Extra skin layer

As full body skins become more and more popular and widespread there's going to be a definite need to have an extra layer for tatts. As it is now if someone wants a tatt on a full body skin the tatt maker has to be pestered for a copy of the texture with full permissions and then the skin maker needs to composite it for them and upload new textures. I think we need to plan for the future when non-default skins are the norm and more and more people are selling them. As long as adding tatts to a non-default skin requires the cooperation of three or more people it will be a stumbling block. If we had an extra texture layer for skin I think whole new markets of skins and add-on skin products will open up in SL.

Pretty please?

Tis a good idea.

Only drawback I can think of is it will take longer to load avatar textures, obviously. But maybe the added flexibility is worth it.

Well since the textures get baked together with the lighting as it is hopefully it wouldn't require everyone in eyeshot to download both layers. They'd get the already baked textures.

Someone will want to combine a nipples texture, a navel texture, a tan lines texture, a back tat, a belly tat, and separate upper- and lower-arm tats. And if one has the ability to bake them all into a single image, *once*, while in Appearance mode... why shouldn't they?

In fact, why not be able to do the same with *every* layer of your appearance? Shirts, stockings, skirts... and for that matter, the surfaces of prims...

Make the texture selection dialog into something like the "Layers" dialog in Photoshop/GIMP. Let people stack textures, order them as they please... and when they close the dialog, it gets baked into a single texture.

Of course, people already complain about the complexity of the interface. Make multi-texture an "advanced" feature, like the "More" part of the object editor. The minimized version would look just like the current dialog.

That would seriously rock Tinker.

Totally agree, much needed.

I beleive in recent versions now, the AV making and appearance hes become left behind and is well due for an update, I would like to see an extra skin layer, far more slots for tatoos and add ons, I am alread myself burden with too many objects/ tats for the spaces and have had to get complex blends merged.


I also really really want to see the Lindens introduce a big upgrade to the AV making, with far more wider ranged sliders, allowing smaller and bigger limits on all body parts than current, individually sized body parts not just both legs, both arms identical etc. Also :

* the ability to merge prim shapes with the body and have clothes wrap around and over them.. tiired of having to remove some parts cos they stick thru clothes all the time.

* id like the AV skin texture as an exact tex file material with its own reflect and light settings, i have tried making body add ons in my exact skin RGB but they react total diferent to light than my AV skin so wont blend in.

I would like see the facial and other variations greatly improved, and please i hope separate eybrow color from hair, I might have bright red hair but i dont want matching eyebrows default. Also need eyebrown angles, asian eyelid variants ( hard to get right in SL), ability to MOVE tattos, separate slots for arms and legs NOT the same both sides,
the ability to apply textures to skin instead of just color.

Also could we not have an optional ' Adult' pack for the basic AV with realistic parts, properly textured provided to verified adult credit care subscribers, instead of having to rely on Barbie doll bodies? I do not belive the very few current makers of these add ons do a very good job of creating such things, and its annoying theres no 3D element in these even if u have them on. I would have thought adding nipples etc, shape style , size, etc to the AV Appearance isnt going to corrupt morals of planet surely...


Few other games etc rival SL for body moveing and looks, only Project Entropia comes close with theirs, but im sure now after so many otjher improves that SL can improve AV making. I also think we shuld be able to adjust textures on clothing in appearance in same way we adjust them on objects.

Ultimately Id like to be able to make/ commssion entirely custom AV body shapes and sizes from Poser into SL, that wuld then truly create a realistic and variable set of people.

sounds neat , then can save places for new tats wed wana do instead of having to put them on clothing

I think allowing this with everything is only asking for some severe performance hits, though I agree something akin to this should be considered.

What I would much prefer, with upper-body clothing, is an "apply to only left/right arm" toggle.

this sounds like a great idea to me, as my current avatar already uses the skin layer for a fur texture, i've always wanted to add tats, but there's no such luck considering the skin layer texture wasn't made by me in the first place.

