Policy Change: Crack down on theives

Theives ruin the SL experience...and I just had a big, heaping plate of example handed to me. My group was working on making a smaller group consisting of the original four owners of the groupland and were planning on transferring the land to a second smaller group for the purpose of rentals or reselling the land and only the original four benefiting from this.

These were our first lands...and it had taken us forever just to figure out how to put them group owned and merge them. But we were fuddling through the transfer from one group to the other when...boom...two people pop in and hit buy land before we can even blink...one, of course, was a little late and TP'ed off...the first, however, started laughing at us and offered to sell it back for 20000...then 25000...THEN kicked us off the land and set the price at 40000.

Now...consider for a moment the fisrt thing...that theiving is wrong. Saying it doesn't apply because its a virtual world WOULD be a good standing...BUT...

Land values are a measurable thing...and Linden is not only easily converted to USD, but actively ENCOURAGED to do so by the Lindens...even to the point of the Lindens throttling down in game incomes to try and stabalize the USD to L$ ratio...so now we're talking more tangible and REAL theivery here. This applies not only to land, but paying people and them not giving you what you paid for...and many other probable scams out there. The current land grab scam wouldn't have even been possible without the new Point to Point teleporting that so many that owned land near telehubs found issue with.

Now my group is out the land, out our firstlands...and this person is sitting on a land he's selling for 40000...at current exchange rates, that gets pretty close to $150 US that he's trying to make off what he's ripped us out of...not to mention that we'll have to dig up L of our own if we want a chance to get any other land now.

People like this need to be stopped...and to be honest...I could be wrong...but I don't think it's legal for Lindens to have a 'hands off' approach on this issue with the currency going to USD as it is.

In the perfect world, sure.


In reality, the only way further "crack down on thieves" in general is going to happen is if a) Linden Lab hires a huge police squad or b) they empower sub-admins to do the job for them.

Good example of this, no matter how you view her policies, is Anshe. She has the power to *yoink!* terminate rental land I believe, since it's her batch of sims. Raise that in scope and... oops! Second Life's not there just yet.



On a more specific note, the group land deal is a cause of major dissent, so you're not alone in wanting to see that fixed. It's one of those "low priority" problems that the Lindens haven't gotten around to but major-league piss people off when they go wrong.

Suffice it, the only answer there is to simply not use it. Which isn't what you should have to do. Good luck getting the situation resolved.

Historically, Liaisons have been helpful in accidental land transfers, sales, releases, etc. even after the fact. I'd explain the situation clearly and calmly to Live Help and you may get your parcel returned to you. Good luck.

I attempted to do that last night and was told quite plainly by the Linden that answered that while they hated that the person had done this, there was nothing they would do about it. I will try again. An Abuse Report was filed against this person, so hopefully action will be taken against them...otherwise, this person is just being encouraged to just continue this type of thing.

The truly disturbing thing is...it was not just one person that popped in...there were multiples...so the rip-offs KNOW about this and are quite willing and happy to exploit this.

Bummer, sorry to hear that. I'm beginning to wonder what LL thinks their job is any longer.

Even though you misused the land selling tools (always set a 'sell to' name first, then set the land for sale), you could get a ball rolling here. So, if you want to start the process of getting LL to change their policy, you could sue the accused thief - not LL. You would be able to subpoena LL for the name of the individual (though, they could play like Google and withhold, in which case you would then file suit against LL).

In your case, you could argue that you never intended for the land to be openly sold. That you have proof (chat logs from LL via subpoena) of your intent to transfer the land to your friend. In this event, the theft would be much like a person grabbing your car key middair, as you toss them to a friend - then trying to sell your car back to you. For good measure, add the extortion bit.

What irks me most is that Linden Labs offers no direct way to transfer land and then turns arround and claims that it "cant do anything because no hack happend"

I will monitor this very closly and should LL not bother to crack down on major (we are talking here about sums you get in RL serious toruble stealing them) theft i will quitly remove myself from SL, i am running an Isle and the risk of doing that in someway economical terms (i aim at coming out even) is way to high as long Linden Labs shrugs at robbery.

If they want a economy they have to enshure safety of property because there is no way i can defend my property by myself as soon leaks like landtransfer are not covered by software or LindenLabs, it is not as if i could grab a gun and ask stolen property back at gunpoint.

RL i would be pretty tied up too for the simple reason i am not living in the US so every theft i would try to bring to court would mean i loose money for obvious reasons.

I considerd to expand and i am earning my cash the honest way (we talk about 4 to 5 hours work every day) and i will not do that for naught because Linden Labs sees no point in fighting theft.

Regarding me SL is not better than any third world corrupt warlord ruled country until this is solved in a way wich encourages folks to stay honest.

