Dump Dwell, Dump Ratings

Revolutionary Kitty is riled up!

No more socialite centered "features".

I don't get ahead in life by having my friends sit on my couch, or telling me, via $3 check boxes, that I'm pretty and deserve free money, just as long as I "return the favor".

I get ahead (well not much ahead irl) by DOING things. If people like what I'm doing, I get paid for my efforts. I stopped getting allowance when I was around 10, when dad said "Boy, if you want money you have to do such-and-such chore, or paint the house, or build me an airplane that works and isn't a repainted Ben original.
Why do I get allowance in SL for just existing (ok I can understand a tiny stipend, equal across the board to everyone with NO external influences).

Ratings == STOOPID
Dwell == Almost as stoopid as ratings.

I want HERMIT privs. Gimme stuff cuz I'm the best damn hermit in SL and never attend socialite rating parties. I DESERVE it, just as much as "they" deserve their ratings.

Some noob came by my hermitage and laughed at Ironchef and me because our stipend is pathetically low. He makes well over 2x what we make per week (for free money that is). He's been in game < 1 month. Both Iron and myself are > 13 months old. Wtf's some freaking socialite rating party dwell sucker noob making >$1600/week for doing jack. He, btw, got pissed because Iron didn't "return the favor". Haha freaking tard didn't realize that some of use KNOW THE TRUTH about ratings. Go make a name for yourselves, or starve. That's how it works.

Allowance, pfffft -- it's for children. Last I checked this game was for 18+.

It's ridiculous what the community has turned into. Now it's just people whoring money left and right and that's the norm. What ever happened to the creative community? Only ones I know are the old timers.

Agreed.

Disagree to most extent.

The point of dwell is to encourage people to socialize. I think that's a good enough reason.

Whether people are hanging out on your couch or in a club or at an event, they are still interacting. Remember if someone stays on for 5 minutes and logs it's the same as if they stay all day, so there's already a mechanism to limit the exploiting.

Second Life is a game where the players create content. People want people to come to their place and stay, and so they need to create good content to attract people. I see no problem with this. Honestly people aren't making that much money if a couple of friends hang out all the time.

And judging from money I make from a few items I sell, I think there's PLENTY of encouragement to make stuff.

-Hiro Pendragon

P.S. Ryen - you realize that the person who said your quote not only missed the point of the movie, but also missed the fact that Harrison Ford's character was also "a dishwasher".

I get ahead by sexxoring anyone who wants it. Uh. I mean...N/M....

Down with whores! I mean.... the dwell and rating kind. Or something.

Or to put it another slightly more coherent way, I endorse this product and/or service.

No, the point of dwell is money. I support dwell much more than I support ratings (ratings I don't support in the least, I think it's "gamed" by some (many?) purely for free money). At least with dwell, as you've said, you need to do something that makes people want to hang out. Still, Dwell is abused to some extent (but nothing like ratings).

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I think you missed the point of the quote. I'm sure that Rutger understood the movie (he was a supporting actor, perhaps the #1 supporting actor of the movie). Harison Ford wasn't a dishwasher (profession), he was, as stated by the quote, making sweet love to a dishwasher (his robot gurlfriend -- I'm gonna make me one in SL!).

Bos

I think the point of dwell is to make the land owner money, in the form of bonuses. I would be interested in seeing how many clubs just folded up shop if it was not a source of income. Sure many build clubs because its what they like, but many clubs are built to solely attract people, and dwell.

I dont understand why the land owner no longer counts towards their own dwell. It used to count so that hermits that stayed at home scripting or building would get some reward. Anyone know why this changed? Surely one person on a piece of land would not be worth as much as 20 people on the land, but the dwell would be proportional.

So, I guess dwell does encourage social interaction. But the real question is why? If I want to spend my time on my land watching the sunset, why is that a less valuable endeavor than building some kickass, noisy, crowded, laggy club? I dont care how people spend there time in SL, and neither should LL.

I would vote for a small equal stipend and no bonuses. I spend a lot of time in the welcome area helping new residents and I dont get any dwell bonus for that. I stand around the welcome area because I like helping new people, not for financial gain. Is it less an important function than building a night club? The owner of a club does not even need to be online to reap the reward. Im not knocking clubs, its just I dont think they are more worthy of anyone that may be doing anything else.