No, Reitsuki, there are no performance hits here. The texture you download is created on the server by compositing all the different layers together. The client would see no performance difference, as the end texture would be exactly the same amount of data that is transferred now.

Chip, Tinker and Snakekiss are correct. The avatar customization system is broken and outdated. We need something better. SL's avatar customization has always been one of its top selling points and yet, it's also been one of its least well-implemented features, at least as far as UI is concerned.

More skinning options would be cool.

I endorse this feature/idea.

I would like to see a grid of attachment points or at the very least more attachment points. Right/left nipples, r/l derriere/, front, center, back pelvic region. From ONE Linden's suggestion where the "packages" attach. This should also include, elbows, knees, ankles and wrists..right and left of each.

A grid could be used to cover any other points left out of this suggestion.

I agree with both the original post topic and the above quote. Both would be very nice to see.

Whatever happened with these ideas?

Well, I support the points posted by these users as well.

Well, people had these ideas, and presumably the Lindens read about them and then didn't implement them, like about 95% of the stuff we ask for.

Generally speaking, the Lindens KNOW what part of their code sucks, and what isn't well-designed. Every now and then, something really interesting comes out of the Feature Suggestions forum, but on the whole, I would say there is very little in the way of "original" feature suggestions. This one, to let us have three or four layers on the head as well as the torso, is pretty much common sense to anyone who's had the misfortune of mucking around with making clothes.

Basically, this IS something that needs to be fixed, and so, it's likely on the list, but the problem lies in the size of the list compared to the number of developers. There are many commercial products much smaller in scale and scope than SL, yet with dozens of developers, compared to the half dozen Linden Lab employs. Because of this, not everything can be implemented or fixed. With development time at a premium, it has to be spent on important things. And remember -- SL is still a commercial product. It's a tricky balance, between fixing bugs and obviously poorly-impemented features that risk turning away new customers, and fixing problems that existing customers have been clamoring for forever. Particularly when the existing customers are growing tired of putting up with problems, or are becoming bored with the limitations of some facet of SL.

An existing user saying "I want to get a sim, but we can't do <thing> so, I don't think I'm going to," is in some ways, much worse on Linden Lab's bottom line than an awkward experience for a newbie.

So basically, it comes down to weighing things against each other. Should they fix a recurring bug, (ghosting, perhaps? ) or should they spend time on producing a feature that might allow the content team and ambitious users to create more attractive content? Either are arguably important, and of course, without LL's revenue information and subscription data, we can't honestly say what the best choices are.

Suffice it to say that they CLAIM to read the forums, and much of what has been suggested here has eventually been implemented, so I suspect that given enough time to do it, we'll see this happen.

Edit: Forgot to quote.

I saw a Linden reading feature suggestions earlier today, so they definitely do browse them. I certainly don't take it personally if something I beg for doesn't get implemented. Just gotta throw stuff out there and see what sticks This particular suggestion is a bit of a no brainer but I wouldn't put it very high on the priority list... though it will become more important as user created skins get more popular.

and again, we always hafto have the "what ifs."

I love the Merging textures idea. its perfect, no preformance hit, and works with the existing system without to much changing...

But, what about permissions?

if you merged textures from bob and marry.
whos the creator now?

what about stealing?
merge a texture with a 100% transparent texture, and of course you end up with the origonal texture, with who as creator again?

Dont get me wrong its a great idea, but LL really needs to fix the premissions system.

>-- see thread Permission system a joke---<

I just had an idea. why not replace the current attachment system all together and replace it with a more advanced system. Or at least make a new advanced mode for attachments. First off the limit would be on the number of attachments you could have on the body at one time. So instead of the current limit being 1 attachment per attachpoint for all 30 attachpoints it would be 30 attachments and they could be anywhere. For down compatibility reasons the old attachpoint system would still remain active. The new system would allow you to specify the limb at which the attachment was attached, the location of the root prim on the limb and finally it's rotation. This new system would also have an attachment editor window that would let you tweak the exact location and rotation of attachments to the body; sort of like the preview windows for texture uploads and appearance. See attachment for quick mock up.

