Opposed to Prop 279 - All sims MATURE

Hi all,

I'd like to see some discussion about prop #279 - All sims MATURE.

This prop seems fairly popular with some. It's currently sitting at 15th place, with 327 votes, after "cubes with curved edges" and the linux client, but ahead of replaceable default animations and a content importer/exporter. However, I'd really prefer being able to continue to have places to go where I can have a reasonable expectation that avs will be clothed and I won't be surrounded by the sex market. Call me prudish, whatever. Maybe the balance of mature vs. PG sims needs to be changed, I don't know, but if PG sims were eliminated altogether, I'd have to consider whether I wanted to stay in SL. I think this proposal would reduce variety in SL, rather than enhance it, which doesn't seem like a good idea.

I asked in the Hotline for a discussion link to be made for this proposal (and others in the top 20 without discussion threads), and Jesse very helpfully went through and looked for appropriate existing threads to attach to each of the top 20 proposals without such threads, but unfortunately the thread chosen for this prop was my Hotline post, which obviously isn't a place to discuss anything. I've edited that post to provide a link here.

I'd appreciate seeing other comments on this.

neko

i dunno if it's worth a discussion on the grounds it'll never happen. ever. even if it gets a million votes.

and why should it? the only reason I can see for people wanting it is to infest the rest of the grid with their mature commercial crap at the expense of every one of those people that live in a PG zone and chose to do so to get away from porn, sexxoring, clubs and other mature content.

Yeah, the actual notion of PG in an adult game is kinda silly. At best it could be renamed. But it's not going anywhere, no matter who wants it to

I give you my personal guarantee!

It seems unlikely to me, too, but I note that Jesse did go to the trouble of providing a discussion link (if an inappropriate one). No such effort was made for the "pony" proposal, though props on either side of it in the list were edited to provide links. Perhaps the Lindens are interested in knowing what drove people to drop 327 votes (and counting) on this thing.

Renaming PG to something else would be fine by me, though it's certainly not something I'd waste a vote on. (Can't think of a simple word to use that would be better, either.) But that doesn't seem to be what this vote-getter is about.

Thanks for the reassurance, though.

neko

Meh. Have you seen the other stupid shit they're voting on? lol

I think it's prolly just up there for the comedy option. Like 'pie' in all the polls.

Never mind, I happened to glance in "General" today and I guess I know what this is about.

neko

Perhaps the proposal should be changed slightly to the following:

1) Give each plot owner a "Maturity Preference" setting for his or her plot, with a default value equal to that originally assigned by LL to the sim.

2) If all plots on a sim have their "Maturity Preference" set to Mature, then the sim is automatically switched to being Mature.

3) If all plots on a sim have their "Maturity Preference" set to PG, then the sim is automatically switched to being PG.

4) If the plots on a sim show a mixture of preferences then LL's original setting for the sim is retained.

While well-intentioned for immoral people like myself, that idea is not very good for people who are not like me. Let's say Judy Prude moves into a sim and sets her land to PG. Right next door, Bubba Sin marks his land to mature and sets up his "Tit Sandwich" club and Judy has to stare everyday at a 600 prim pair of mountainous mammaries holding a giant Mr. Winky from the view of her beautiful PG plot.

While I personally see nothing wrong with someone putting up a giant display of prim sodomy next to my property, I think it's pretty rude to subject prudes to that kind of material and expect them to deal with it just because they're not like me. If someone aggressively dumped Jesus on me despite my repeated protests, I'd probably be tempted to sock them in the face and I'm sure PG'ers feel the same way about Matureland snobs.

It might even be a good idea for new PG Sims to be always located on one side of the map so that people don't have to accidentally fly over mature sims if they don't want to.
If people want a Mature property, they should find a Mature sim (not try to run out PG'ers from a PG sim). If there aren't enough Mature sims, then that's a LL issue.

I think Nekokami-san is right on this one.

