Fed up... bailing out

Thanks Schwanson, I normally don't go for the sky is falling stuff. I supported many of the changes, including putting the economy back into the hands of the players instead of the Lindens. But the latest round of limiting peoples ability to host events, coupled with the lack of communiation before the fact has been really frustrating for some of us. At $270 a month for a GAME (no I don't make money off this game) it's a little more fun when we don't keep losing our liberties. Being a Linden, I assume that you were not in the dark like the rest of us and had some time to prepare.

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Your point was made Newfie, however if I gave you the impression that that is what motivates me, then I gave you the wrong impression. If you truly understand the concept of "community" that surrounded Club Punany as you claim, then you should understand what motivates me.

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Newfie Pendragon - I read all I nead to know about you within ten seconds of reading your blog - your a geek.

Now live and let live I say - who makes blogs slagging off your style of playing Second Life? Not I - Not Patrick.To each his own, and after reading you blog m8 I value your opinion about as much as I value the L$.

I've heard, but dont know if this is true or not, that reading is much more than actually scanning words on a page.I believe it actually means interpretation of those words and coming to an understanding of what is actually written.

Now - what part of WE DONT MAKE ANY MONEY FROM THIS didnt you understand?

I'll make it simple for your obviously biased brain.

When events were supported it was me paying my $150 land tier and my $200 for my radio station and my $30 to stream,it was me building the place,me texturing it,me fitting it out(oooooooo NO coloured lights either, shock horror) and me spending my time there getting it organised.

Linden Labs supported that fact.

THEN it was me doing all of the above AND paying out X amount of money every week for events.

THEN it was me doing all of the above and finding out that my hosts now cant even do it for FUN because Linden Labs say they cant because they dont own the land.

Getting the drift yet Einstein? Starting to see why we're pissed off?

No of course your not - I've read your Blog - you couldnt give a flying f**k what happens to Pat and you came into this thread to have a gloat because he's a club owner.

And for your further information even WITH a cheque from Linden Labs for dwell I was STILL losing money on it.

I never did hear of your club,but what does that matter? This is about what people enjoy doing and not what you THINK they ought to ENJOY as per your blog.

But... if your dwell ranking and money incentives and the amount of money other people make in the game doesn't matter to you... why did you start this thread?

*screams*

Thanks, I was wondering the same thing ...

it's not about the money, but the ability to hold events.
holding event = having fun
rankings are in part an indirect measure one's abilities to hold events and the fun people are having at one's events.

ll is society as run by a market economy.

if you get used to that, things don't seem so bad.

That's why.

Newfie,

I think it's a bit snobbish for anyone to thumb their nose at others who have a different idea of fun. Some people think being famous and having lots of possessions is fun. Some people see a list and want to be number one. So what?

Just because someone isn't as sophisticated as you see yourself, it doesn't mean that they shouldn't be allowed to complain in the forums when their fun is impeded. Ok, so you look down on greedy people- especially greedy people who can't see that they are greedy. Well, not everyone can find their soul or beauty or friendship or whatever it is that you happen to find pleasing in this game. That doesn't mean that their definition of fun isn't important.

More than anything, what IS important is for people like Patrick to post their grievances in the forums when the rules of our SL society change. This is even more true if SL is just a big social experiment. LL depends on our patronage to expand SL and create communities that will attract more people. If people stop giving feedback, then LL will not be able to gauge the possibility of having a massive loss of income. If sim owners start dropping left and right, then this thread might give them an idea of what to expect and they might be persuaded to change their minds.

Obviously LL is a business. As such, they want to capture the broadest demographic possible. If recent changes in SL mean that a certain demographic is dropping off, even if you personally find them undesirable, then it is an issue that LL needs to be made aware of. If SL is skewed into becoming a niche market for only idealistic leftist socialists (or insert your brand of choice), then they will ultimately lose money and that could cripple the expansion of SL.

Really? then why is anyone worried about dwell and placement on the most popular list? Events can still be held and if you parcel up the land many people can hold events.

Don't get me wrong I don't think LL should have messed with the events schedule but don't pretentd its not about dwell and where you fall on the popular places list.

Pat i am really sad to see you go..........you are one of the better owners on sl..I got my start with you at elite.......Players like you don`t grow on trees.........Losing one like you Pat is like cancer it speads deep through sl. Good Luck My friend..........

Usagi-san

The way I read it, the reason Patrick started this thread was to vent his frustrations over the Lindens changing the rules of play in ways that vastly benefit some and vastly harm others. I respectfully disagree if you think otherwise.

Dwell and one's spot on the favorite places list *are* important - in some ways, they're a measure of success where few quantifiable metrics exist. Much of Patrick's clientele uses that as a metric as he does. Your own measure of success may be vastly different - and that's cool... but there's nothing wrong with Patrick's as well.

What these changes do - is *grossly* benefit those who have the resources to game the new system - and harm those who abide by it. I'm just as frustrated about it, for all the reasons above.

I am reassured by the fact that you expended an entire ten seconds to form your well-reasoned, articulate, and thoughtful opinion.



