Vote to prevent grid-wide attacks like this one.

Frustrated by the recent attack? Do something about it, vote for a no-outside-push parcel flag.

If this flag were present, residents would have been able to take action against this grid-wide attack. Instead we were orbited and could not delete the self-replicating objects or set our land no-create to stem their spread.

We already have 100+ votes, 400 more and LL must acknowledge this as the will of the community.

http://secondlife.com/vote/index.php?get_id=1263

I turned off scripts and build, and returned the objects in Abbotts well after being pushed skyward. Altitude does not cut you off from control of the parcel.

There are, however a bajillion other good reasons to be able to turn off "outside push" on your parcel.

Jillian,

You must have been more lucky than I was, I wasn't able to do anything after being pushed. Even wearing a jetpack and getting down to 300 meters, the ground was solid black and my client was very messed up.

Also while this particular push was straight up, there's nothing stopping the next Jew Stein from making it push you off to the side a few hundred meters too, making parcel control impossible.

And as you said, this is good for many other reasons too.

over a year ago, there was a thread discussing how to deal with grid wide attacks. All of the suggestions in it were... ignored. My sympathies for SL users, but none for LL.

Aside from this, what they really need to do is fine griefers for incidents like this. It would be perfectly justified, since the griefer is causing damages both to LL and the SL residents by these actions, and suspending accounts doesn't seem to be enough. So they need to just charge them $100 or so for every incident like this (amount based on severity).

I personally think this would be a better deterrent.

I totally want to be able to turn off push on any land i own or work in. The function is completely useless unless you own a trampoline, and i don't cuz i hate llPushObject. This script function i consider to be a exploit in the havok system that LL chooses not to patch for god knows why. I will vote for this when i have a free vote point. :/ Right now i got 3 other llPushObject votes im in too.

Oh and BTW i noticed once before i got logged out, that when i tried to fly, i kept going UP slowly and had to press PAGE DOWN a lot. But when i wasnt flying i was ok. And no i don't use a flight script.

I've noticed this as well too. It's a fairly new bug--er, "undocumented feature."

I've been fighting this in my flight script. I haven't figured out the right combinations to keep it from happening without making you feel like you're glued to the sky.

You don't need to be on the ground to access your land functions. Click the title of the land at the top of your screen and it will open the land menu up.

We are at 240 votes.

Just about half way to the magic 500 votes mark. Dig deep! Tell your friends! Create 30 alts! Now that dwell is gone you can take votes off proposals to get rid of dwell.

Thanks for the tip. Point still remains we could have just as easily been pushed a little to the side, rendering this technique useless.

Please. "Fixing" the script system is not going to solve the problem of self-replicating objects hindering the grid.

The only cohesive solution would be to split the main grid into smaller units, thus being able to compartmentalize the issue. Because the Lindens do not wish to do this, the problem will continue.


....

Though I do admit, more options for parcels are good.

This isn't necessarily "Fixing" the scripting system... What he/she (Sorry didn't pay attention before posting) is proposing is an option to turn scripted push off anything that doesn't belong to you or anyone in your group... I mean that's a feasible option... It would be a click away and whether they were able to get things into your land or not it would just stop pushing when it got there... Granted I would like to see an outside script parcel option too... Cutting off all scripts causes havok (pun) when you own alot of scripted objects... But cutting off scripts not owned by you or your group would be viable to a lesser extent... Ok so my rant is over...

Heratiki

EDIT: Dadgummit Jeffrey you edited yours making mine point at no one... LOL.. So I tried to correct mine... I see now that you were aiming at a different post... So I humbly drop out...

Heh heh. Sorry about that. If you nab one of my posts just after I write it (check the timestamp), expect 2-4 edits, on average.

What are the legitimate uses for the push command? I'm assuming it can't just be removed from the scripting language, or restricted to small distances or something?

Legitimate uses:
* Human cannons
* Trampolines
* Non contact elevators (Just lifts you up)

You wouldn't believe how open push is to abuse. With the script inside my antiorbit thing I can push you 22,500 times a second, every one at maximum power from anywhere inside the same sim. With a little modification I could get 510,000 times a second but I doubt the simulator would even process a tenth of those.

Easiest solution would be to fix the energy exploits and cap maximum velocity of an AV at something like 200m/s. A height ceiling would make sense too as the client gets very confused when you go too high and there's no real reason to ever go above 2000M. Prims can only go up to 768M and flying a vehicle beyond that is pretty pointless. The only legitimate use I can think of is rockets.

Any kind of gravity effects. I have gravity elevators, an avatar cannon for skydiving, and there's a gravity gun I've used on occasion.

Plus I use it for space travel. I've launched myself over two billion meters.

that would kill my skydiving launcher.
That would also kill my skydiving launcher.
Prims can go to the same 4096 limit as vehicles, they just have to use physical movement over 768.
I tend to fly either well over 768 for long fast journeys, or nap-of-land.
High altitude skydiving. The ONLY way to get over 4096 meters without using an attachment is push.

I was going to vote for the feature untill the negative comments to llpush. Just because llpush may be a convient way to grief its not the only way. I could list a bunch of other ways(but I wont). You can do alot of things(some even bad) in SL because of things like llpush and I won't be apart of removing features.
The bad people are whats wrong not llpush.

If someone makes a more defined version of this ill add my points to it. (also 30m is'nt high enough, I prefer to work in the sky where the fps is faster )

-- And yes, I got attacked too(200m up!)

