Teen Grid suggestion

Here's an idea for the "teen grid":

Problems:
- LL will probably have to hire more people to search and destroy adult content
- adults cannot login to teen grid, and so will miss out on exploring potentially cool creative builds
- adults will not be able to purchase content from the teen grid

Solution:

Let adults wander the teen grid as undetectable "ghosts" with NO interactive abilities.

They will:
- be phantom and not be able to interact with the world, including scripts, objects, physics, or avatars
- not be able to even be able see the avatars, their attachments, or hear/read their sounds/chat (to preserve privacy) or be able to tell in any way that an avatar is present
- be completely undetectable by the teen residents (will not be able to talk to or play sounds or affect the residents in any way or give any indication of their presence)
- be able to see rezzed content
- be able to AR mature content
- be able to buy things which are set For Sale (not vendors though obviously as those would require interaction)

However, we still should recieve object updates. For example, if there is a game of soccer going on, we would just see a ball which would appear to be randomly moving around, without any players.

Not only would we be able to help keep the world PG by finding and reporting mature content, but just the knowledge that we can see everything that's built there may be enough to keep the teen residents from even attempting to build mature content.

I know this kinda sounds spooky, hence "ghost" seems like a good term, but it seems worthy of discussion at least.

I think initially there may seem to be some sort of privacy issues, but when you think about it, it won't really be any different from exploring a sim with no residents currently in it.

It is a neat idea, but-

There seems to be an attitude going around that people (yes, *people*) under the age of 18 do not deserve the same kind of opportunities and respect that adults do.

Fortunately, capitalism has forced LL to give them the respect they do deserve.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of SLers who still think of these people as second class citizens. To further that sentiment, I think giving the ability to 'monitor' (read: spy) on these new citizens is not just a bad idea, but a dangerous philosophy.

I think the ghost is a kind of okay idea, but it sort of removes their privacy... on the other hand, what about the parents of the kids, who want to interact with their son/daughter's creations? Slow down, LL, give us a map on how you plan on dealing with these issues...

Did you read the entire text or gloss over it and reply?

I specifically addressed privacy, and even readdressed it in the last paragraph in anticipation of these comments. In my proposal, it is completely impossible for teen and adult avatars to detect one another by any means. This moots any concerns for privacy. If you disagree, please say how you disagree with this assertion.

Dae, the problem of parents wanting to interact with their kid's creations is not addressed as a problem in this thread and incidently is not resolved by my solution. That is a side issue that can be discussed in another thread if necessary, however.

People under the age of 18 do NOT get the same kind of opportunities and respect that adults do....in real life.

Under 18's cannot vote, buy cigarettes, buy alcohol (if you're under 21), go into bars....

Capitalism might be the driving force behind LL allowing a 13-17 y/o grid - but brother, I'll tell ya, its not because they figured its time to show them respect. They figured its time to part the teenies from their parent's money. That's not respect, that's marketing to a demographic. Respect has nothing to do with it.

And - since you mentioned it - children under 18 ARE second class citizens. You cannot vote. You cannot drive (without parental supervision and advanced classes). You are officially the ward of your parents. Yeah, it bites. Good news is, everyone grows out of this category eventually and becomes full fledged first class citizens - that pay taxes, have mortgages, pay their own bills, and have little second class citizens of their own

Not to rant on ya Blaze, but there are valid reasons behind everyone freaking out over the addition of under-18s to SL - from a legal standpoint, and from an enjoyment standpoint. Like the bar scenario. Bars are for adults. I don't want kids in the bar when I go there to have a good time with other adults. Same with SL.


Anyway back on topic......I got nothing against ghosting out and checking out the youngin's creations. The "spying" thing is moot. There is no real privacy in SL right now as it stands.

pri·va·cy (prv-s) KEY

NOUN:


The quality or condition of being secluded from the presence or view of others.

Children have certain restrictions put upon them by the law, but then so do you.

For example, you have to pay taxes and you are not protected against adult criminal prosecution - children are.

People under 18 have rights, different rights, but rights none the less. And they most definitely have a right to privacy.

Why would you(we) need to be a part of this?


I think an SL for kids is a great idea. I think it will be full of creativity and colors. I think they will have a hell of a fun time shooting each other. Who knows, they really cant behave any worse than how I have seen us adults behave.

