Basic Members....would you be willing to pay a SMALL yearly fee?

Linden Lab does not get involved in transactions between residents. They could care less that you and Bob might be doing business together. If Bob doesn't pay you for something, and in turn because Bob didn't pay and thus you can't pay your tier fees, Linden Lab doesn't go after Bob for the money.



Whenever someone buys Linden dollars on the LindeX they're also charged US$0.30-cents for the transaction as a "transaction fee." The 30-cents flies magically across the ethereal vastness of the Interweb and goes into LL's pocketsess. The remainder of the transaction flies magically across the Interweb and into the account of the person whoever sold the Linden dollars.

GOM charged US$0.12-cents per L$1K block.

Businesses aren't in the "piece of mind" game. They sell products and/or services in exchange for a substance known as "money." If this wasn't the case then we could all send the local electric company a certificate written in crayon stating "Good for one hug in exchange for all the electricity I used last month." It seems unlikely that my generous offer of a hug in exchange for electricity would give either me or them piece of mind and would most likely result in my power being turned off.

(Removed since I just realized this doesn't really have anything to do anymore with either the topic or the post I made about how live help or how the abuse report system could be reformed )

@ Elex: google for CC merchant accounts and read up on transaction fees and how the charge-back process works. Then read some credible sites on how much of a liability accepting online CC payments can be. That 30 cents does end up in someone's pocket, but it's not going to be LL's and it's not all that farfetched that it may actually cost them more than that on average if you factor in fraud.

As a WoW player and an SL premium member, you really can't compare WoW with SL. Warcraft gives new content, new zones to go to, etc. SL does not, it doesn't really fit the game that way. They should try though, it would make it worth the extra cash.

Think of being able to buy land on a foreign planet or on the moon.. an underwater sim with underwater physics! Instead SL is stuck in a rut of just trying to maintain the content they currently have, and there isn't ever anything new to brag about to friends or family.

While you are correct about the fees that LL charges, the bigger point is that LL does sell L$ on the lindex through the Supply Linden account. Here's a link.

I'm not sure how to read the numbers, but if LL is selling L$ on the Lindex then they ARE getting paid some portion of the subscription fees they had previously collected. The difference is that only users participating in the economy are actually making a potential payment to LL when they choose to participate. Prior to the free accounts, that money would have been automatically brought into the economy through stipends.

I just want LL to get the cash they need to support the growth nd provide quality services (and make a profit too!) It seems that it is a balancing act...you need to open the gates to grow the community..then entrepeneurs take the risk of investing thier money to build new places and services in the hopes that people are attracted and want to use those places and services. That leads to people creating a demand for L$ which Supply Linden happily offers on the market. All this keeps the economy stable while we all look forward to amazing growth.

Bring on the free accounts, I say.

I disagree. Linden Lab isnt in the business of creating content, you are. If you want to brag to family, make something to brag about. The same goes for all of us!

You brag to your family about blood elves?

I posted about Supply Linden a few posts up .

Sinks are L$ that get thrown into a big black hole (When you take a snapshot for L$ 10, that L$ 10 gets taken out of circulation). Sources is new money that gets created (primarily stipends and Supply Linden sales).

The sink part of the "other" category seems to be partly comprised of cleared L$ balances from lapsed or banned accounts (just what I read on Linden Answers). No idea what "other" sources are though.

People who spend $ were already contributing, if I buy $50 worth of L$ at the same time you sell $50 worth to pay your tier, you end up getting my money, which you hand back over to LL.

Supply Linden is a good thing (although I far preferred the about L$350/$1 exchange rate when I started ) but it shows that LL would rather get extra money from people who are already paying than from those who are unwilling/unable to, yet who make up a significant portion of the cost.

It isn't a revenue issue at all; throw another $11M at LL and they'll still stumble all over themselves. That is all they seem capable of since I joined 3 years ago.

(And yes, I'm a lifer who took a gamble on a bitty company and wish they'd get it right. Unfortunately, they'd have to decapitate LL to do that, and I even asked the board to do that about a year and a half ago - with carbon copy to The Phil)

I think some of you have missed the point. Not everyone who lives outside of the USA and Europe are dirt poor and can't afford a SL membership. They may have DSL, and a way to pay for that in their own country, but they have no way of paying for a SL premium membership unless they fly to San Francisco each month and hand Phillip a ten dollar bill!

