody to let work for me en making it all.
I want it to learn how i can make all but some buildings are verry difficult to make.
But i tought i have read in SL that there are people
the makes thing for you and are verry gifted with it an you can hire this people.
In RL you can also hire a architect and i tought in SL also sorry if i have it misunderstanded.

I do not rush anithing in im searching out.
Thanks for your replys

..how many posts here respond to the poster and how many are about not being able to ignore Prok in spite of many proclamentations to do so?

2
4

As for myself I try not to ignore anyone. Even if you disagree with someone, you can still learn from each other. But yes, your point I assume is for us to stay on topic and help the new guy.

I am not promoting ignoring anyone. Never have been in favor of it. Rather, I am suggesting that the OP be paid attention to.

And it is curious and ironic to me in light of the recent shunning campaign.

I agree Cubey - most old and older players just wanna help out and have fun.

Point taken Margaret.

Oerbewustzijn, folks inWorld will be helpful - look any of us up anytime.

IF you're willing to live in PG, then you can find very cheap land. And if you are willing to spend a few days shopping, you can even find some deals in M. It just takes some time. Sort the LAND SALES list by price and square meters for what you want, and take a look, Generally the farther away from the telehub, the less it will cost.

I hear your point about hiring the architect. I agree. It takes a lot of doing to learn the building tools, and you can fruitfully chose to do that, and if you have a knack for PSP and CAD type stuff and a high degree of perserverance, you'll get it. But don't wait for that to happen to enjoy this game. Hire a builder or architect.

Some of them are new like yourself and will charge very low, or will just trade a service perhaps.

I was able to hire a really good new architect with RL experience just in exchange for land at first, then later I paid him fairly high rates, but not as high as some.

Some architects here will charge hugly expensive rates, i.e. not uncommon to have them charge say $50 US for a house of more than 3k m2 of 700 prims (and their house might take a lot of those prims up LOL). For some,it's worth it to have that really nice house.

Others think even $25 for a house on a 2048 is too pricey -- I think not. I think if you are going to pay $25 a month in tier, then pay $25 in land and pay $25 in house, too, to get something you really like and will really use and enjoy in the game.

I've had some really excellent architects also build me huge malls for a very reasonable price because they are creative, enjoy the work and the visibility and just don't really require architectural fees to have some game money.

If you post an ad in the "employment wanted section" saying "Wanted: architect to build club on 2048. Will pay reasonable rates" then you will find a lot of people answering, some of them charging LL $500, some $2000, some $5000 -- you'll have to sift through their offers.

I could give you a very pointed and candid description of what I think of some of the top-of-the-line architects and their "services" but we're not allowed to name names and make personal attacks, even when it is a consumer-related matter.

So let me tell you the points of reference for hiring builders:

1. Have a very, very specific thing in your mind you want from them and don't expect them to dream it up, i.e. tell them you want a box 20 x 20 colored black with blue lights hovering over it or a miniature replica of the Parthenon replete with little statutes of men on horses and then you are more likely to get all or at least some of your vision.

2. Have a very, very specific budget limit you can't go over so that you, not they, are deciding the price you pay. Telling a prima-donna architect, "What is your rate?" often gets a confused stare because they think people should "just now" or they don't have standard PUBLICLY ACCESSIBLE rates but just make them up as they go along depending on your six-degrees-of-separation from some eliting grouping in the game. So tell them "My budget is not over $3500-5000" so they get it.

3. Know the size of your lot, the number of prims it can hold, and the dimensions of the lot (use the 10x10 prims to measure it) before you ever bother an architect or you will frustrate yourself and them.

4. Have a DEADLINE for performance of the service. This is so hard to get out of the architects in this game because they put their real lives first -- and who can blame them! You do too! So give them a deadine up front that is flexible but firm so they don't screw you.

5. Have an understanding of how you will make the transfer of the building. It could involve a single prim-link-up and an inventory pass or it could involve having to make lots of links and selling for $0 after you pay their fee.

6. Do not pay the full amount until the job is completed and in your ownership/inventory. A downpayment of 20 percent might be a good pledge of your good will.

7. Think of how you will handle dispute resolution. If the architect makes a purple box and not a black box, has he put "modify" on so you can change it? Is he selling you the texture with all its modifies clicked off so it is yours to change and adapt?

8. If you are not getting anywhere with the forums and talking to architects here, go in the game to the sandboxes. Travel around sandboxes and look for good builders. Ask them if they are busy. You might find a new person willing to work faithfully to get started, and both of you will enhance the economy of the game considerably when you do that.