They dont want us there as much as we dont want them in the mainland grid.



fen-

The teen avatars DO have privacy in this proposal. They cannot be "viewed" by the adult "ghosts". And they do not experience any relevant effects of the "presence" of an adult avatar any more than you experience my presence when I vist your land while you're offline.

PS: Please stay on the thread topic -- if you want to discuss rights and respect of minors in comparison with adults, that's great, but please spawn a new thread.

You're asking a question that I've already answered. Please feel free to address these two answers to your question:

- adults cannot login to teen grid, and so will miss out on exploring potentially cool creative builds
- adults will not be able to purchase content from the teen grid

We aren't really *there* though. We're looking at what they made, possibly with the option to buy a copy and make them some money. Why would they not want that?

Given the number of times I've seen griefers in SL or the inane immaturity of people on these forums, I have to admit I find it suprising that someone thinks the SL community is well suited to be monitoring anything.

The world as it is, our "adult" world is so big now, there are enough cool creative builds to find that we are missing out of already.

And I dont think they will need us to "make them some money", they are kids, kids are the most ingenious crowd around. They will do just fine on their own.

Like I said before, they dont want us there, trust me on this one. How many times has your 15yr old invited you into his/her room to play with their little friends?

You said that "adults will not be able to purchase content from the teen grid" and then say "possibly with the option to buy a copy and make them some money". That seems like quite the contradiction, which makes me question motives here, which is even more of a reason to keep these worlds separated.

Let them have a piece of SL for themselves, we dont need it, we have a giant portion already.

Dont worry tho, I imagine there will be a host of these kid user websites with pictures and blogs and items for sale about a week after the floodgates open.

fen-

I guess I'm just naturally curious and like to explore something different. *shrug*

You keep saying they don't want us there? I keep saying we aren't really even there. It wouldn't be much different than walking into a museum full of replicas.

You created an example where a 15 year old kid would not welcome an aged "unhip" parent, but why can't an 18 year old go back and check out what his year-or-two younger buddies have built in the past year once he was "pushed" to the adult grid?

Why can't the curious among us take a stroll around and see if younger minds can build something new, interesting, and different from the strip-club-casino-mall wasteland that plagues our grid?

It can't do any harm to explore their builds. If you disagree, please state an example.

I think it is a little creepy. I don't think it would be proper. Let the liaisons deal with non-PG content in PG sims.

Would you allow them to be ghosts in our PG sims? It would only be fair, wouldn't it?

Suddenly this idea of having two grids "totally separate" is starting to sound like the way Isla Nublar was "isolated" in the Jurassic Park series... in the book, IIRC, some velociraptors managed to get on a ship and wound up in South America.

I like your idea Kex. It makes a lot of sense to me. I agree, it would be cool to JUST be able see what the teens create in their SL grid. I feel like I'd be missing out if I couldn't see what they build. I'm sure the teens would come up with a lot of imaginative stuff.

There is no reason why normal SL accounts should not be able to link into the younger server. If you bind the two toger (obvously not allowing minros into the original SL system) you will be able to bolster the economy for the SL system overall.

PLUS there is no reason that content should not be transferable from server (minus inapropreate content)

Its as simple as this:
Child accounts only have acess to the SL Minors Dimension (if thats what you wanna call it)
Adults have acess to both, simply by having a drop down box or something and being able to switch between the Main and Youth SL Dimensions.

Drop the ghoast idea, it wont happen, period. I gaurentee it.

On a final note, you cannot permit minors to enter the Main Dimension becuase even though a sim might be marked PG, every one knows that its just that easy to bring something "not so apropreate" into the sim.

Adult accounts can acces both, Minors can only access the Minor system.

Interesting Idea Kex, but If I was a minor I'd be kinda anoyed if adults could come and see my stuff but I couldn't see theirs. Maybe that's just me tho. Other than that I think your idea is good for a number of reasons.

We haven't yet heard of LL's plans to regulate the TeenSL, but I am guessing either uploads will need to be somehow "approved" or that LL will need alot more Liasons to enforce and remove mature content (as they are all so busy as it is without TeenSL). Probably both as it's not hard to create mature content with prims, and well if you tell a kid (or some adults) that they can't have/do something it just makes them want to do it more. At least once.

Parents will be able to see what their kids have made, which brings great pride to both parties. Of course snapshots will still be possible but, Sl is 3d so a 2d snapshot never does any SL creation true justice.