Yep I get it very well. Only thing is, my point is that it's not the responsibility nor the obiligation of LL to provide any player's 'fun'. Even if said player spent a lot of money. Even if said player put a lot of time and effort into it. The role of LL was to provide hosting and sim space. Its responsibility ended at that line. Event support, dwelloper awards, etc., they're all nice...but was never a guarantee.



Would you like some white wine with your red herring?

Perhaps you should take more than ten seconds and actually read the posts I made here, which *all* are about dwelloper incentives, top lists, and dwell. At no point did I make any statement about it being a club; that was *your* assertion. It might as well be a Tringo parlor, or a karaoke bar, or line-dancing squirrels for all it mattered.



What I think in clubs is irrelevant, even though I do think we could do far better than clubs as the location-to-be. What *is* relevant is your attempts to sidetrack the real matter, which is a sim owner closing their island 'in protest' of no longer getting special rewards and incentives that are given to no more than a small handful of people of out of entire SL populace.

Very few people actually get on the top lists, or get any incentive award, or even get near it. When it then gets complained about because a one group is no longer on tops of that list, it's little more than an affront to those that *also* put in time, money and effort, yet never appear on that golden radar. Perhaps if your focus wasn't always on chewing on that silver spoon, you'd be more able to focus on the more realistic and more fulfilling ways to enjoy SL.


- Newfie

Linden Lab has consistently made the rich richer and the poor poorer since January 2004. It kills me each time the topic is brought up because it took me a long time to come to terms with that fact, and apparently a lot of people are still coming to terms.

Look. LL is a corporation. It's like Walmart. The game will continue to change and support Walmart-like policies. Expect the poor to be flushed out. Expect the rich to prevail.

So, as I see it, here's the latest LL development: Hand over your money to the people who are already wealthy, and, while it costs less than what you'd be paying LL, you are maintaining your lower class position while simultaneously maintaining your "landlord" (for lack of a better term)'s upper class position.

What the fuck else is new, seriously.

I understand that ...but how exactly does it benifit some and hurt others? He has a sim he could and did cut up the land for multiple events as I read it.



I thought we were talking about getting together with friends and having fun? What does that have to do with the popular places list and dwell? If people were coming before and as I read it came even after whats the problem? I really don't have any metric for success and I realize everyone has a differnt idea about being successful but I thought the whole point was gathering friends and fun? Does it matter if you are #1 on the list or 43 ...if the sdame people are coming to your event and your having fun isn't that successful if thats what you were looking for?


How has this grossly benefitted someone...I agree the event system is screwed up but even Patrick said he cut up his land to hold multiple events. I would think someone that has the land such as a sim would be benefitted in a way whreas the the guy who only has 2048m2 is kinda screwed ....

While as many of you know (nothing against you Patrick), I would love to see Club Elite burnt to the ground and dance on its ashes, this whole thing actually makes me sad. I am normally very supportive of Linden Lab and have a good relationship with them. However, I have to say, the latest event changes are stupid, destructive, and seem to have no forethought other than to silence people whining about too much tringo. Linden Lab is not subsidizing the events, and they should honestly stay the hell out of the content and or hosting of the events, as long as they are within the TOS.

I am sorry you are so frustrated by this, Patrick, and I respect you for standing up in the only way you can, with your wallet. Unfortunately, I don't think it will do much, but if enough people find it cumbersome enough to hold events, and there is enough disruption from these stupid new policies, then they will start to notice it. I won't even begin to go into what I think of the new land sale policy on private islands - Daemioth summed up my feelings pretty well.

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"THEN it was me doing all of the above AND paying out X amount of money every week for events.

THEN it was me doing all of the above and finding out that my hosts now cant even do it for FUN because Linden Labs say they cant because they dont own the land. "
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Despite being a new player and not understanding much, and in spite of knowing that, yes, all changes in all games do cause a lot of upset - the two things I quoted above I still feel are bad.

Maybe that's because as a new player, I know most of the options available in game are not available to me unless I BUY THEM somehow with REAL LIFE money which I don't want to do. (I tend to believe more in an everyone-pays-the-same-amount-a-month-and-plays-the-same-game model.)

But that's neither here nor there. The point is, if I HAD been entertaining the idea of somehow eventually providing entertainment for other players (which I am very good at, by the way), the two points I quoted above have been, personally, depressing to me, and make me less likely to have any such ambition. I just couldn't afford it.

I mean, it was already hard. But without event subsidies of any kind, and now with this new ridiculous set-up about who can post events and how many, it is looking totally not worth it.

And think about it: How does one make money in this game? Three main ways, as far as I can tell. You dabble in real estate; you make and sell items; or you collect dwell from events. (Not sure how those other monetary awards work.)

The dwell apparently is kinda pitiful anyway. And think about it - the people who run events are NOT likely to concurrently be the same people making money from real estate or creating items. They just aren't the same kind of people. They are busy doing events and providing entertainment, not messing around with prims and scripts (as I am doing, since I figured out early on I couldn't afford to provide entertainment, so see, they already lost me and what I could have given the game), or making big bucks by buying up islands and leasing them out or whatever.

