Basic Members....would you be willing to pay a SMALL yearly fee?

Believe it or not I am not suggesting price (USD) hikes at all. What I am tryin got point out is people are saying "free accounts take up all this money". Which I won't doubt is true. What I have an issue with form the start is this "making all accounts pay for stuff" when alot of other accounts were grandfathered. If we are going to force a group not to be grandfathered then we should all not be grandfathered on things like 4096, stripend, etc. If people want to argue saving LL money don't imediatly jump on unverifieds. Unverifieds have had a major bashing since they were first introduced. Before that I could have sworn hearing alot of people say the same thing about "basic" accounts or "non-content creators". I'm not gonna say unverifieds are the angels of SL...but no other group is either.


The orgional arguement is forcing people to pay a $10 a year "exisitance" fee for lack of better arguement. Problem is the wording and what would happen. We all got caught up in "I pay tier make the others pay." Problem is many have alts. Those alts would be charged. Personally I think it should be an all or nothing charge. You want an account here you pay the $10 a year regardless of tier or no tier. I also though would not pay this fee until LL showed me they are improving. In light of bad updates, bad customer service, and little advancements in the game system does anyone feel it is worth paying the $10 a year?

True I agree the ammount is small but that's like what 15 or 20 USD a month LL is losing and it was a "Grandfathered" deal since before that they could have unlimited land, etc. I honestly would not want any of the old deals to be pulled. I think those people DO deserve their 4096 (as some even won it I think in early LL contests). What I am trying to point out is this initial plan was flawed cause it targeted basics and it implied no grandfathering. Never mind as already stated that most of the basics we are talking about can't even talk here.

Also Kitty wasn't ignoring you (just didn't see it) no there is nothing special about my alt except some people think it answers my RL gender (as krazzora is a herm) or that I do infact do other naughties on my alts (I'm an angel in SL). Often I am using them just for legit, fun, or relaxing reasons.

So...

You believe everyone else should be overcharged for an avatar?

Where are you being charged for an avatar. Outside of the people that paid 10 USD to register where were you charged for the use of your avatar. Tier people pay for tier. They get land and right now they get L$ (which LL is already starting to take away). The orgional arguement is cause basics take up space they should pay a yearly fee. Depending on how you define basic (SL history Wiki defines it as non premium or lifetime members) most have participated in the SL economy at one point or another via LINDENX or previously owning land. The unverifieds or payment info not used accounts are large but as stated have a large churn rate. Problem is the BASICS won't pay. Most are going to argue they are alts of paying premium accounts, have payed the 10 USD fee, etc. Then those that are taking up space and never paid for a dime of anything to LL directly will leave in large groups.

I agree completely! I don't even think that alt's should have the option of being free. Granted, now they don't but I do remember when they were. Hmmph!

Now see that I agree with. I just don't agree with the current statements made.

Here's what I have for data and what I am thinking following the base proposal.

From History Wiki:
Basic (no reoccuring fees)
- Payment Info Used (charged either 9.95 or used Linden X to buy OR SELL lindens. Also premium members who decided not to continue owning land.)
-- L$250 signup bonus received on first login (if done at registration)
-- No weekly stipend (for basic accounts created after 5/29/06).
- Payment Info on File (has included payment info but never charged.)
-- L$250 signup bonus received on first login (if done at registration)
-- No weekly stipend (for basic accounts created after 5/29/06).
- No Payment Info (has no payment info on file. Has decided not to disclose that information.)
-- No weekly stipend (for basic accounts created after 5/29/06. Actually think this is null and voided by default)
Premium ($9.95 a month (or $22.50 quarterly or $72.00 annually). Also any tier fees.)
- Can buy/own land, pricing based on a tier system.
- First 512sqm of land tier free for land purchased on the mainland
- L$1250 bonus on first login. (Reduced to L$1000 on the first month on Premium in late 2006)
- L$500 weekly stipend. (Clarification: this stipend has been reduced to L$400/wk, and then - L$300/week for Residents switching to premium in the later part of 2006)
Lifetime accounts (paid $225 once to own as much land as they could and then after 1.2 they were given free 4096m2 instead.)
- Can buy/own land up to 4096m2 and then are charged as a premium member.
- no stripend

What I am saying is maybe it should be this:
Basic ($10 a year) (this is what the orgional vote called for.)
- You exsist.
Premium ($10 a year+ $9.95 a month (or $22.50 quarterly or $72.00 annually). Also any tier fees.)
- You exsist
- Can buy/own land, pricing based on a tier system.
Lifetime ($10 a year)
- See basic

The charge being asked for is an "existance" fee. They take up space therefore they should pay. Everyone takes up space the only difference is land or no land right now and stripend. Stripend si already going bye bye even for premium members. Soon the only differnce will be tier for land. Tier fees are there cause you wish to use up computer resource not a charge to exsist. That is what the old ten dollar charge was for if anything. Also if I remember correctly people have tried to get the $10 charge reinstated and LL has continously said no so they are aware of the fact and have an obviously different model of how to come up with more money.

