Petition: Let Basic Account's Own Land!
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Jackline Hugo
Registered User
Join date: 5 Oct 2006
Posts: 28
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10-17-2006 01:36
To: Linden Labs, Second Life Residents We would like to see the following statement made by Linden Labs, the owners of Second Life (hence forth known as "SL"  , upheld: "Your first Basic account is FREE, and includes access to events, shopping, building, scripting- everything you can do in Second Life." (Fetched 10/17/2006 from http://secondlife.com/whatis/pricing.php) Although the Basic account in Second Life (henceforth known as "Free account"  is described with the tag "everything you can do in Second Life," it has one fatal limitation: no matter how much (L$) a Basic account member earns, s/he cannot purchase land. This limitation puts creative and positive-contributing members of Second Life in dangers of loan sharks, frightful landlords, and worst of all, virtual homelessness. Their contributions to SL may never see the light of day because of this debilitating handicap of the free account. Moreover, it may also lead to the eventual demise of SL. There are, in fact, several other MMOG platforms around, most notably, Multiverse ( http://www.multiverse.net/), which, when releasd, will definitely be SL's prime competitors. There are certainly other ways for a company to make money, and these newer MMOG's may allow those who'd rather embark on a quest penniless the ability to own land, when earned. For the future of Second Life, we would request that our petition be accepted. Sincerely, The Undersigned (see link below) Please read it again -- and sign my petition @ http://SLOwn.AuZen.com
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Snowflake Fairymeadow
Registered User
Join date: 21 May 2006
Posts: 704
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10-17-2006 02:06
How would LL make money under this plan?
How would tier fees be paid by basic account holders?
What would be the incentive to even have a paid account if everyone could own land?
Linden labs needs to be able to keep the electricity on for the servers. Who would pay for that?
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Steve Steed
Premium account
Join date: 2 Sep 2004
Posts: 420
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10-17-2006 02:14
NO! I pay to owne land and I am very happy to do so. I give back to LL by doing so. Premium and land owners is what helps keep SL going. With out that there maybe no SL. Free accounts do NOT help in this way hell I do not see how Free accounts do help. It takes $$ to buy new servers, pay the staff, and stuff like that. If they make it All FREE say good bye to SL, and LL it just will not work. And yes There are certainly other ways for LL to make money like RL %$#@@&^ ads all over the SL world, popups and stuff like that. But I do not thank no ones like to see this. not me I can say that. Premium all the way!! What I like to see is no more "NEW" free accounts.. It will help in a lot of ways. To do away with "NEW" free accounts. Pay to play. 
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Dillon Morenz
Registered User
Join date: 21 May 2006
Posts: 85
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10-17-2006 02:15
From: Jackline Hugo ..snip.. Moreover, it may also lead to the eventual demise of SL. No really, the successful outcome of your petition would more likely lead to the demise of SL (I believe LL has yet to turn a profit?) because nobody would need a premium account, not even to support those "creative and positive-contributing members" who don't want to contribute in real dollars for something that more than pays for itself when you take into account the weekly stipend. 1 x Premium Account with L$400 per week allowance = $72USD L$400 x 52 weeks = L$20800 To buy L$20800 on Lindex today (L$271.9 / US$1.00) = $76USD If your petition is successful, please let me know so I can request a refund for the seven remaining months of my premium account subscription. I'm sure thousands of other members will feel the same. After all, why shouldn't we get something for nothing too?
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Jackline Hugo
Registered User
Join date: 5 Oct 2006
Posts: 28
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Part 1/2
10-17-2006 02:41
Economics aside, let's consider the foundational principle of SL: "Your world. Your Imagination."
This is clearly not upheld by the biased member system we have now.
Though there are many contributors to the world of SL who are not holders of the Premium Account, it is not really their world since they are forbidden from freely purchasing land.
While I realize that for the Premium account, there are *other* benefits in addition to the ability to own land, I am not speaking of abolishing those benefits. There will always be those who would want those benefits. It is incorrect to say that no one will sign up, were the freedom to purchase land given to all.
Though Dillon mentions the Lindex, Dillon does not consider the economic fact that a country's currency can only stagnate when it is *dependent* on that of another's. Though there should always be a conversion rate between rl $ and L$, there should be *no* limitations based on the buying power of L$, while inworld.