Looks to me like some of those dealing in real estate are the ones raking in the dough. Coming in second, maybe, are successful content creators, who can set their own price for their wares. Sucking the hind teat are those providing entertainment. Little wonder I'm not doing the Game Show Channel here.

(I won't be offended if you correct me on any of that; as I said, I'm new and don't know much, but those are my impressions.)

Real estate and creating make money. But it looks like those in the entertainment business just keep having things taken away from them.

I think, also, that it is ALWAYS overlooked in this dog-eat-dog game that players who don't like playing with real estate, and who aren't capable of creating content, are absolutely dependent on having contests and clubs and bingo games and whatnot to go to in order to afford the items they wish to buy - such as land from the real estate dealers and content from the content creaters.

They DEPEND on the clubs and the tringo events and all that kind of thing. (Besides, they find that kind of thing FUN, and isn't a game supposed to be about fun?)

I really think the game is like a big bottle. At the bottom are the real estate people, then a layer of content creators, and toward the top, the entertainment providers, doing the contests and other things that offer money rewards. Then, up there in the bottleneck, are all the new players struggling to get in - who MUST feed off the entertainment and contest people, in order to make a living to afford any of the content or land further on down in the bottle.

Well, that top level is getting sucked dry. The new players funneling through the bottleneck don't have enough to feed on. And may go away. Thus not going further down the bottle to buy your land or your content. GOING AWAY.

These are the observations of a new player. As I said, I don't know much about any of this. But I sure do have the real good experience of being a new player, jousting for position at that bottleneck.

It's a mistake to suck dry the entertainment people, or their ability to provide contests and other incentives to new players and to older players not in any of these three businesses.

coco

REAL SUCCESS is based on the how your friends and event attendees feel afterwards. IF they are happy and had a good time.. tis all that matters and should. Isnt that the real point?


I personally think if someone is going to own a sim and pay the 195 US every month, they do not depend on making an income and bail when they cant. Only a very few select in this game have been able to do that.

many have forgotten what this game is and tis really a shame when all we are worried about is dwell and popularity. Kinda reminds me of highschool.

Talan, sorry, man - I just don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this one. As far as how I believe this policy helps some, and harms others, consider the following:

1st - For the Clientelle that regularly goes to clubs - a busy event is "fun", and a not-so-well attended event with no one talking "is lame". Keep in mind, I'm not referring to you - I'm referring to Patrick's target audience, which appears to be in abundance in SL.

The spot on the favorite places list - affects this - because at least among this particular clientelle - they flock to the places that are perceived as "busy", and avoid the "quiet" ones. So - the higher you get your dwell, the more successful (busy) your events are, which raises your dwell, which makes events more successful - and so on, and so on.


2nd - Here's how it harms some, and helps others:

I own a club called the Shelter on 4000m of land - every prim I have is sacred, and I can't subdivide. Prior to the events changes, I did 4-6 events a day, typically consisting of: Newbie Welcome, Freebie Exchange, There/TSO Gathering, Game Show, plus some volunteer hosted events. I dislike Tringo, and have a Zoey Jade aversion to Pixelsex - so you won't find any of that at my place. I have unpaid volunteers that donate their time because they believe in what we're doing - who used to post their own random events throughout the day (typically AV contests) - but now cannot.

Right now - the calendar will only let me post 2-3 events per day. I say 2-3 - because the 24 hour limit screws me if I have a recurring event every day (which I do). This could be avoided if they would have chosen a time such as 23.9 hours - but they didn't.

Meanwhile, the current "Top 3" in favorite places, all of which own a full sim - have subdivided their land into enough parcels where they can each schedule 10 events or more per day - mostly Tringo.

What has happened now - is the Shelter - which formerly remained on the Popular Places list for 8 months with our little 4000m property - has dropped so low that its laughable. (If it sounds like I'm proud of that as an acheivement - I am).

The "Top 3" - growing strong - no issues. They're better than before.

As a direct result - my 3 events I did tonight - the first two bombed horribly. Keep in mind - I've been doing the same 4 events every day - and they strangely only began bombing after the events changes.

If this continues, I predict my "traffic" will continue to plummet - until it reaches a maintenance level around 3000 or 4000. The big places are enjoying dwell of 30,000. My events will take a direct hit in attendance as a result - which kinda takes some of my joy out of having them.

Tya - "success" is a subjective term. You're welcome to your own definition, but mine differs from yours. And I think the world is big enough for both of our definitions.

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Thought this might be relevant

absolutely

~T

I've never seen you in world or any of your creations.

Who the hell are you?

Anyway --

So you bought a whole sim and now you can't afford it anymore because the game is no longer in your court. It was fun while it lasted I hope.

I couldn't even imagine buying a sim... I mourn your loss.

If you're going to leave entirely... well I'm not gonna be fake. I don't even know you, have never been to your island, and would never even to think to associate you with the success of SL in any way. So uh... don't let the door kick you in the behind and maybe you'll come back.

All the best.

Cheers.

Oy. If that doesn't start flames I don't know what will...

/covers self in Nomex and sits back in the bleachers

haney is gone...