EDIT: Also of course the assurance that this money would be used first for better support and then the further movement onward of SL. I want to see my money in action not just lining pockets like it seems now.

I was only responding to what I read into what you were saying:

"Should be an all or nothing fee" or: pay $10 a year... or no account.

"Everyone should pay $10."

"I won't pay it unless LL improves". or: It's not worth $10 a year to me.

"Does anyone think accounts are worth $10 a year?"

Which to me sounds like you're advocating overcharging everyone else for avatars.



Personally, I'm fed up with the "make the freeloaders pay!" attitude.

I do not mind having to pay more if it means that my RL friends and family can come visit me in SecondLife simply and freely.



Do you really think the yearly $10 avatar fee will be enough to
compensate for the amount of LOST tier, LOST land sales, LOST L$ sales and LOST lindex fees resulting from an 80% decrease in new residents?

What's funny....is I think everything is fine. The only way I would agree to price hike is if it was what I posted above. I think we are on the same page. "stay as we are" I think we are debating over the "future". To me it just seems silly to charge a group merely having an avatar without charging everyone else the same. Specially since they are already here and people seem to want to charge what most likly is a very small group in actually once you get all the diplomacy done. I didn't mean to make it sound like I was coming at you directly but the idea that premium somehow exempts a person from charges was getting to me. It's an old debate that has been kicked around since before free accounts.

Anyone have a nuke to hit this dead horse with?

if you charge me a fee, ANY FEE, it had dammed well let me own land!

Agreed.
You want Visible Benefit for having to pay Tier, well you have it. YOU have the Land you Paid For.
The Fact Is, we as basic accounts ALSO contribute to the Sum Total of the SL economy Easily as much as those who pay Tier (I'm not sure, but it seems to me Probable that Basics Outnumber Tier owners and Each Basic IS paying Lindens into the system, and Keeping the economy Flowing) and i think that more than compensates the rest of the SL society for our presence.Remove Land Ownership from the Calculation and i think you would see this is true. I do not own land myself but i've Taken the time and learned to Build, Design, and Terraform so i could provide that service to Land owners, Many of whom lack the time, the experience and in a Few Cases, the Aptitude to do so for themselves. I'm one of Thousands (Tens of Thousands perobably) of Basic accounts who's skills are made available to Tier owners who's sole contribution to the game is creating space for Our materials to be shown or Vended. It's a Symbiosis.

What you are asking is, Apart From the Lindens Many of us pay to land Owners in Rent for Homes, Shops, Etc, Apart from the Business we bring to your commercial lands, Apart from the Success WE help make of the events on Your Land, you want US to subsidize Your Land Ownership Without Granting us the right to own land Ourselves. Well, we already do that as Listed above, All you have to do is convert the Lindens to Pay for your Tier, and you are Less out of Pocket than you were before.

Yes, I see LL Has raised it's prices for Private Islands. But Guess what? Hardware Costs More these days. The time and effort in adding to a Vastly increased network has become by it's size alone a more time consuming and costly task. the Price Hike goes directly towards supporting the Land demands of the Tier Owners. It's the Hard, Firm, and Software necesary to Add that additional land to the grid that has Necesitated the Increase NOT the Presence of additional Basic Avatars. You are Paying for what you are getting, and Getting what you are Paying for. LAND.

Angel.

Some of you still don't get the point. Lindens Labs is trying to make Second Life available to anyone in the world with internet access regardless of their ability to access PayPal and other American banking systems. Just because someone lives in a country where they can't access American banks doesn't make them a lazy griefer bum like some of you are implying.

Give it a break and welcome them all!

Don't give Linden any new ideas as far as charging more cash. Do you actually believe if we paid more, the service would actually improve? C'mon now, that's nothing but wishful thinking.
They make enough as it is and the service isn't all that great to begin with. Why should anyone have to pay extra cash just to entice them to do a better job, that's a lot of nonsense.