Could the night clubs still draw a crowd if they charged a cover? Could they earn their keep if dwell was not a factor and income was determined by creating a place that people are willing to pay to attend? If so, more power to them! That makes more sense to me than a hand out just for being.

I'm sorry, but it's clear:

Reason: People need incentives to gather.
Action: Rewards are given to landowners to encourage.

not

Reason: Landowners deserve money
Action: dwell is given to landowners

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Nono, I think I'm right. There had been debate since the movie came out whether or not Harrison Ford's character was a human or another replicant. The origami unicorn that Edward James Olmos' character left at the end, along with the unicorn dream Ford's character had, alluded that he was a replicant, just as Olmos left that at the site of another replicant. In sort of a "Sixth Sense" twist, Ford wasn't aware that he wasn't human, just like the assistant to Tyrell.

This was confirmed by the writer and director in 2002 or 2003.

Hence Ford played a dishwasher in the same way that Rutger used the word for Tyrell's assistant, though at the time of the quote, there was still debate over whether Ford played a human or a replicant.

In any event, it is just interesting trivia. The quote is funny =)


Loki

- you do have one point I'll give you - nobody uses the cover charge feature. That's the most logical argument for removing dwell that I have heard as of yet.

Hey Boso, if noobie socializers couldnt get any money, then how would they buy your goods?

Sorry but while that might have been true in the mostly empty world of a year ago, where the better part of the population was made up of highly skilled introverts, nowadays its no longer needed.
People are naturally social. They will gather and chat whether you like it or not. This isnt something that needs to be encouraged or discouraged.

Eggy, agreed. Let me refine my thoughts.

The dwell bonus is not to encourage people to go to events; it's to encourage people to make places that are popular.

I think it'd be tough to say there would be so many cool events if there was no dwell stipend. Clubs could charge a cover instead of dwell, but people won't want to pay it.

people do not need an incentive to gather. nobody pays people dwell to live in chat rooms, use email clients, or go to churches, private clubs, house parties, bowling alleys, night clubs...

people gathered and formed social circles in second life long before dwell was introduced.

ratings are another story. i've always been mass rated at events. i had hundreds of positive ratings after three days of trial. i didn't even know what was going on until jonmichael explained it to me and showed me how to rate back. y'all remember him? i quite liked him. this is not new, or due to 1.2's focus on MONEY, or a kiddy griefer thing as i hear so often. you old timers are just as guilty and you know it. ha!

what was i talking about? oh yes, i don't understand the rationale behind dwell. really. i never have. i would appreciate a linden post explaining where the idea came from and exactly what is supposed to be doing for us. or them. or us.

On any given day you can find Club Elite at the top of the dwell charts. On Sunday, their dwell stood at over 20,000! That's an amazing amount! In the two months that I have been playing the game, I have never seen the dwell for Elite less than 15,000. Still pretty stunning numbers. But do those numbers really say? Do they say that Elite is a popular place? Do they say that Elite is using the system to its maximum advantage by having "employees" who park in Elite for their entire online time? Will we ever know the real answer?

Just recently the Lindens instituted a draconian reform of the events calendar listing policy. Supposedly the Lindens instituted these new rules to close loopholes and to stop people from having events just to build dwell. It was supposed to help newbies. As you can see, it hasn't worked that way. Why, because Elite wasn't using events themselves to build dwell. They already had the system beat.

Ok, now onto ratings. In all reality, the ratings mean nothing of the person who rates you does not give a reason why. To rate me for no reason accept in the hope that I will rate back is idiotic. When I rate someone, it is to reward them for good behavior, good skills at "dressing" and for their building skills. I always tell that person why I am rating them. To do otherwise would be ludicrous.

In my opinion, I feel the Lindens should reform how they reward positive ratings. How, I am not quite sure yet, but I will think about and come back with a way.

The interview was taken in 2001, 2 years before the director announced he was a replicant, rutger didnt know. But he has a point

I'm sort of in the artist niche which means that my work won't be appreciated till I'm dead (and likely not after). So ratings make up the bulk of my income. I'm not a ratings whore; i don't go around rating people to get rated. I rate people who i feel have earned it.