I really don't see why that is so hard to understand.

Anyone in the world can get a stored-value card suitable for paying their SL fees to Linden Lab. Please see a prior post of mine on the topic:

/327/c5/141899/2.html#post1309789

If the effort and expense of acquiring a stored value card to register an account is of value to the person, they'll do it. If not, they won't.

Presuming "they" know the value of an account...

Which "they" won't.

SL isn't a simple specific function appliance that delivers a simple comprehensible product. Folks don't know if it suits them until after they've tried it for a while.

Try charging people before they can attend your SL events,
or try charging them before they can enter your store.

Even the tumbleweeds will roll elsewhere.

I agree to an extent, but LL should be creating new tools, engines, etc to help us create that content. Take the moon sim, for example. That's not something we could realistically create. It would require being loaded as a sim. I'm not talking about sculptures and buildings. I'm talking about the hardware and the engines to get the job done. That comes from LL, not the player. All games are eventually replaced.

Even something as simple as the current engines, such as the building engine, should receive new tools, etc. If Linden Labs doesn't wish to be in the business of creating content, that's fine, because someone else will. Someone else will create something similar people would be happy to pay for. Just like any other hardware and software, SL needs to change and upgrade hardware and software to continue holding people's interest.

Agreed. I'm not sre exactly what those tools would look like or exactly what affect they would have on the grid, but I agree with your thoughts.

It isnt hard to understand, I just dont believe your assertion.

btw, I have no problem with Free Accounts, I just don't think we need to construct arguments like yours to justify them.

edit to add: I am wrong to say that you are incorrect in your assertion about some countries/regions of the globe. I still think that Those facts are insignificant to the growth of Second Life and they are not a useful justification for Free Basic Accounts.

Residents create new content and new zones. That's why SL includes all the tools necessary for that. Try going around somewhere that isn't in the "popular places" list - there's plenty of good stuff out there to be found. Look up "Independent Island", it's a rental place that's just been opened in the style of a tropical island with some actual thought put into the design, giving navigatable waterways and suchlike. Much more interesting than square plots back-to-back trying to squeeze as much as possible out of an island, like many "rentals".

Broccoli

Problems are everyone is going to extremes here. Some to counter the extremes of the other and noone is looking towards the middle. Most are saying "get rid of the freeloaders." without any concern that there might be different situations (like me and kitty talking about my free account). This idea orgional started is a good idea in theory but:

A) Most accounts currently "free" and currently "made" would be grandfathered. If not there would be a mass exodius and you would not receive that $10 a year even which might be worse when you figure that person has a paying account (either premium or L$ buyer) that most likly they yanked as well...or only kept that one cause it is economical.

B) This will not stop griefers infact this could have a reverse effect. "Hey I paid 10 bucks where's my protection". Linden Labs might be a little less effective on the ban stick and hitting people with it. Though maybe an ugly stick....

C) The fact that there are more signups after the 10 fee was dropped shows that more people are willing to even try out SL since it is free which as a seller of items means more money for me. Granted that is very generic but the physical numbers (not percentage) I think we can all agree does go up (I hope we can).

I have met many a wonderful free account who activly participate in the world of SL and have had positive, wonderful influences on my life. Many would pay the 10 bucks to play if reinstated and they had to pay AFTER the fact...but most likly would never have come in the first place had the charge of been there. As even a beta tester of online games it took me a long time to be convinced to pay the 10 USD fee to play SL. In all honesty I doubt I would ever change the fact that we have these free accounts. It does alot for the "unpaid" factor. Those things you can't measure with money.

Every game has bugs, every game has griefers, every game has drama if you dig deep enough. SL is different and makes these issues ten fold the problem but it also makes it ten fold the challenge. Be it game, chat room, or forums these problems will always exsist even if you go pay. During the 10 dollar fee there was a person named Torley Torgeson (someone hit me if I misspelled last name). She was a character. Unique, bright, smart, and a truly unique person (yes I said unique twice). Course we all know she became the Torley we know today. I can't speak for if Torley ever bought L$ via GOM or Lindex but it was almost a myth that she suppossedly never did cause "her personality was payment enough." How many of these types do you think are out there now...if you ask me alot more then during the 10 USD registration fee. They might not be as watermelony as Torley or as contagiously excitable as she is but they are unique and something that sticks with you.