I'd like to keep my posts short in hope that they do not appear too daunting, and that they're read. Therefore, I will consider the flip side of the coin in my next post.
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Daisy Rimbaud
Registered User
Join date: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 764
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10-17-2006 03:04
In any case, you can own land with only a basic account. You just have to purchase it from someone who owns enough sims that they can make their own rules for their territory.
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Jackline Hugo
Registered User
Join date: 5 Oct 2006
Posts: 28
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2/2
10-17-2006 03:07
Economically, there are several ways a country with its own currency can make money. However, for a "country" like SL, the ways are uncountable. Unlike a traditional state, SL possesses full control to everyone's bank account, ownership of both small objects and land. Moreover, to add the quintessential personal pull, SL also owns its citizens' bodies -- avatars. I am not going to propose taxes on the people, but rather, taxes on the new venues that are possible in SL. (Do not panic. Be still.) It is essentially possible to sell real world objects via SL. There are those who are already doing this. However, what if big companies like Amazon or Costco or BestBuys or Bustbusters or iTunes (or [insert company]) were to sell their wares virtually? With the right scripting, you can test out a bunch of nifty tech stuff. Vid's and streaming mp3's can already be fed into SL. And, reading inworld is already possible, and demonstrated by a number of SL-related publications. And Costco: food like cereal, canned goods, frozen goods, are stuff you can trust anyone with a refrigerated truck to handle. Though grocery shopping online is not yet the hype, SL's virtual emulation of it might just make it so. The idea is: corporate partnerships. It's not ads all over the place -- but in fact, it's a mutual gain for both you and LL/SL. With this enabled, you can virtually walk to whatever store you might not want to leave SL for in real life -- and buy what you need. It'd be the hottest new addition to SL -- and a must for the addicts. Moreover, it'd give those who are disabled and confined to boring online shopping cart pages, the "feeling" of going shopping. Of course, there's the concern that an incredible amount of work will be required for something like this. Solution: Here comes the Lindex part. Residents of SL *are* the missing workforce. They design for $L. And, many design cheap, as you might know. You can get some custom tailored made objects for under L$100 sometimes. Crazy. (Ahem... and people design whole train stations for only L$15,000?!) So, basically, SL has this underpaid workforce willing to create for underpayment. And control over the currency. But, whoa, SL has the workforce of the world. It's almost like you're getting millions of people to do free work... or like remember back in elementary school your teacher used to give you "points" or "candy" if you do your homework? It's Crowdsourcing at its best. (c.f. http://cambrianhouse.com) Big companies pay US$ (or real world currency) LL to get their stuff inworld, and LL commissions its workforce of millions not with real world $ -- but with LL, money that they control. It's like the points and candy your teacher had back in elementary school. (Alternatively...) To invoke US history, suppose that in the early landrush days, the US$ was banned from purchasing land, in preference over the GB€? What would the country be like now? (I can go on and on and on with this...) But, I'm sure Phil knows this. He was a physics major, and physics majors are the World Controllers in Brave New World. Surely, they are the wiser... (I'm actually serious. And I don't mock physics majors -- was one myself, once upon a time...)
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Jackline Hugo
Registered User
Join date: 5 Oct 2006
Posts: 28
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10-17-2006 03:09
That's, in a way, owning land through the jaws of a loanshark. To those who focus more on creating than on making money (being an artisan in SL does not promise $$$ -- consider how little they're paid per item), the lands sold by such third-party dealers will not be within affordability range. Read my two replies above. Sry that they took so long to write. From: Daisy Rimbaud In any case, you can own land with only a basic account. You just have to purchase it from someone who owns enough sims that they can make their own rules for their territory.
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Damanios Thetan
looking in
Join date: 6 Mar 2004
Posts: 992
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10-17-2006 03:10
Okay, message got posted simultaneously with your answer.  From: Jackline Hugo Economics aside... LL is a company. From: Jackline Hugo .. that a country's ... SL is their product. Although a lot of people consider SL a virtual world and a newborn country, often including Linden Lab and Philip Rosedale. And I'm not saying there is a good amount of truth in that perspective. LL is still bound by RL economic principles and business strategies. Simply said. SL will disappear if LL can't make any money off of SL in the long run. So, although petitions, political discussions and democratic principles are certainly interesting, fun and enlightning, in the end it's about RL US$ to survive. This means that, if you're convinced this is not just an improvement of the political and social landscape that SL is, but also an improvement on the business model that LL is using to be/become profitable, it's maybe a good idea to clarify that point. Although I agree with principles of equality withing the community, I can't see this idea translating to a more or even equally profitable situation for LL. Maybe you can enlighten me?
