Fed up... bailing out

Go to bed?

It's not me that owns the Island you tosser - try reading.

And Travis - thank god for you,one sane person in a forum full of high school drop outs.

Travis, I do understand where you are coming from . In your particular case the event changes hurt you and thats clear. I think it sucks that you can't do what you used to do. I was speaking more about the sim owners.

I feel I have to correct this:

1. Any sim with 120 land owners would become lag nightmare with result that nobody wanted to live there.

2. Nobody pay $10 per month for 512sqm. This figure is nonsense.

3. You just assume that sims are always 100% sold out.

You also don't take into account transaction fees that are quite significant when dealing with things like PayPal.

Reality is more like this:

8 parcels of 8192sqm, 40$ each: 320 $
20% of land unsold: 0.8 * 320: 256$
minus 7% transaction fees: 238$
minus 10% costs for protected land, park sims on continent etc: 214$
minus 195$ tier fee: 19$

So instead of 1000$ revenue per month we quickly arrive at 19$ in one 80% sold out sim.

In one sim with 2048sqm parcels it would be 126$, but this means managing 32 land owners and hunting lag object day and night! Who wants do this for 4$ per day? And how many month to pay back 980$ purchase price of sim?

And did we discuss PayPal chargebacks, risk or tax yet?

Our business plan is based on at least 100 sims within next 12 months and land price that helps to offset initial investment in sims. It is also based on employee cost and tax conditions in China, where we plan to incorporate this summer. Being teacher I look forward to return to my hometown's foreign language university and train students, this time not in English language but in Second Life land management and "Ansheland" customer support

Anshe,

Are you saying that your only making a 19$ profit per Island? If this is really the case, then you are one crazy lady. There is no way in hell I would put up with all the stress of what you described for that little profit.

MJ

In order to hold events, you must have land.

In order to help alleviate the lag associated with many AV's, you must have a lot of land.

The discussion here is community/event versus marketing/selling of land.

Many are holding large portions of land so they can host events and create a community.

Some are holding large portions of land simply for reselling it and making a very nice profit by simply using the land option tools, slicing apart the land, putting up signs and reselling it.

Community-based projects take up a lot more time, more organization, more work -- but unfortunately these individuals are paying the same price for land as those who are simply owning and reselling it -- without a true incentive to continue, i.e., land sales versus daily dwell payouts, well, there is no comparison.

My congrats to those of you who have tried to create a community here in a market-based economy out of your own wallet.

But if your wallet is not thick, if the economic changes continue to benefit only those here to make real USD; then find another hobby and create another community somewhere else. LL has been asked for two years to change the award system, they have been asked if they desire a community and/or a market sociaty.

When SL no longer is fun, when it is more frustrating with every turn -- then leave and take some time away from it. Then you can decide with a clear head whether or not it is worth $200 for your community -- realizing that you will never make money and/or your initial investment back simply by creating and hosting events.

Once was a magical place
Over time it was lost
Price increased the cost
Now the fortune of the kingdom
Is locked up in its dungeon vaults
The castle floor ties in traps
With coiled wires set back
Decoyed by the old cheese
Now the drawbridge has been lifted
As the millions
They drop to their knees
They pay homage to a king
Whose dreams are burried
In their minds
His tears are frozen stiff
Icicles drip from his eyes

The cold wind blows as it snows
On those who fight to get in
On heads that are small
Disillusioned as they enter
They're unaware what's
Behind castle walls
But now it's written in stone
The king has been overthrown
By jesterly fools
And the power of the people
Shall come to believe they do rule

They pay homage to a king
Whose dreams are buried
In their minds
His tears are frozen stiff
Icicles drip from his eyes
Welcome to the tragic kingdom
Cornfields of popcorn
Have yet to spring open

Have they lost their heads
Or are they just all blind mice
We've heard all their stories
One too many times
Hypnotized by fireflies
That glow in the dark
Midgets that disguise themselves
As tiny little dwarfs
The parade that's electrical
It serves no real purpose
Just takes up a lot of juice
Just to impress us

They pay homage to a king
Whose dreams are burried
In their minds
His tears are frozen stiff
Icicles drip from his eyes

Ohh, they drip from his eyes
Into the night
They drip from his eyes

Welcome to the tragic kingdom
Cornfields of popcorn
Have yet to spring open

Welcome to the tragic kingdom (faster)
Welcome to the tragic kingdom (faster)
Welcome to the tragic kingdom (faster)
Welcome to the tragic kingdom (faster)
Welcome to the tragic kingdom (faster)
Welcome to the tragic kingdom (faster)
Welcome to the tragic kingdom (faster)
Welcome to the tragic kingdom (faster)

Song Performed by No Doubt, "Tragic Kingdom" CD

ditto.