Given what i invest in work and money into SL i expect to know that this cant be taken by illegal means of me without any chance to get it back.

hmm....in the old days the little mother would be hunted down and removed......preferably forcefully........but LL HAS to know there are some who seem to know the instant...and I mean to the second, that land suddenly becomes "available", it happens way too much and I have spoken to a whole lot of members who have made it clear they have complained...not sure if these member stalkers use a hack (which it most likely is), or "someone" (just who would have this info that fast????) is feeding the info to the little sacks of flotsam to further their terrorism and assault on the sensibilities of members.
ultimately I would say in LL`s best interest...to add alternatives into the ability to transfer land as well as place a time delay into the process whereby the land owner can change their mind and the land transfer and the transfer of any money involved would be reversed....and it would be during this delay that admin can step in and assist.
Really though...EVERYTHING should be explained up front...up to and including things like this and that the existance of butt plugs like the little toolboxes that seem to instantly show up and steal from honest members truly exist and all members absolutely have to be fearful at all times while residing within secondlife because there is no protection for them.
Ask around...many have had the same experience.....call this one more log for the fire of exodus...it may happen or not....but the disgust at the seemingly helpless admin grows daily with every one of these and other incidents.
When a land transfer is called a mistake..especially by a group of people and those people provide an explaination of how they were stalked and intruded upon so that the transfer could take place.....where is the risk to the admin to reverse it???????
Bet if LL dug deep enough on an avie accused of this behaviour...their name..or their ip...some identifying tag, would show up again and again from other complaints.
The ball is in LL`s court, let`s see if they care enough to at least shine us on with an excuse about this issue......or more in favor of the membership and the victims of this land terrorism.....actually help and stop this issue .

I doubt it, so faar no reply on the Abuse report beside the automatic reply.

One thing is shure, i will always enshure that i cover myself regarding investments into SL.

I do not understand how a companie can allow only the hint of this action taking place when the whole idea depends on players/visitors invesitng and building the content self.

I was contemplating a second Isle sim but as things are that would be a stupid idea.

Don't get a private island. It is pointless to reward LL for such horrible customer support.

Sadly i have already a Isle, otherwise i could simply close down and leave, but as things are i have to stay or lose quite a lot of money.

This simply isn't true. In the about land dialog box, you are able to set up the land so that it can only be sold/purcahsed by a specific user. I have transferred land from one group to another using this method. I would first set myself as the intended buyer in the about land dialog, then set the price to 0L, then and only then check the For Sale box. I would remove my land contribution from the original group, purchase the land for 0L, then deed it to the new group, with contribution. I understand your frustration in what happened, but the whole situation could have, and should have, been avoided by using the tools that are in place.

McW

I think the land transfer tools work alright, as long as they are used correctly. I have bought, sold, divided, joined and tranfered land for over a year without a problem.

LL could provide a tutorial for new users though. I accidentlly abandon land early on, thinking I would get a refund.

Sorry about your loss.

This is a lot of steps for something few of us do regulary, not to talk about more than maybe 2 times per year.
Fail in one step and you can easily have the thieves on your plot.
why not simply a "Transfer land to:" option and be done with it?

The same thing happened to a friend of mine last night, and the Linden response was the same (probably the same guy). I enlsited the help of my friends and I'm sure this guy had 100's of IM's in a short period of time. Within 1/2 hour, he decided to do the right thing.

I happened to own land on 4 sides of his lot and was walling it in with signs that were not too nice, warning everyone that the land between the signs was owned by a SCOUNDREL (without naming names), and that anyone who bought that land would NOT enjoy living next to me. That was just the start of my campaign had he not done right by my friend.

I think the Lindens are copping out on this one. They should and certainly CAN step in with situations like this. If people are going to leave over this kind of stuff, who would they rather have leave? Those who made an honest mistake, or the scumbag scoundrels who make a bad name for SL. I should hope the latter.

I'm sorry but I have to just shake my head at some of these posts. I mean calling somebody a "scoundrel" while at the same time resorting to griefer tactics seems rather hypocritical to me. While I do sympathize with those that have lost land due to user error, at the end of the day, it is user error. The tools are in place to transfer land safely, people just need to learn how to use them. Instead of focusing on yet more development, which will most likely introduce new bugs into the system, why not focus on educating users on how to properly use the land tools. The root of the problem is people attempting to do something before they understand the tools that they need to use to do it. I'm rather tired of everyone bad mouthing LL over their stance on things, when it was the land owners fault they lost their land. None of you would buy a car, leave the doors unlocked with the keys in it, so a friend could pick it up, then demand that the car dealership returns your car to you when it's stolen, would you? Like I said, I can understand being upset over losing land, and I do sympathize, but really people, take responsibility for your actions, and the fact that it was your misunderstanding of the land tools available that caused the situation in the first place.

McW

I have to just shake my head at some of the posts. Calling someone a "scoundrel" while at the same time resorting to griefer tactics seems rather hypocritical to me. I'm tired of all the threads that get started just to bad mouth LL's position on land, when it was user error on the original land owner's part that caused the situation in the first place. Instead of developing yet another feature, which would most likely introduce new bugs, why not focus on educating users on how to properly use the land tools that are available. Everyone could help educate their friends on how to properly use the land tools, and people should try to learn them before transferring land. None of you would leave your car unlocked with the keys in it, so a friend could pick it up, then demand that the car dealership returns your car to you when it's stolen, would you? People need to take responsibility for their mistakes, and while I feel bad for those that lose land because they don't understand the tools, it still remains their fault, for trying to transfer land without understanding how to do it first. Instead of shifting the blame on LL, or those that do drop in and grab the land, step back, and admit, that it was in fact your lack of understanding of the tools, that caused the situation in the first place.