LSL functions:

void AttachToAgent(integer part, vector position, vector rotation)
list GetAttachmentAttributes()

running AttachToAgent on an object that is already attached would cause it to change to that new Attributes but attachment would have zero energy for 2 second.
GetAttachmentAttributes returns a list made up of integer part, vector position, vector rotation.



i like the idea of burning the layers togeather; the clothing would have to support this so layers could be added and subtracted. This would reduce some load on the server as it would let SL burn jackets to shirts etc.

Jason, Strife, I think you guys are misunderstanding how texture baking works...

Right now, suppose I walk up to you in-world. I have a shirt, undershirt, jacket and custom skin as a tattoo layer. All are at least partly visible. But how does this happen? I mean, you can only display a single texture layer on a polygon, can't you? Well, in SL, yes. So how do all those textures remain visible? Here's how:

Rather than sending the data for all five textures (yes, five! four custom textures and the default skin layer.) to your computer and then having your computer put them together as one would in Photoshop, this operation happens on the server and a temporary texture is created. The server sends the temporary texture to the client, which renders what it gets.

So Jason, a "merged" texture isn't accessible to anyone. Simply by putting on an article of clothing, you're "creating" a "merged" texture.

And Strife, SL already does "burn the layers together".

What Chip is suggesting, and others are agreeing with is that certain areas of the mesh are not covered. There are five segments -- the legs, the skirt, the torso/arms/hands, the head and the hair. Of these, the torso has a total of 5 custom layers, (undershirt, shirt, jacket, gloves, tattoo), the legs 5, (underpants, pants, socks, shoes and tattoo), yet the hair, head and skirt only have one each -- in fact, the skirt and hair don't even have a DEFAULT layer, so they've got one less than the other three automatically.

A lot of the problem is due to the "clothing" metaphor. It sort of works, but the implementation is kind of screwed up. The average SL user sees clothing items as CLOTHING. I suggest that most designers see them as a series of texture layers, full of really annoying limitations.

If we had a way to easily wear an undershirt above a jacket, or to have a pair of underpants that covered the feet, or to place two or three different layers on the face, (custom skin, eye makeup, lipstick) designers and customers could have a lot more freedom and collaboration would be easier. Suppose I want a painted or photosourced skin, but I don't want to pay for a custom one. I have the makeup textures I want to use, but I didn't make them, I bought them from someone else. If I want to wear the photosourced skin and third- or fourth-party makeup all together, I have to contact all the designers and get them to agree to some kind of deal whereby one of them recieves the textures and assembles them for me. And then, presumably, I have to pay them all. And if they don't trust each other, or one of them is no longer in SL, or some such inconvenience, well, then I'm screwed.

So all Chip and the rest of us are asking for is that the level of texturing we're able to do on the torso and legs be extended to the face. Hair really doesn't need to be, and I can't think of any real reason skirts need to be, either. If you wanted to wear two skirts together, or the short skirt/long jacket combo, you'd be screwed anyway, since we can only attach one skirt mesh, which is deformed accordingly. Now, if we could have a second mesh, that might be pretty cool, but that's best left for another forum thread, I think.

*bump*

Maybe in 1.6? Pretty please?

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I'll second that.... even if only so I can have two DIFFERENT arms... >:/
How in the world am I going to do an SL tattoo expo when everyones running around with identical sleeves?
Oh, and I want a cybernetic arm (singular)!!!
Anyway... more skin layers == good

Sl is still on top of customization as far as shape and many other features... lets crank it up that extra notch.

Bump. Yes. Dear God, yes! Awesome idea. Nuff said.

*bump* because Uncle is reading and I'm shameless

Shameless or not, I'll give you an "amen" on this one. A "skin" layer beneath the "tattoo" layer would be fantastic.

I am re-endorsing this! *chuckle*