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CJ Carnot
Registered User
Join date: 23 Oct 2005
Posts: 433
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10-17-2006 03:15
From: Steve Steed Free accounts do not help. It takes $$ to buy new servers, pay the staff, and stuff like that. Free account or not, if a free account could own land they would be paying TIER to Linden Lab on it would they not ? Linden Lab will ultimately choose whichever strategy is most profitable for them, hence the creation of free accounts in the first place. To the OP, unless you also suggest doing away with tier and literally making everything including land, free to everyone, your argument for freedom & equality is somewhat baselesss, what you can do will still be determined by what you pay for.
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Dillon Morenz
Registered User
Join date: 21 May 2006
Posts: 85
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10-17-2006 03:15
From: Jackline Hugo Economics aside, let's consider the foundational principle of SL: "Your world. Your Imagination."
This is clearly not upheld by the biased member system we have now.
Though there are many contributors to the world of SL who are not holders of the Premium Account, it is not really their world since they are forbidden from freely purchasing land. I'm sorry, but you cannot produce a petition like that and request we "put the economics aside". If I want to setup a real business in the real world, I must be prepared to invest. Why should it be any different in this one? And let's consider the marketing snapbite ("Your world. Your imagination."  a little further: If we aren't contributing to the financial upkeep of "our world", then it's not really our world at all, is it? And by the way, there are plenty of very successful creators in world who don't have premium accounts, but do have land. From: Jackline Hugo While I realize that for the Premium account, there are *other* benefits in addition to the ability to own land, I am not speaking of abolishing those benefits. There will always be those who would want those benefits. It is incorrect to say that no one will sign up, were the freedom to purchase land given to all.
There are two benefits to owning a premium account. (i) The ability to own land on the mainland. (ii) A weekly stipend. When the weekly stipend is the only benefit -- and considering it only pays for itself if you pay annually -- why on earth would anybody get a premium account? Certainly on more expensive monthly or quarterly terms? From: Jackline Hugo Though Dillon mentions the Lindex, Dillon does not consider the economic fact that a country's currency can only stagnate when it is *dependent* on that of another's.
Second Life is not an independent country. And it is absolutely dependent on the currency of the real world, otherwise it wouldn't even be here. You do realise don't you, that premium account or nay, you still have to pay tier in USDs? Why is paying between $1.38USD and $2.48USD a week for a premium account such a hardship? Ultimately, that's what I don't understand.
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Daisy Rimbaud
Registered User
Join date: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 764
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10-17-2006 03:19
From: Jackline Hugo That's, in a way, owning land through the jaws of a loanshark. To those who focus more on creating than on making money (being an artisan in SL does not promise $$$ -- consider how little they're paid per item), the lands sold by such third-party dealers will not be within affordability range. I disagree. What I pay in tier to my landlord is less than what I would pay for a premium account. Actually, I think of it as feu duty ...
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Dillon Morenz
Registered User
Join date: 21 May 2006
Posts: 85
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10-17-2006 03:22
From: Jackline Hugo That's, in a way, owning land through the jaws of a loanshark. I wonder how many sim owners will take offence at that? There are many reputable sellers of land in private sims, but rent/ownership in private sims debate aside... From: Jackline Hugo ...the lands sold by such third-party dealers will not be within affordability range. ...that is simply not true. Land in an Anshe Chung sim for example, sells at around half of mainland prices. And if you own in excess of 1024metres, the tier is cheaper than that charged by LL. If you rent from the dalliez group, the monthly fee is approx. the same as charged by Anshe Chung, only you don't even have to pay $Ls upfront for the parcel. So, more affordable.
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Fade Languish
I just build stuff...
Join date: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,760
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10-17-2006 03:33
From: CJ Carnot Free account or not, if a free account could own land they would be paying TIER to Linden Lab on it would they not ? Linden Lab will ultimately choose whichever strategy is most profitable for them, hence the creation of free accounts in the first place. I've thought for a while this (free accounts owning land) is the direction LL may take one day. They may well find that removing the psychological barrier of the premium fee may result in increased land ownership, and tier is their primary revenue stream. Historically, they've been moving in this direction, as you allude to, and I believe it's already possible to purchase estate land on a basic account. You're right, they'll choose the stategy they believe will be most profitable.