Rik

Au contrairie: Linden Lab could hire someone who has 0.498 of a clue about user interface design.

When you find that your customers are making the same damn error over and over and over again, you can blame the customer for being too stupid to use you interface properly, or you can blame your engineers for being too stupid to make something that doesn't lead people to make the same costly error over and over again.

Linden Lab prefers the first choice because they think it a) enhances the sense of risk and danger in an otherwise dull game or b) because they have no idea what they are doing in UIs and are incapable of noticing trends of avoidable player error.

Remember, these are the folks who brought you the llDialog() scrolling panel of push buttons. Which do you think is the more likely explanation?

I will call a scoundrel a scoundrel. Buying land cheap is one thing. Taking advantage of a new user who just spent over $100 in cold hard cash and whose intentions were to transfer to a friend is unethical, and appalling. The person in the incident I cited has done so repeatedly and worse. As for griefer tactics, I haven't griefed anyone. If a friend of mine gets f***ed by a scoundrel, it is my obligation to alert my friends so that it doesn't happen to them.

The fact that that it happens over & over & over is an indication that something needs to be fixed.

With over 100,000 avatars, which I'm guessing means there is at least 15,000 unique users, and considering there is maybe a handful of these wonderful threads a year, I wouldn't say that it's a rampant problem that takes place "over and over and over" again, like you suggest. Again, my point is, there are plenty of other things that LL could be focusing on, instead of redoing the UI to hand hold the handful of players that don't take the time to figure out the tools first. While I understand designing to a least common denominator, at some point, you just have to stop idiot proofing the system, and accept that a certain number of users will still make mistakes from time to time. While the scrolling dialogs is a pain, the dialogs still function, but that's okay, exaggerate that one too. The thing I find interesting, is for the amount of complaining, a tiny subset of players do about LL, they remain in game. If you really don't like it that much, and think that LL is that inept, why continue to spend money on their system? I personally think that people just like to complain, and refuse to take any responsibility for their own actions and mistakes.


I'd say that sounds like griefer tactics to me. Not only did you wall in the person who bought the land, but fully intended to make the person who bought it in the future uncomfortable. And in your own words, that was just the beginning of what you were about to do. But that's okay, go ahead and rationalize acting like a moron, just because you felt like somebody else was doing the same. I'm sorry but two wrongs don't make a right. Again, at the end of the day, the whole situation could have been avoided, if the original land owner used the tools available correctly.

Rik

LL needs to get you're land back. Call them on the phone, Please let us know what happens.

LL has already taken the stance that they will not intervene when mistakes are made while transferring land. Like or hate it, it is the users fault the land was available for purchase in the first place, and due to it being user error, LL has no obligation of stepping in whatsoever. It has always been their policy to not get involved in these situations. Hopefully this thread, and the others like it will help to provide a word of caution to those looking to transfer land. They really need to take the time to learn how to use the tools properly, and if they aren't sure, ask someone. As I've said before, this entire situation, and others like it, could be avoided if people, would slow down, and user the tools correctly.

Rik

It wasn't my land, it was a friend of mines. And she got it back, within 1/2 hour. The person in question has been known to screw people before. I sent an IM to my calling card list. The perpetrator was bombarded with IM's requesting that he consider doingthe right thing or face the consequences. He did. In the end I thanked him for doing the right thing.

Actually, I thought it was quite effective and would encourage others to do the same under similar circumstances.

I notice that there's now a 1.9 forum in feature feedback. I hope to hell that LL has woken up and realised that adding things is no good if features like group-land and even just the basics of performance are still dragging their feet.
1.9 had better be a bug-squash/improvement version because adding new things and allowing existing things to suffer will hurt the game.

I've had a similar experience with group-land and it's really horrible, it's one of the most unintuitively designed systems I've ever seen, half the options make no sense, or don't work as expected. I still don't know how I'm supposed to go about removing land-credits from a group if I need to.

Besides that is the land system, why the hell do split/joined parcels use the lowest price for each? Sometimes the toggle to 'for sale' as well which is a massive oversight as it is as you say, a commodity!

Our group had a similar thieving experience during our first days on SL. We are attempting to subdivide our land. Inadvertantly, my group partner set the land to sell at 10 while he was trying to raise tier fees on the sl web site and figure the whole process out. While he was there, someone came in and swooped up our 2500 of land for 10L. When we attempted to tell this person that an error was made, he also laughed at us and told us he searched nignt and day for fools like us and that it was our loss. Linden was not help in this matter. We too were booted, and the buyer would not even let us save our building. He sent it all back. While this is a very disparaging experience, I do need to comment that this is NOT the norm, and that most encounters have been honest, helpful, and fun.