LMAO I find it rather funny reading your posts while you are trying to preach to others... All this coming from someone that sees no problem with profiting off of other peoples work. Hypocrite?

Maybe LL will decide to abandon the land-based economy for a content-creative based economy where the artists, poets, builders, sculptors, writes, mystics, philosophers will prosper in dazzling brilliance and wealth!

Stay tuned - Second Life, where today's rich can be tomorrow's paupers!

May a million gardens bloom!

Well said Sox, I dont know why people think that club owners make money... people ask me that all the time... I am thining to myself... ummm is your head on straight? How in the heck can anyone profit from a club unless it is #1 in dwell, no employees and on a 512m plot... Grr!

Definately agree that Anshe is understating profit. She has good motivation to - so others dont enter the biz.

I told you along time ago The Exodus has begun when the first Policy change happened; people ignored me and you keep ignoring what is evident; the attack on the Entertainment Industry and Land Policy is clear. Now you stand up and fight, fight with all your might! And also like I said previously; LL will reap what they soe in the end. Stifle Entertainment and put up Land Road Blocks to the favorable few and you will lose the majority.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Best Regards
Blake Rockwell
Arts and Entertainment Representative.

I'm not unsympathetic to how these changes affect someone like Tavis, but... if you host the same events at the same time every day can't it be argued that those really aren't events? It's just business as usual. There are other ways to advertise. If someone starts Tringo every hour on the hour 7 days a week, they're not having events. They're a full time Tringo parlor. Posting 24 Tringo events daily would be an abuse of the event listings.

I can understand Event Hosting Post limitations, however; there is much more involved concerning these policies.

Ah forget it actually, everybody's business is their own and analysing it here achieves nowt anyway.

Anshe move to Canada instead eh!

I agree with this completely Blake, and I think this is why the limits are being imposed. The few were drowning out the many.

*wonders how much an average Sim costs*

i do think ll may abandon land management and social engineering in favour of concentrating on the software. if anshe and her staff can manage 100 sims, a small staff of lindens, if properly organized, can manage the day-to-day affairs of a few dozen mainland sims. would it be nice if the mainland was divided into zones that each had an individual linden overlord with a small staff of liasons that worked with those residents to solve "local" problems? or does that sound too intrusive and governmental. it may just seem too organized.

it works pretty well for boardman and brown. eventually, perhaps all the land in second life will be owned by a few lords and ladies that will rent to the rest of us and be ll's contact people when things go wrong and need fixing.

I'm not sure about the first part of your speculation but it wouldn't surprise me to see something like what I quoted. It would make a lot of sense to have "beat cops" who patrol and service specific geographical areas. I don't think it's needed yet but as the world gets ever bigger that could be a really cool way to handle things.

my thinking is that ll might decide that it's a good idea to conduct all land management through a small group of middlepeople. to appease the masses, they'd first have to subdivide the existing mainland regions and grant them to a set of lindens. they'd still be royally managed so the oldbies could live with that. they'd at the same time have to stop adding to the mainlands so that the privately managed continents could grow.

finally, they'd be able to parcel the management of the, then, small number of mainland sims private land management firms. most everyone would either be conditioned to such an arrangement by that time or would form their own little group to bid on one of the mainland contracts.

*disclaimer: this is pure speculation assembled from the ideas presented in this thread. i have no inside track on linden lab planning or ideas.

you guys have to think of the general public as well... the people with basic accounts, or ven those who have small premium accounts aren't rich. They can't afford large parcels of land, nor can they afford top of the line pc's required to visit these clubs or malls, or sometimes, even just live on most of the mainland.

There are those us us who NEED to live and work in someplace without the dozens of laggy scripts or lights or music/videos nearby that really DO affect our fun. I mean think about it. If you're trying to do something.. shop, build, design, dance, or even walk.. and you have a fps of less than 5.. how long do you stay before you get frustrated and leave? THAT is the reason many of us have moved to Anshe's islands. After buying our land.... you cannot control what goes up next door.. and have been lagged out. Or we simply fall in love with the beauty and peace of mind that goes with it.