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Ordinal Malaprop
really very ordinary
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,607
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10-17-2006 03:37
1. You cannot own land without a premium account, full stop. You are always renting it from someone. No matter how nice they are, they always have arbitrary control over what you can do with it, on top of the control that LL always has. This is not land ownership, no matter how often it's claimed to be, and I will keep on saying this until I turn into a blueberry.
2. I don't see much point in distinguishing between "basic" and "premium" accounts any more to be honest, unless you're actively trying to drive people off the mainland and into renting, or you're trying to create a two-tier landowner/landuser society (in which case you're going about it an odd way, the base payment should be much higher). It's just the first starter level of tier, with a stipend thrown in.
But why can't somebody who's made L$ in-world on a basic account just cash them out to their US$ balance with LL, and then pay for a premium that way, as well as their land tier? I pay for mine that way.
Really, as far as I can see, all this is is an argument about what the first level of tier should be.
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Damanios Thetan
looking in
Join date: 6 Mar 2004
Posts: 992
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10-17-2006 03:43
As a followup on your economic ideas:
LL should try bringing in partnerships/RL deals with existing RL companies, and use the residents as the workforce to accomplish those deals.
This is a good strategy, and we see a growing number of new, and also some existing companies fill in this gap now. (Electric Sheep Company, MillionsOfUS, The Infinite Mind etc. etc.) Most of them are doing very well.
Except most of these pay their employees and contractors in RL US dollars. They realize that when expecting professional quality work, you have to respect your workforce as professionals who deserve a decent pay. This also guarantees those companies, their employees and contractors keep a professional work ethos and a healthy work relationship.
The question why LL decided to concentrate on focusing as a pure hosting company, and not a business liaison/contracting agency is not one I can answer. I think it's mostly because of the general principle that SL was founded on, which is exactly like you said: "Building a new country". This probably reflected in the decision for LL to stay as 'country builders' and maintainers, and not expand into 'business facilitators'. I assume this is a conscious decision on their part also.
All in all, I assume the focus of LL on their hosting as their primary source of income has been a conscious decision. And the consequences are clear in that case. It means that they should maintain a healthy stream of income from their hosting activities (land selling) and their subscription deals.
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Fade Languish
I just build stuff...
Join date: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,760
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10-17-2006 03:44
From: Ordinal Malaprop 1. You cannot own land without a premium account, full stop. You are always renting it from someone. No matter how nice they are, they always have arbitrary control over what you can do with it, on top of the control that LL always has. This is not land ownership, no matter how often it's claimed to be, and I will keep on saying this until I turn into a blueberry. Well the same could kind of be said of owning land on a premium account really. You don't really own it then, I think of it more as buying a license to rent some space from LL. Stop paying tier you end up with nothing. The difference is a (hopefully) more stable and less prone to arbitrary behaviour landlord (in theory).
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Usagi Musashi
UM ™®
Join date: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 6,083
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10-17-2006 03:46
From: Steve Steed NO! I pay to owne land and I am very happy to do so. I give back to LL by doing so. Premium and land owners is what helps keep SL going. With out that there maybe no SL. Free accounts do NOT help in this way hell I do not see how Free accounts do help. It takes $$ to buy new servers, pay the staff, and stuff like that. If they make it All FREE say good bye to SL, and LL it just will not work. And yes There are certainly other ways for LL to make money like RL %$#@@&^ ads all over the SL world, popups and stuff like that. But I do not thank no ones like to see this. not me I can say that. Premium all the way!! What I like to see is no more "NEW" free accounts.. It will help in a lot of ways. To do away with "NEW" free accounts. Pay to play.  here here
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Lewis Nerd
Nerd by name and nature!
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 3,431
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10-17-2006 04:01
I really don't understand the point of this.
Free accounts can pay $10 a month to own a 512 sq m plot of land, then you can pay extra if you want to own more land.
It's called a "premium account".
For Second Life to succeed, there has to be more incentives for people to pay to play, not less.
I personally would rather have 100,000 people paying, playing, and enjoying themselves, than 500,000 people leeching off the system and crashing the grid every couple of days.