Well, if we're going to have a discussion after all, then:

1 - Thanks, Chance, I appreciate your respect for my comfort just as I respect your right do do as you please in Mature land,

and

2 - I think Morgaine meant that even people who set their preference to "Mature" in a PG sim wouldn't be able to treat the plot as Mature until everyone else in the sim agreed and the sim officially changed status. And as long as this was run as a unanimous vote requirement, it would technically be ok, but I could see a lot of problems explaining to people over and over again that just because they set their preference one way, that doesn't mean they can assume that's the setting for their plot, regardless of the sim setting. Some people manage to stay confused in the face of an infinite number of explanations when it suits them to do so.

neko

No, that couldn't happen, Chance.

You didn't read my suggestion properly. Setting your plot's "Maturity Preference" does nothing at all to your land, it merely expresses your preference. There would be no change in sim status from the LL default unless there was total unanimity among plot owners in their personal "Maturity Preference" settings.

Judy Prude could not possibly have 600-prim mammaries leap up on her on a default-PG sim unless she set her plot to "Maturity Preference" = Mature, and everyone else did likewise. Just because Bubba Sin sets his preference to Mature doesn't mean that he can act as if the sim were Mature. If there is a mixture of settings then the sim remains at LL default, in this case PG.

The same applies in reverse. If Bubba Sin lives on a default-Mature sim and suddenly gets converted by the Church of Fundamentalist Prudishness and decides that his plot will now be PG, changing his plot's "Maturity Preference" cannot bring the sim down to PG if he alone makes the change. It would require unanimity to override the default.

That's correct, Neko.

This mechanism would allow override of the LL sim setting by unanimity among plot owners, without requiring committees etc.

Except that, as I pointed out earlier, Bubba is very likely in a case like this to conveniently misinterpret the meaning of "Maturity Preference" act exactly that way, and Judy will, in fact, quite possibly have these 600-prim mammaries staring her in the face while she waits for a response to an abuse ticket. And then Bubba will have the opportunity to try to claim to the Lindens that he didn't understand the setting, or that his build has been misunderstood by Judy, and even if the Lindens are swift and consistent in their enforcement of the TOS Bubba is likely to start to pressure Judy to sell to someone more amenable to changing the status of the sim, using tactics all too familiar.

And, just to be balanced about this, I don't really expect any better behavior out of the Church of Fundamentalist Prudishness than I expect out of Bubba Sin.

From a technical standpoint, Morgaine, your suggestion would be fine. But from a psychological standpoint, I suggest it would be an invitation for even more unneighborly builds and behavior than we have now.

neko

Choice is a good thing. Why would you want to eliminate choice?

If you don't like PG, stay away from PG.

My group owns a third of a PG sim. We chose PG land, not only because it was cheap, but because, ironically, it often attracts fewer kids than mature land. No floating sexboxes. Clubs can't do, er, the things that they often do, and they tend to go away. Malls are somewhat unlikely because the content they can display is limited. In short, PG land makes things difficult for many of the things that nobody wants to live near. My group can build and script and not have to worry about those things. That's the way I like it.

Oh. Thanks for explaining, I honestly didn't catch that detail. I think Neko makes some good points in response, though. I also don't like the idea that, if Judy Prude is the only PG'er in a sim that has been taken over by a Mature Group whose intent is a sim buy-out, they could harass her until she gets fed up and run off her property. I'm not saying this would definitely happen... but... Jesse wars.

To set the record straight on my own doings in SL, I actually have never built anything lewd in SL. I have absolutely no problem with other people doing it. The only reason I like having Mature land is the "just in case" factor. I also don't want to be reported for cursing (do they do that in PG sims? I always just assumed some dickhead would so I usually watch what I say there).

I wonder how many other people buy Mature land without intending to use it for mature purposes?

Oh, I agree. Freedom always has a cost.

Given the choice between somewhat messy freedom and the tidy and comfortable prison of a nanny state, I always go for freedom. I guess it's the experience of living in a nanny state that's given me that perspective.

How about those of us who play and personally have no objection to mature sims or their contents, but due to having children in the house that constantly go by while you are playing SL seeing what's on the screen? That is the primary reason I have land in a PG sim. When my children are at home and awake I do try to stay in PG areas, because you never know when little eyes are peeping at your computer monitor! After they go to sleep or are at school I have no problem what so ever going into a mature sim, but while the kids are there I do self impose PG upon myself.