Also on a added soppy mushy holiday thingie maybe we should be thinking like it's Xmas. I mean sometimes giving does mean not getting that shiny new bike for yourself...but maybe you get something better in return.

Or we can continue arguing over that which I am sure LL has been and is bashing thier brains over in a conference right now. "how to get more money outta us."

PS if anythings sounds harsh I'm sorry just trying to get a point across and I am not trying to be PC just honest and heartfelt. ^_^

I can see why people would get upset at their fees being raised (such as the case of islands, i'm sure the mainland won't be far behind) and yet people with free unverified accounts have no such increase. It would just be plain better business to work on a system that takes this into consideration, even if after a trial period, it's something like a one-time lifetime fee for a basic account it would help. Perhaps even something like allowing a premium member to vouch for an unverified account and exempt that account from such a fee.

The reason for the increase in the islands has nothing to do with "other residesnts' as I understand. It was all stemming around hte increase costs associated with buying the server, setting up the server, increased maintence, extra lindens 9for concierge), and also the fact that private islands get increased security. To my knowledge also the older Private Islands were grandfathered.

With that aside if LL was to say tommarrow they were going to do the same to mainland yes I agree with you BUT then why don't all the accounts give up thier 50/500/350 L$ stripends or the older accounts give up thier free 4096 tier? I am sure that is costing as well. The free accounts lost the right to stripend and starter L$ when they were made which forces them to have to use the Linden X. They don't have an increase, they have a decrease which linden labs hopes will cause them to use the lindex. This is also why dwell payments were removed. Free accounts were getting to much money, people argued, and so it was removed.

Everyone keeps blaming free accounts. But until everyone is similar to a free account can we really be throw the stones here? Paid accounts and such get a things they don't and more then just land. When we all get no free land, no stripend, and are all forced to use the lindex or to become content creators, entertainers, etc then I think people can start throwing stones.

There's been some back and forth about the reason. On the one hand, the arguement that since estates have more functionality people should/would be/are willing to pay more to have one, then on the other hand that it seems that LL isn't managing to make a profit but barely breaking even. (Grandfathering currentlly only extends to the end of 2007 btw)

The reason why mainland hasn't suffered a similar increase was stated to be due to not having the technical measures in place for it (it's burried in one blog post's comments).

My personal guess is that tier is simply the easiest to hike up as well, since someone who's already paying is likely to just grumble a bit and then pay up. The majority of the unverifieds, when suddenly asked to actually contribute or verify, would just pack up and go look for the next free thing so there's just no money to be had there.

You still get the L$ 250 starting money, as long as you verify when signing up. I do agree that new verified basics should still get the L$ 50 stipend though. It would give people some incentive to verify at least.
In May, LL's (well, Philip's) positiion was that stipends were a good thing, because it meant that residents were "buying L$" from LL instead of through the LindeX. I don't think they ever really adequately explained why there was a sudden need to start cutting premium stipends. The only real reason I have my premium is for the stipend, it's far cheaper than buying the same amount and LL gets the money, instead of another resident.

Tier accounts for 70% of LL's income and somehow I don't think that the 40,000 or so landowners are responsible for 70% of the cost of operating LL or SL.

You also can't conveniently lump verified basics and unverifieds into one "free accounts" category. Verifieds basics contribute financially by buying and spending L$ in-world, and as long as your ratio of spending vs non-spending is good, it doesn't matter that someone doesn't buy any L$ in a given month, someone else makes up for it.

well I do understand that the numbers aren't equal the fact that we are demadning only one group to sacrifice when others have yet to sacrifice (except Private Island owners paying more which I think we all can understand). Also while I do agree ther are those unverifieds that never will buy L$ let's be honest how many out there are alts of another player (legit, accidental, or otherwise) and most likly use that alt to either buy L$ or has a buisness and just transfers over L$.

I dont know, I'd much rather they try other venues before jacking up my prices. I don't think I would pay much more than I already am. I would just cancel my premium and go play something else. I would be very sad, however. This game has re-sparked my creativity that 9 years of playing MMOG's had killed. <lol>

Now see this shows a trend people in SL seem to have. Which is that "not in my back yard" ideal. I mean look at what the various account types get that could be reduced before we hit an already poor group.