But if anyone wishes to pay extra then by all means, go right ahead.

Owning land? No one owns anything, not even those who have that title now. if you did, you wouldn't be paying tier as the land is yours to begin with.

I agree with you, Ricardo, about the likelihood of Linden providing better customer service simply because basic users start paying $10 a year.

As regards land ownership, though, I just want to point out that even in RL land ownership is not absolute. In most areas, for example, if one doesn't pay one's property taxes, one can lose one's land. Further, what activities one can engage in in the privacy of one's home is frequently limited. Finally, people are often surprised to find out that some big oil or mining company has rights to what lies deep beneath the surface of one's home. Specifics vary from place to place, but absolute ownership is less common than many believe.

I do agree with you on this, Susie. In fact, I appreciate you presistence in pushing this point - You've opened my eyes and mind. Thanks.

I feel the basic folks should pay 3 to 5 per month. That's not asking alot. If that's alot to you then you may not have a job and I understand. If you live in a country where you make 20 us dollars a week I understand that also. But those that are working and live in a country that they make a normal income should pay. Im not sure what I mean by normal. ) Just my 2 cent input. smiles

Yeah..Let em in. Who cares if they don't pay. It's thier right to be in SL. Just cause they have no credit cards or pay-pal is no reason to keep em out. While were at it. We should buy them all a car..Not thier fault they don't have a car. And hey..Long as were buying them cars we should buy everything for em. Not thier fault they don't have everything. I think Lindenlabs should raise the monthy prices for all Payed, veified "Premium" customers so that a portion of this revenue can be put aside to buy these poor Creditcardless souls a more comfortable free ride. I mean It's not thier fault. Really. In return..I want something from them..Soverien rights and citizenship to thier countries so I can move there and have someone else hand me every goddamned thing I screech for on a silver platter cause it's not my fault I don't have it. My thoughts? for real? Piss on em. Remove thier accounts from the databases, delete all thier stuff and tell em to come back and play when they have something besides a "god given right" and an internet connection. Perhaps it will start a movement in thier "Creditcardless"coughbullcough) countries to implement a more globallized approach to thier own infrastructures. As for giving them a break..why? All I hear from 90% of them is how America sucks, America bites,Filthy americans are all fat lazy couch potatos, America should be wiped off the face of the map..Yeah..I really want to give these people a break. Funny how we all suck..Untill it comes time to pay the bills. then it's..Oh please..Please Mr Imperialistic Capitolist peegdog..Can I have some more please? Pfft. I'll give em a break alright.

I've been of the impression that this is more to serve LL "resident" number bumping than the LL customers. Guess who loses?

No one said any such thing, but nice strawman. You brought in Nepalese into the conversation as examples of people who don't have credit cards, my point was most of them don't have computers either.

"People living in the amazonian jungle can't get credit cards!"

"I doubt very much they are playing online computer games, either."

"Jinogist bigot!"



It's been pointed out that no matter what country you live in, if you have the computer set up and the high-speed internet connection to play SL, you can afford $10 a year. Hell, outside of the West and Asia, if you have that set up, you probably are among the most privaleged in your country. Credit cards, debit cards etc exist outside of the US of A, to me it is ignorant to think that only america and europe have access to credit cards, that is hardly the case, they are international.

And for the record, ahem, this is how I see all this panning out:

They are looking to open source the client, Cory said they wanted to do this in 2007. The client itself will be free, like a web browser. But the content, that will be charged for, for access to people/businesses with servers who will pay licenses to LL to use the software. Then everyone can bitch that no one without money can access anything good, it's all for a charge, unless it's Nissan Island or some commercial crap. That is why they keep telling us to charge for access to clubs and shit. I have no idea if they are going to keep SL as we know it going, since they are looking to a free client, pay for software set up. SL is a money hole for them. It's a showcase for their future plans.

My two lindens.

The pinnacle of the argument. SL is NOT a right, it's a privilage and a luxury.

In fact, I'm proud to be an American. I'm granted the ability to buy a house, sell a house, work any job I want and as a woman, be free to walk the streets without a man's escorts, and I don't have to cover my head. Of course, that's my preference. Ironically, it's an AMERICAN company that gives you SL. So go ahead and complain some more, maybe American would be swallowed up in the ocean and SL wouldn't exist at all.

I'm usually the one with rational researched ideas, but I'm getting sick of some things to a certain point.