In conclusion, if all sims were mature my play time in SL would be severely limited.

Yeah right, far better to keep young eyes in the dark about sex and nudity, that way they can pick up the meme of "sex and nudity as bad and evil" from TV and from their peers, and of course repeat all the mistakes that arise from ignorance.



(Wasn't picking on you Jin, I understand where you're coming from. )

Sadly, the alternative of actually educating them openly and even-handedly in the subject so that they can detect attempts at social conditioning and make up their own minds when they're older is fraught with difficulties in today's modern society.

We don't live in particularly enlightened times.

While this might be a good point .. Second Life really isnt the place to worry about changing the way sex education is treated in the United States.

I think the current system is fine.

PG and Mature works fine, PG might be a dumb name for a 18+ game, but its like a PG movie as far as conent , so it actually works fine.

People deserve freedom For sexual content

People also deserve freedom From sexual content.

I don't keep them in the dark about sex or nudity. They are exposed to both, on a regular basis. Not just on TV either, we regularly go to museums and are exposed there as well. We even <gasp> talk about it. I have tried to teach them that sex is a beautiful and rewarding part of life, but like anything else it can become an obsession.

My main concern is that they do not need to see it all at once, and I don't want to have to be explaining all the different poses and other items you regularly see here in SL every time they walk in the room. I know you may think that is the lazy approach, but, hey I deserve some down time too.

A secondary concern is that they are not bombarded with sex at every turn, I would rather have a more balanced approach. After all, life has a lot more to offer than just sex.

Jin, in quoting just my first and last paragraphs and placing them next to each other, you've changed the context and made it appear that my last sentence was directed at you. That would be a misrepresentation.

Your approach to bringing up kids sounds very balanced and non-judgemental.

On the actual topic, I agree totally with the need for individual choice, and that includes choice of general orientation for the whole neighbourhood.

My suggestion of a technical solution for whole-sim maturity switching through unanimous per-plot "Maturity Preference" is merely a way of implementing that personal choice automatically. It could never be used to override even one single person's desire to retain the default LL maturity level for the sim.

This is a sick and sleazy proposal.

Some players of second life are happy to engage in degrading lifestyles of make believe sex and infidelity, but personally that makes me feel sick.

The day Second Life loses it's pockets of calamity and normality, is the day it transforms into one big Netherlands based euro XXX sex hole. When that happens I'm out.

There are times I want to get into the sailor talk. AWWWWW YEAH.

But then, there are also times when I get sick of the fuckbeds and sex fountains and people running around in almost nothing. I support maintaining PG areas indefinitely. I don't want to have to deal with nudity and gross attachments *everywhere* I go.

I also never want to see people running around in what is obviously underwear in PG zones. WTF is that all about?

You cannot be serious in objecting to that, surely. Or at least I would certainly hope not.

The mind boggles that someone might actually want to enforce some particular form of dress from the physical world in Second Life, over and above the simple restriction on display of sex and nudity in PG zones.

The logic would go something like this....

If you're running around in skimpy underwear, what are you doing? Being sexy.

Why are you being sexy? To have sex, eventually.

Where can you have sex? In a mature sim.

So, logically, you shouldn't be sexy in a PG sim, because you can't have sex there.



LF

Is it really that "simple"? Arguably, clothes that show almost everything are more erotic than bare skin. I've seen some outfits in PG areas that certainly violated the "comic code," and would not have been considered acceptable public wear anywhere that I know of (except possibly Las Vegas). EDIT: In fact, after thinking about it, I'd rather deal with ordinary nudity than some of the outfits I've seen. Nudity doesn't bother me especially, though I live in too cold a climate in RL for it to be practical 9/10 of the year. Nudity and sex are two different things.

But the dress code is too slippery a slope for me. I'll settle for not having to dodge around people actively engaging in the acts, and a limit on overtly sexual public builds. (I'm not even interested in enforcing PG inside people's houses. But I suppose that's because I have an unusual reluctance to go inside houses in SL unless I'm actually invited by the owner.)

neko