As for the Creep factor I don't think it's creepy if you don't know that the person is there. Sure kids would know there's a possibility that someone could be looking at their prims but if they can't listen to conversations or see avatars then is their privacy really being invaded? I mean we can just walk onto anyone's land in SL now (unless you are banned) and look at their prims. Is it all that different?

Adults will not be able to access the minors' grid. This is to protect the minors from jerks, creeps, hucksters, and JM.

I love how everyones all uppity about minors. I've known plenty of younger kids who are much more mature then most of the adults in SL -- and were able to assemble more coherent sentences.

Now, I can understand the Linden's interest in keeping minors out. This is more a legality issue. Can't legally allow a bunch of kids to run around when theirs smut laying about... But lets be honest. It's not like kids don't get access to pornography. I've been finding porn on the internet since I was 14(Myself being 21 now). I might not be a parent yet, but I also think I'd allow say... a 16 son or daughter to have access to SL -- Especially if they, like my self, could be discrete enough to not get caught and could make use of the artistic possibilities.

I think a lot of adults don't want to think of their own kind as the type of morons that run around loling about Jessie and griefing. But often enough they are.



Something about that cracks me up. As if these minors are a bunch of innocent little virgin kittens

Who?

This from the same person who is for placing player dispute resolution in the hands of players. Sigh. And you wonder why you take so much heat in these forums. I suppose you're playing the victim after you make judgemental, stereotypical, self-conflicted posts. The forum regulars are a very tiny segment of the whole of SL residents. Most tend to be outspoken, opinionated and, yes, even terse and dismissive at times. By the tone of your posts it seems as though you are very disillusioned with SL, especially the forums, so why do you torture yourself?

You apparently do not understand what a griefer is. Please stop using that word so much. Somebody who uses bawdy language, or reacts passionately to sensitive subjects does not a griefer make.

As for the in-world griefing I am sorry to hear you have been exposed to that. I have as well and it is very aggravating, however, I do not think it is rampant by any standard, nor does it portray SL as a griefer's haven.

Now to the subject at hand.

I think in theory its a neat idea, I wouldn't mind checking out what they create as well, however, some folks would scream bloody murder over such possibilities because of issues like privacy for one, as we have seen in some posts above. I am not sure that it would be worth the aggravation and threads and posts by people pissed off royally. I also think that means more coding for LL- something a lot of folks who are already pissed off about them even creating a kid grid (because of the existing bugs and shortcomings of the main grid) probably wouldn't take kindly to.

Who will decide what's appropriate? How will 1000s of items flowing inward in 18+ yr. old SLer's inventories be monitored? It's basically impossible, and that is probably one of the reasons they are making it a completely separate grid.

Yes your idea sounds great. I have a 13 year old brother who always bugs me to fly around Second Life whenever he comes over to my place. If this works he can get his own account and leave me alone

Yah the mature content thing would be a problem. The lindens could like check everything before it is uploaded, created ect. but it would take way too much time and LL would need to get a lot more Lindens.

well this wasnt what i had in mind but what the hell it works. listen 13-17 have thereown grid<yay> that emans 13-17 have can now <legally> have ther own account on SL. No we dont want to go there no we dont want them coming here <for some odd reason thats the vibe ive been geting from everyone.> my suggestion is if you want to go to the kiddy grid then amek yoru own account in Kidde SL. but one thing bothers me..why are we so oposed to leting say a 17 year old on to SL, as apposed to a imature jack ass 29 year old who thinks push scripts in sandboxs is fun? honestly think for a seocnd here when you turn 18 you dotn suddenly chang efrom an imature back talking kid to a upstanding citizen. ive said it before and il lsay it again soem teens are alot more mature than adults. its a fact of life. i have NO IDEA wer eim going with this post but the words go together right....so thats good enough for me.<its midnight ehre my brain is shuting down> but it dosent matter anymore does it? LL is making a new game so to speak that just happens to look like second life. theres ana ge limit that starts at 13 and ends at 17. so you now leave it be. if you relaly want to go there make an account there and pretend your 17 and under. hel lthats wha tsome people do to get on here.

No! I'm shocked. I simply cannot believe that there are minors masquerading as adults here in SL. How could they have evaded our scrutiny? They must be expert thespians...

I think this attempt to have separate grids is destined to fail from the start. With the amount of difficulty which the Lindens have had in keeping minors out of this grid, I simply don't understand how they're going to be able to keep adults out. Children don't have any easily verifiable form of ID.