For those of you complaining that you have to go through American ways to get verified. Bull POO. I've helped and also given out info freely to anyone who wants it on how to get a pre-loadable debit card. There were thousands of people from all over the world that got verified because they wanted to play. Before non verification, I've met people from Korea, Netherlands, France, England, Zimbabwe, Taiwan, Thailand, Libya, Chile, Belgium, Mexico... and that's what I've met and made friends with. The difference is, they weren't lazy and made demands for free from a company that has costs to operate.

How in the hell do you think you'd be treated if you walked into the Ritz-Carlton and demanded a free room with no ID because it's your right to sleep? Try telling Blizzard that WoW should be free in countries that can't afford it and it's thier right to have access to WoW without paying.

If you are too poor to have a bank account, which really you shouldn't be in SL anyways, but if you are too poor to link it to a paypal of YOUR country (paypal currently operates in roughly 103 countries), and you can't afford to pony up 11 bucks for a 10 dollar prepaid card. TOUGH!!!! You should be more worried about food, rent, etc. Countries where players cannot afford to pay, shouldn't be playing. Plain and simple. These same countries have hundreds of gold farmers who DO pay monthly fees of 15 a month to farm in WoW and EQ and such, on top of usually paying for the fees of the internet cafe's they frequent. Harsh? Yes. Reality? Yes. The whole world is classist. There are the have's and the have not's. And more often than not the have not's that do have internet are there because they refuse to get somewhere else. It's a struggle ever since welfare was invented in America for Americans. Why should we have to pay for the same people that get the same money as Americans who really can't work versus those that are too lazy to? Well, why should LL and paying members of SL pay for people who demand it be free? Give me ONE SINGLE GOOD REASON why it's fair that I pay through LindeX and premium membership, that allows others to have the same priorities and rights as me without ever dropping a dime?

If you own a comp and net connection that can run SL, 10 bucks a year is no sweat off your back for a game that allows you this much freedom.

I'm sick of having the same priority as a premium member with only 4k inventory, that someone who is unverified, and never paid a dime through LL can create 20k boxes and his inventory loads at the same as mine.

And it's BS if you say you are unverified and pay tier to LL. LL does NOT allow an unverified account to hold land and membership, especially in part to the fact they 'aftercharge' tier. If you are renting, you aren't paying LL.

You are paying someone who has already paid LL regardless of whether you rent there or not and putting money into THIER pockets. All that's happening is money is being shifted... not profited off of from an unverified account. So you have a job that pays for shopping? Well, that job would pay anyone regardless of thier account, and the owner already holds those Lindens, which you then transfer to a content creator, which then goes somewhere else. You're robbing Peter to pay Paul and NOT contributing.

I may sound like a bitch, but who cares. Due to the heavy loads and such, SL has barely been playable, losses are in the thousands from the huge lag from people who DON'T pay LL instead of those who do. I'd rather lose a few thousand unverified accounts in favor of stability, and more direct contributions to LL.

If people are into SL like they say and LL were to impose a fee, than you can bet your ass people would stop being lazy and demanding about verification and would actually do it.

Is it NOT your right to be here. It's a privilage and NO ONE, I mean NO ONE owes you a free game. LL doesn't owe anyone anything and I don't owe anyone anything.

I say create a trial isle. Let people play and walk and talk on there for a week, if you don't like it, leave... if you like it, pony up even a nominal amount and go about your business.

10 bucks isn't much to anyone who pays to get to SL. But 10 bucks for even 500,000 accounts is 5 million dollars extra a year. I'd rather have a few less people, if LL got the money they needed to do things that need to be done.

*waits for the flaming to start*

what about making em pay a monthly fee based on theyr inventory size?

i know , devil advocate, but enough of the free hippy stuff, you want a service, you pay for it, not just let a few pay for you.

Well, if LL does it right, they have the possibility of changing RL with what they've started by SL, and I imagine that's what their next SL model is going to try and do. I'm looking forward to the future....I think. We'll see, based on what kinds of fees I have to pay for the future model, in order for it to be worth my time to participate, compared to just playing in someone else's virtual playground (another MMOG).

Seola we aren't talking here about poverty and how some people, such as in the Amazon rain forest, can't afford computers and Second Life. What we are talking about are people who can afford computers, DSL and SL but have no way to pay the USA banking systems that Second Life requires.

I must be dense or something but I still see no reason why free accounts shouldn't be offered to all. If, in the future, Linden Labs offers a way for anyone in the world to pay them then this matter may make more sense to discuss.

By the way they don't have PayPal in Nepal.