A positive rating is also like a social handshake that says "You are all right".

Many people give the appearance rating along with the behavior. I'm debating if that is a good thing or not.

They get a job. Like anyone else has done that's worked for their $Lindens (or real $). Course you mention "socializers" -- so, being that some socializers simply refuse to, or simply don't want to, put effort in to anything (for payment, aka work) then they need to find a sugar daddy/mama, which I guess is big business in some circles (scoff).

When I first started SL I explored and played with building for my first few weeks. Then I sat about learning LSL (which was the #1 reason I joined SL, to script). After a good two months of monkeying with LSL I spent the last of my start-up money on buying a (rather broken) flight script. Then set about improving that and created the "Super Dodo", which at the time, was one of 3 or 4 working planes. I sold a lot of them and made myself a nice sum of cash. (as Darwin once said, "the most profitable noobie ever in SL history" (as he purchased a dodo haha).

I didn't do (and don't do) rate-parties, beg for cash, nor made diddly off my vote booth (didn't farm them!). I worked for my money, because I realized that effort = payoff. After almost 14 months in SL I still have pathetic ratings. Which I really don't care about. I've made PLENTY of cash off my toys, through effort.

I find SL's economy to be a joke. It'll never represent a semi-realistic economy as long as game-able factors exist (ratings/dwell). There's really no point to the "game", so, to me, income is the "score". Albeit a broken score system. I might be an exception, but I don't strive to make money to convert it to real cash. I horde it, it's my "score". I think I've bought 3 things in SL (land, too many times), a record (sound) during my first week, and a beta-era flight script. I certainly don't need $Lindens, except as a tally of personal success.

I guess that's what bothers me about ratings. People get free "scores" for doing jack. Then they convert it to real money, or whatever. That really bugs me.

Welfare systems = stoopid.

I'm a capitalist, and not too keen on systems that give to do-nothings for doing nothing, other than clicking checkboxes and standing around some plot of land for 5 minutes.

If you want to do nothing in SL, that's fine and dandy. SL can be very fun just doing nothing. But LL shouldn't be rewarding people for it.

This has to be the worst economy that I've ever seen an any game I've played. I realize that creating a true economy is close to impossible, a good economy though is possible, but giving away money for nothing definitely isn't the path to take. SL's over a year old and the longer the economy rots, the harder it is going to be to fix. It's already gone through some shake ups, none of which has really solved or improved much -- only made freeloading that much easier. (sure it shouldn't be impossible, everyone deserves some ease of enjoying SL.. but it shouldn't be GIVEN away freely and most of all, it shouldn't be game-able).

holy cow I'm ranting and 2 hours past bed time.

Boso

Drop dwell, drop ratings, make stipends equal.

As long as the Lindens are making money from premium accounts, the stipends probably won't be equalized.

One of the primary reasons I went to a premium account was for that L$500/week guaranteed stipend, as opposed to the L$50/week if you log in that week (which, granted, I'd probably never lose out on due to being a complete SL addict).

If the L$500 bonus stipend wasn't there, I wouldn't bother with the "premium" account, because the 512m land tier costs less than the premium account does.

- Neo

I for one am in constant awe of your work and of what you do. I tell everyone what a genius you are when your name turns up in conversation (and I try to drop it when I can).

Lumi

I have come to depend on developer's incentives to help take some of the edge off of being at the full sim tier. I'm fortunate that the Ivory Tower Library of Primitives in Noyo, even unfinished as it is, creates a lot of dwell. More importantly, I think, it gives new members something of a headstart at some intermediate and advanced building techniques in SL, but the dwell it creates helps a lot. It averages 40 to 50 visitors a day. It is my purpose in SL to be a sort of teacher, and to that end I'm slowly (very slowly) trying to build an educational institution that anyone from the oldest player in world to the person who joined yesterday can learn something new from.

The building competitions the attached group (Edifice Rex Builders' Group) help a lot on dwell, but the prize money given out far exceeds the daily dwell bonus it might bring. I'm planning to hold many, frequent and regular building related events in Natoma soon, and I can promise you they will not be rate mining events.

Selling things is not my main aim, although I do have three or four shops (mostly neglected by me) in world. This money typically goes to purchasing more land in Natoma and Noyo on those rare occassions land becomes available. My projects are very prim hungry and land is very important to me.