Before I shelled out money to upgrade my pc, I would get a 0.5 fps in any club, Edge and Elite being at the top of the list. It was excruciating to say the least. On my land, where I bought first land when I joined.. it was only slightly higher.. topping out at around 5.0... The advantages of Islands, for those of us on the lower end, is the ability to do something so simple as walk around without waiting forever to see the avatar move.

Patricks Island, Elite, was where I retreated to when the lag on my land got to be too much because of a new mall put in 2 lots over. The club was faraway enough from the apartments that I could actually carry on a conversation, not to mention work on my things. I will always be grateful for the low rent he offered to those in need of a place to call home, and I will miss the store and Island tremendously...

I also see it from the financial side. A regular person, defined as the majority of SL members, those without huge r/l wallets, simply cannot afford to continue paying huge tier fees if there is no way of at least breaking even. As land prices go up, the value of the Linden dollar goes up, I see alot of people who started this as fun, backing out. and anyone who critices them for doing so, is just plain rude. THAT is their decision to make, not yours.

Are we not a community? do we not all start in the same place? Take advantage of the ideology that anything is possible here? Wasnt' that the draw to SL in the first place? to be able to do in SL what is simply impossible in the real world. How many of you in the real world can own a lot of land that you do in SL with a house and that nice of furniture? How many can own a club, or a whole continent?

As a community we should be supporting each other, not chastizing someone for their opinions and thoughts. You don't all have to agree with each other, but you don't have to be rude about disagreeing. Because someone calls it quits, or because someone thrives in success makes neither a better or worse person. Patrick and Anshe are both wonderful people, both extremely helpful and very kind. Their decisions in their businesses have nothing to do with those qualities as a person and should not be be used to determine who they are.


If you choose to go into the business world in second life, that is a choice you make. You can't blame others for that decision.. As a good business person, you also need to decide when the loss is enough that it's time to call it quits.. at least for the time being. You alone are resonsible for those decisions. Who are we to judge someone for their decisions?

I support Patricks decision, and I commend him for how he handled it. Taking time for questions, having the responsibility to refund the mass amounts of money paid into vendors in a still growing mall, and ever full apartments, as well as the courtesy he gave those people who were in the dark, an explanation.


This alternate world will never thrive as we'd hope it would while we are all divided, fighting against each other. I may sound like I have nieve beliefs, and views... but what is nieve when anything is possible? If anything is possible, why are so many against banding together to make this place better.. not just for everyone, but you also?

over the past few months there have been several changes that have affected the mechanisms that build community in sl:

1. event support was reduced and then went away
   
2. the cost of ratings went up
   
3. the number of events that could be posted per plot of land went down
   

given that these mechanisms were flawed, i'm not specifically annoyed that they went away.

however, the problem that i have is that as flawed as they were, they did support community building efforts, and when they went away nothing was put in their place towards building up or supporting a second life community.

while ll is a business, and needs tangible evidence of success (i.e. $$$), there are also intangible indicators of success, such as word of mouth, community, and happiness. these intangibles support the tangibles.

while big institutions like the voting mechanisms, the dicussions forums, and sl mega businesses do their part to support community. there is an intuition (that is backed up with some empirical evidence) that community begins at smaller scales than that; community begins when people know each other and interact with each other on a persona and repeated fashion.

events and rating were an often poor excuses for people to interact at a personal level, but they were better than no excuse. now as excuses they are weaker than ever.

another mechanism for community is the neighborhood one lives in or the groups one belongs two. but both these mechanisms have been neglected. it is very hard to find a good neighborhood/sim where one's friends can move in with you. it took my group months to gain enough land in a sim to feel we could together live mostly comfortably (e.g. no laggy builds, no ugly eyesores, not an endless laggy party, space enough to build). and the number of groups one can belong to is limited in number so that one can barely express all one's interests through group membership.

also, money/resources does seem to be a limiting factor when doing group activities (e.g. land ownership), holding events (i.e. the more land you have the more evens you can have), and holding contiguous plots of land (i.e. for prims and event space). while a few people can afford to carry all that themselves, there are many more groups what would like to carry that kind of load, but are unable to pool their resources into large resouce blocks comparable to the resource blocks the richest sl residents have.

i think that ll should:

1. make events and ratings more accessible than they currently are
   
2. make it easier for groups to pool their resources (land, events, money, tier, buy private sims)
   
3. remove the cap to the number of groups one can belong to
   
4. and generally support the intangible benefits of community
   

One pie for the overused adage and a second pie for not removing your mittens.