9. Be sure you have thoroughly examined the prefab market -- especially free prefabs -- before engaging a builder. There are free prefabs from the Lindens that aren't bad; free prefabs from GNU Warehouse; various prefabs of free or low-cost nature you can see in the store in Boardman; and many builders who only charge $200-500 for prefabs you can use as clubs. So don't overlook these possibilities.

I disagree. Some do.

And while others aren't so "hidden" or so "evil" it is still an agenda of funnelling, grooming, apprenticing, shaping, controlling, and not one that I can endorse.

It's all about patience in my book. Go about buying land slowly (any land you want above your free 1st land). Watch the auctions for a week or two. Fly around in the game and get used to what seem to be the average cost per meter squared for both PG and Mature land.

Talk to lots of different people. Don't let the opinion of one person in game or in the forums convince you to make a move, especially a monetary move. There are a few scammers out there, but the majority of folks are pretty straightforward and will be honest with you, most tend to be pretty respectful, especially in the game. Here on the forums? Well, it's probably better to not even bother with them at first. You will get all kinds of highly opiniated people telling you exactly what you should do and with whom you should do it.

None in this thread that I see.

It was a 48 hour shunning that was called for and not everyone who is responding to Prokofy said they were going to that. Sure a couple have stated that they couldn't resist, but most simply said that you cannot 100% ignore a poster because you see what they wrote quoted in other people's responses, so why bother.

If they don't continue to ignore, and you can't point how bad a simultaneous move to ignore is, then you will point out that they aren't ignoring?

Why is it that a few posters on these forums are so eager to point out when Prokofy is "wronged", but they have such a difficult time admonishing Prokofy himself when these forum squabbles erupt. They seem able to ignore all of the insultive invective oozing from him that fires others up, that which encourages them to respond in kind. Sure he makes some good points, it just gets lost in all the classist BS.

Prokofy instigates most of the flame wars he becomes embroiled in. This is what happens when a person tries to mold an existing environment to fit their personal agendas and play style. Let us not forget that Prokofy has a history of "saving the little man" and "exposing" certain elements of society he finds undesirable in other online worlds, TSO to be sure. Prokofy is simply afraid that the "tekky wikis", or other types of groups have undue influence over the internet. Maybe this is because some of them help build the net, embraced it, promoted it, etc. early on, it's hard to be sure. Perhaps it's akin to the same anger, fear, or uneasiness one feels at finding some friends or acquaintances have moved from chess to checkers as their past time of choice, and you don't play chess. Some will refuse to learn chess, some will learn chess but want to change the rules out of spite, and yet others will learn to play and embrace it. This is a fear exhibited by some older gamers. Some simply refuse to participate, some wage war, some have no difficulty what so ever and are able to accept that the experience is different for every single player, and that this diversity is a good thing. FYI: I am in my 40s.

If you want to join in with Prokofy on "exposing" cliques, conspiracy theories and the like, rather than sitting on the sidelines crying "foul" when your home team gets sacked, by all means please do, although it would be nice if you could apply the sames rules of behavior you expect from other forum participants to Prokofy as well.

It would be a good exercise for you to find an example of an actual personal attack in what I say -- because you wil be hard put. There aren't that many. When they appear, they appear as the result of harassment and taunting, and I merely respond finally in kind.

Invective on certain topics isn't a TOS violation.

The more I hear posts like yours, the more reinforced I am in my determination to keep challenging the status quo ante and to keep raising questions about those who not only control this game and keep a hammerlock on it, but those within that admittedly very small group who have an even more ambitious agenda of controlling the metaverse as a whole.

I hardly think there's anybody here who's had a "hard time admonishing me".Nothing of the kind! Plenty of indulged in this sport. Not to worry.

My war against the SSG in TSO was a noble one. Read the copious records on this matter and draw your own conclusions. I'm still a member of TSO and my land and my hotel is still intact. Most of the SSG wandered away from TSO finally when they'd had their fill of knocking over a lemonade stand and taking candy from babies. They went on to terrorize other worlds like Star Wars where I think the clever game manufacturers figured out that the thing to do with bands of marauding totalitarian-society makers like that is to just give them their own server

That same bunch seems unavailable in SL, probably the creativity got to them ROFL. They can survive better when they can harvest lot points off skill drones, etc. When they have to deal with intelligent, creative people, it's harder for them to get a foothold.

Only a 48-hour shun? Pshaw. I laugh at you. That was the best you can muster? Feh.

Well it was and is a nice improvement of the forums for the simple reason that people stopped responding tripe to me, and that enabled me and other adults to go on talking, even if we violently disagreed with each other.