So there you have it. I'm in favor of Developer's Incetives based on dwell...and on the whole am indifferent to ratings. I think most of my ratings have come to me from people who have worked their way through the Ivory Tower and have clicked a wall in the structure and have rated me for (I hope) what I have done to help them. They typically seem to tripple rate me for this. My appearance rating is higher than my behavior and building ratings I think because in the final analysis, I see myself as nothing more or less than an avatar maker. And those ratings are a result of people seeing me in some guise or other.

Conversely, I'm pretty generous with my ratings of others. I'm always happy to rate good work where I see it, but hey...if someone rates me, I'll turn around and rate them back, it only seems fair to me.

Lumi

Boso, LL has stated that people are entitled to free money simply because they are paying a monthly fee for an account. WRT getting a job, some people have no skills. And they are here to have fun, not work. People who provide cheap entertainment (clubs, casinos, whatever) for the clueless masses help keep those clueless masses in SL, and help line LL's pockets.
As much as you and I hate the "90% of idiots", they are a necessity. They buy our stuff and pay mothly fees/land tiers that help LL stay afloat. If the world was populated by 100% talented people, no one would buy your stuff because they could just make it.
Having said that, ratings DO suck, and so does dwell. They are rather gameable but then again what isnt?

The masses have no taste. The masses are idiots. End of story.

You are correct, to a point. Assuming it was an equal stipend (I support the base stipends). If you agree to pay the Lindens for a monthly plan, then getting a better stipend ($L500 vs $L50) seems justified, especially on the RL business side. I don't believe rating bonuses were intended to be gamed, as they are. Yet the practice is widespread and apparently there's not end in sight (as it's been going on for so long, with no Linden policing that I'm aware of -- maybe they support it! pffft)

$500/week is PLENTY of money, free money, for doing nothing other than subscribing to SL. Although, giving a bonus (aka "ratings") that is commonly abused, has always been abused, and will always be abused is the flaw in the system. With people (potentially) selling $Lindens for real $, I find that even giving a stipend is, at the root, a silly practice. SL's econ is so screwed up that it has the potential to gain people real cash for doing jack. I dunno if purely rate-bonus money makers actually do this, but the potential is there.

As Jack said a couple posts above, give an equal stipend to all (eg: $L500/week, or $L50 for the $9.95 lifers). Else players need to sit down and learn how to texture, animate, create sounds, script, build -- contribute!

People will moan about an equal stipend, but only the do-nothings will moan. Those that understand a free-market economy, and understand that effort can increase one's "wealth" won't moan in the least. (no promises, you may indeed fail, just like in RL)

Bos

ok since your talking about Dwell here how about enlighting me on how the heck it works.
So far everyone I have asked acts like this is some well guarded secert.
I ask Linden I get a almost run around answer there is actualy no way to break it down put it to a pencil.
I have 4 or more events a day I bring in 20 + people for 1 to 2 hours an event and I get ( dont laugh) 179 for the 24 hours so the post where he said some newbie makes 1800 a week for social I dont understand pls explain since I am only a month old in sl I dont have a clue . I do know that I am putting a lot of hours trying to make things for people to do and giving out alot of L's to sponser the events with nothing in return .. wow nice system Lindens have just wish I knew how it worked

Ok, here is what I know, or at least what I think I know about dwell:
Everyone has 100 dwell points per day. It's split between all the plots that person spent at least 5 minutes on. How much you get is the ratio between the time spent on your plot and the time spent everywhere else. The time you spend on your own plot used to count, but it no longer does, apparently.
So if a friend logs on to your plot and logs off after 5 minutes, and he wasnt on any other plot that day, you get his 100 dwell points. If he spread his time equally between you and your neighbor, each of you get 50 dwell points.
What you get paid for those points is the ratio between those points and the total amount of dwell points players scattered all over the world that day.
You get paid less for the same amount of dwell points on a busy day.
You get paid more for your dwell points if on that day there are less people in the world to spread their dwell around.
If you are one of the highest rated dwell plots on that day, you get a thumbs up icon over your land on the map.
If you are consistenly ranking high on the dwell charts throughout the month, you get free money from the lindens.