It doesn't take Einstein to realise that the hundreds of thousands of NON PAYING CUSTOMERS are using bandwidth, support time, and giving Linden Lab more work - whilst people like me are paying lots of money to provide the non payers with those services.
Lewis
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Fade Languish
I just build stuff...
Join date: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,760
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10-17-2006 04:08
From: Lewis Nerd I really don't understand the point of this. Free accounts can pay $10 a month to own a 512 sq m plot of land, then you can pay extra if you want to own more land. It's called a "premium account". For Second Life to succeed, there has to be more incentives for people to pay to play, not less. I personally would rather have 100,000 people paying, playing, and enjoying themselves, than 500,000 people leeching off the system and crashing the grid every couple of days. It doesn't take Einstein to realise that the hundreds of thousands of NON PAYING CUSTOMERS are using bandwidth, support time, and giving Linden Lab more work - whilst people like me are paying lots of money to provide the non payers with those services. Lewis Tourists are a good thing in an economy. They may not be prepared to own land, but they may be prepared to spend on their entertainment in other ways, spending money in the businesses of those who do own land, which makes those businesses more viable, and more able to continue paying tier to LL.
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Lewis Nerd
Nerd by name and nature!
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 3,431
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10-17-2006 04:13
From: Fade Languish Tourists are a good thing in an economy. They may not be prepared to own land, but they may be prepared to spend on their entertainment in other ways, spending money in the businesses of those who do own land, which makes those businesses more viable, and more able to continue paying tier to LL. Yes tourists are a good thing, but they don't contribute enough. You'll also find that people cannot be 'permanent tourists', they might only be so for a couple of weeks out of a year. There's also the thought that the only people who benefit from 'tourists' are stores, *ingo games and casinos, rather than people like me who shy away from overcommercialism and try to have fun. I've put a lot of effort - and expense - into providing something for people to enjoy on my land... yet my traffic is low, for one reason and one reason only: I don't offer sex or give away money. Most of my real life holidays actually cost me a lot more money than I'd be earning during that week of work. It's how it works. Leiws
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Jessica Elytis
Goddess
Join date: 7 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,783
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10-17-2006 04:23
I agree with Lewis. I was a Basic Account for months. I did "live" in SL during that time. Mostly traveling, but for a bit, I did rent land jsut before I upgraded my account to see if I really wanted to own land. If a Resident wants to own land, they go Premium. Part of the "taxes" for owning land is paying that monthly fee to LL to help maintain the grid and all other related issues. Don't want to pay for a Premium Account? Rent. Easy enough. Any other questions? ~Jessy
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Fade Languish
I just build stuff...
Join date: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,760
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10-17-2006 04:29
From: Lewis Nerd There's also the thought that the only people who benefit from 'tourists' are stores, *ingo games and casinos, rather than people like me who shy away from overcommercialism and try to have fun. I've put a lot of effort - and expense - into providing something for people to enjoy on my land... yet my traffic is low, for one reason and one reason only: I don't offer sex or give away money. Most of my real life holidays actually cost me a lot more money than I'd be earning during that week of work. It's how it works. I don't get the connection between whether they are premium or not and visitors to your land. If you aim to provide something fun, are non-premium accounts less inclined to seek out fun? And if someone visits and has fun, as per your stated goal, have you not still benefitted from their presence even if they aren't premium?
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Jakkal Dingo
Equal Opp. Offender
Join date: 16 Feb 2005
Posts: 283
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10-17-2006 04:37
I agree that it's suicide for LL to allow land to basic accounts. Let's not forget that in order for them to do this, they have to make lots and lots of sims, cuz naturally if everyone can get land, why wouldn't they?
Sims cost money to run, maintain and other upkeep. It's not in LL's best interest to give this stuff for free, without getting anything in return. When the rest of us pay tier, we're helping to support the cost of these sims. Basic accounts would put LL into the red for certain if they'd have to make more sims for everyone to have their own piece of the virtual pie.
If they don't want to pay tier, I say, let them rent.
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CJ Carnot
Registered User
Join date: 23 Oct 2005
Posts: 433
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10-17-2006 04:41
From: Jakkal Dingo If they don't want to pay tier, I say, let them rent. No one is suggesting free land. You still pay tier, that's what pays for the land. The discussion is whether basic accounts should be ably to buy land.
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