This is my first post, and it pains me that it has to be a rant.

I'm new around SL and already I've been plagued by these push scripts. The three legitimate uses you mention all have one thing in common: target's consent.

(@Argent Stonecutter All your uses also have target's consent.)


It's not a simple matter of capping velocity because physical objects already have a cap of 250 m/s. I have control systems that can almost lock my stuff in position while I'm testing and they can easily recover from 250 m/s movement. But it's really irritating when I see my testbeds do rubber-band motion when in the presence of a pusher.

BUT

Having tested maximum power pushes on myself (with just a single-shot pusher) the main problem is revealed: The velocity evaluators of the sim do NOT register your velocity at the right time. With luck a push will slip through and actually "teleport" you to some considerable distance before the velocity detectors sense your velocity and cap it.

One solution regarding capping is to have the velocity capping done earlier before ANY position update.

I really hate those pushers. We don't even need them for rockets because the impulse functions do the job. The only use I have for llPushObject is to combine linear and rotational impulses in a single instruction (that saves time). But even then, that application does not require it being able to hit anyone.

llPushObject NEEDS some changes. YES I agree that the energy has to be managed. Perhaps apply the energy drain/recovery rates to all kinds of prims and probably even put a Push value cap or penalties on non-physical prims using Push. It's too easy for someone to leave an invisible object in the Sandbox to pester newbs like me who are just minding our own business, these pushers are pushing a lot of objects and their energy never abates.

I'd also be happy if someone will find a working counter to this at the physical level. I know that turning physics off on an object and sitting on a non-physical object work ... but that's not the kind of solution I'm happy with, not with the velo checking not happening at a timely point. I've made anchor scripts already and was given 2 other anchoring type scripts but they all don't work well because of the imperfect velocity capping.

Explicitly requiring someone to accept a dialong before they can be pushed would completely kill the 500 meter tall "avatar railgun" that delivers people to my store in LostFurest dAlliez... you'd have to make 50 approvals, every two or three seconds, and if you didn't click "yes" in time you'd get dropped. Anything that requires handoff (basically, anything doing precision movement past sensor range) will break with an "explicit consent" mechanism.
That's not a "problem", that's a "feature". I use this extensively... without greifing.
We need them for gravity effects. You can't make people wear an object or "approve" gravity effects.

And... why do some people seem to get pushed like every other day, and I've been pushed without my consent like three times since I've been in SL?

...I can field this one...

When I'm pushed, it's usually when I'm walking up to the watermellon cannon carrying newbie. In fact, one of my friends accidentally threw me two sims the other day by accident, because he whipped out a watermellon launcher and didn't know what it was.

He apologised profusely.

This happens a lot on the ground, so I build very high in the air instead, which saves me from all those newbies wandering into sandboxes and shooting the place up.

Some people stay in private areas with people they know. Some people explore and meet new people. Some of the new people you meet will be clueless. That's really the situation in which you are likely to get shot at, in a sandbox, or on the ground, where newbies can wander past and ask themselves, 'Is player killing allowed in this game?'

...I also hear farting noises almost constantly, but farting noises don't make my client crash, which is the real issue, in my mind.

I use a lot of teleports. My platform is over 600 meters in the air and I have no trouble at all with a single consentual ride up or down. I can't say that I've played much with anti-gravity up there, because there's no reason why people can't just turn on 'fly' and pretend to float (we have parties in space).

llPushObject has only been useful to me in the case of avatars getting stuck in furniture or in vehicles. Like my teleports and anti-gravity parties, this can be corrected either by a single 'click here to get unstuck' or just re-designing the furniture.

This is certainly not a personal attack on anybody. I agree that removing features sucks.

However, I do a lot of scripting. I use a lot of jet packs. I use a lot of vehicles. I do a lot of things in space. I have always found a more efficient way to script than using llPushObject. As far as I can tell, it is completely useless, and the fact that I can be knocked two sims away and forced to re-log just because I walked into a sandbox sounds more like a bug than a feature to me.

I'm pretty sure we can do without the feature altogether.

Finally, removing the feature altogether is not what is being proposed. What's being proposed is turning off that feature's effects on a plot to plot basis. That allows land owners that do not use anti-gravity scripts to turn off llPushObject effects, while land owners that do use llPushObject scripts can leave it on.

That's really a happy compromise in my mind.

P.S. - Lindens: Please don't cap altitude below 4096 meters? Me and my friends do a lot of sky diving and I almost always fly spacecraft above 2000 meters. That would take a lot of the fun out of the game for me.

[1] There are other approaches that don't require constant approval and can get the job done.

[2] Well you are certainly not one of the problems. The point is griefers do use it, and use it extensively.

[3] Because some of us have not gotten our own land yet and use the sandboxes most of the time. I'm still learning, developing stuff, and feeling my way around. So I'm not yet ready to get a more permanent residence.

Allowing landowners to disable third-party push on their land is one of them. And the one I have suggested in the past.
And if they can't do it, they'll do something else, something that'll make some people's clients crash if they can...
1. I imagine most sandboxes would be set with third-party-push disabled, like most sandboxes are now set with damage disabled.

2. I joined SL getting on for a year ago now, and didn't get my own land until December, and I usually hung around places that people claim are griefer magnets, and I've had about three incidents of hostile push against me in that time.

3rd party push is definitely not disabled in sandboxes.