1) Lifetime member get 4096 land free of charge (yes they paid for it but they got thier money out of it already)

2) Premium and older basic accounts get stripend (they should have to buy from lindex). This function along can help pay for a premium account within a year normally (not sure about the new 300 L$ ones though)

3) Fighting for free accounts is kinda a catch 22. They can't talk here (as stated before.) and if you have an alt of one you kinda have to admit it. (you guys have been great about not forcing admitting who my alt's name is. Most would have demanded to know, blah, blah blah.)

I'm really not for or against change but when you hit my pocket book be it my free account or my paid accounts I will demand a good reason with solid proof this will work. Free accounts are getting the way of being discriminated against in mass and it's getting kinda sad. When I walk around on a free account I feel diseased or of another race cause noone talks to you if you can get into places (due to that verified/unverified thing.)

As a side note I'm half tempted to make another alt as right now I think I can again since I just changed addresses. Just to see the differences. Darn my curiosity...I have to many alts as it is (and still under the SL allowed limits).

I don't consider it a 'not in my backyard' thing. Even if the guy with the unverified account is buying and selling on the lindex, so do I. In fact, I'm also paying a tier fee and monthly fee on top of whatever linden I purchase. So saying they 'they contribute as well' really doesn't cut it.

Also, I'd like to point out that I'm not an old school SL player. I just started playing a month ago. I was frankly shocked at the idea of unverified accounts and how easy it would be to fake info. That right there costs more money than it makes.


edit: I'd also like to point out that 300 bucks isn't squat compared to the price of goods. It basically means I'm paying 8.87 a month for the 'right to own land' and buying 1.12 in linden. Why suggest premium members should have to buy from the lindex when they are the ones already paying monthly?

If LL wants to double the price of a premium (not tier, just the account) with the guarantee that any valid question will be answered and resolved within 24 hours then you have a price increase for a valid reason.

However, hiking up the prices of a minority who are already paying their way so that a majority can continue to remain free just isn't a valid reason. LL's idea of having open access to everyone is very noble and wonderful in an overly commercial RL world, however once it's clear that most people are just abusing your open door policy by never wanting to contibute back because they simply don't have to, it's time to change back again.

Pick 100 random people who started in May-June (the time I started so I happen to know a lot of those) and see how many have payment info used. Then pick 100 random people who started in July and see how many even have info on file, let alone used.

Where did the notion that unverifieds are poor suddenly come from?

I can't claim that I wouldn't want the lifetime deal either, but I wasn't around, and from what I understand, those people paid a not so small sum for something that could have collapsed the next day. And I don't think there are really that many charter members around that asking them to pay for their 4096m² is going to have a signficiant impact on LL's current earnings.

Not sure what right anyone would have to ask who your alt is, or why they'd want to? Is there something special about this alt we should know? I'm curious now .

I'm not sure if you're aware, but there were unverifieds before open sign-ups, they're the people who verified by phone (they didn't/don't get a weekly stipend btw). The problem is that unverifieds really should be a minority like they used to be before. There just aren't that many people who can't verify for a real, legitimate reason.

(Edited because my evil keyboard changes letters around all by itself *looks for a halo emoticon* How do you do that nice "Edited because" all the way at the bottom anyway? )

Not sure if you're intending valid to mean "logically correct", "effective" or "relevant and meaningful" regardless...

LL has their own reasons for setting their service standards, adjusting prices or determining admittance conditions... and from their perspective their reasons for those decisions may be perfectly valid. (for them)

As customers we can bitch and complain about it all we want. We can storm out. Customer attrition is a *very* common thing in online worlds. Life goes on... as long as more new paying customers replace those that left.

Looking at the numbers.... I'd say of the unverifieds that stick around for at least a month: 1 in 10 upgrade to "payment info used" to buy L$. 1 in 100 may rent land. 1 in 1000 may go premium and buy land.

The rest fade away. And minus the 'search' aspects of the finder, offline avatars don't generate lag.

It would be interesting to see what percentages of the active and ONLINE population are premium, verified and unverified.


For what it's worth... all the land of all charter members would likely fit on fewer than 10 regions... out of the 4000 or so that exist. Supporting the handful of charter members is likely no more expensive than keeping some fraction of the reserved 'govenor linden land' off the auction block.