So it seems they got Saddam.

I couldn't resist, but, didn't Jefferson own slaves? I mean, ya know...hmmm...the "great" Humanist seemed to have some limits to some humans, eh?

Squeedoo....yes he owned slaves, but that really isnt relevent. Jefferson made many statements regarding ownership of slaves and how he felt philosophically about them. Your point is not really relevent, so dont get too excited about thinking that you have said something important, or that you pwnd me..lol

nice try though, did you dig through your 3rd grade textbook to find that bit of information?

Squeedoo, it's true, Jefferson did not live up to his own principles. Does that make those principles wrong?

Next time you get a chance, please sit down and *read* the Declaration. Take the time to understand what it means; and how revolutionary those sentiments were at a time when people still believed in the divine right of kings.

And as you go down the list of signers, realize that each man who put his name to this document *knew* that if their cause failed, he would be executed for treason. These were privileged men, who could have chosen to live a life of ease; and they risked it all for the sake of the principles embodied in the Declaration that Jefferson wrote.

One can be flawed -- even deeply so -- and yet still believe, and do, great things.

(BTW, anyone still wondering why I chose the name 'Liberty'?)

Great posts liberty. You are wonderfully knowledgeable and eloquent. It is a pleasure to have encountered you in these forums.

btw, your retort to squeedo has made me ashamed that I didnt put as much thought into my response. Thank you for responding to his statement in an appropriate way. Your example will guide me in the futute, I hope

I don't trust two-faced people, you know, even if it is common. Although, the same could be said about Saddam...he is a bad man, but he DID take care of the people of his hometown...which is why they're moruning him right now...

Oh and to answer Champie....

1) I'm not a boy, so please stop shoving your ignorance around.

2) Everytime I heard you call Jefferson the "great humanist", it personally made me puke. You give him WAY too much credit. Yes, he did write the Declaration, but that doesn't make him great. Sometimes a person's personal actions speak louder than the public ones.

Oh, and 3) Why art thou attacking me? Scared of being disagreed with? Well, tough nuts, it's gonna happen all of the time, Champ.

In Jefferson's defense, he also freed his slaves in his will. Unfortunately he owed people money when he died so that got overruled in court and they were sold off to pay his expenses.... but at least he made the effort.

*looks up at Corwin's response* He was a bit late in my opinion...-_-

But, really.....about this whole Saddam thing.

The first time I saw the headlines (or heard, my pastor announced it to the church), I though, "Ah naw, they gotta be really short on stories to post THIS whopper!"

Then, after that, I saw his picture...and lemme tell you, he looked just pitiful.

I mean, I felt real sorry for 'im.

Yes, yes, I know his history, he's a bad bad man, yeah.

But, I couldn't help but feel sorry for him. He looked like a mess...

I really don't know what will become of all of this, but I coulda sworn I saw that weirdo look in Bush's eye during his presidential press conference.

I didnt suggest that you were a boy..I suggested that you looked back in some very elementary collection of facts (facts that anyone would know if they knew anything about the discussion we are having here). It seems that you were a bit defensive about that..not my problem.

I dont see how that makes me ignorant.

So you dont think that Jefferson is a great humanist. That's fine, but you are not just disagreeing with me. Ask any Humanist, or scolar of Humanist people and events.

I responded to you in the manner that I did becasue you "couldn't resist" sharing your "knowledge with me and others. Perhaps I should have just said, "Next time try to resist, it might give the time to think that you aren't making such an insightful remark."

But liberty tesla made it pretty clear that your response to mine was less than invaluable to the discussion.

If I were scared of being disagreed with you wouldn't see me anywhere near these forums. I see that bright and insightful people who obviously have very different views from mine can be found everywhere in these forums. I am happy to be here and look forward to a continued engagement of ideas. Please inform me how that indicates a "fear" of disagreement.

Frankly, I think that Corwin, Chip, and Christopher (those who seem to be in opposition of my views) have made some very good points and observations. I am thankful that they have taken the time to discuss this issue while showing patience with some of my less civil remarks.

You are not exempt from the same sort of consideration that myself and others have shown in this thread. So, please do not insist that I am not willing to engage in a reasonable dialogue.

What is that "weirdo" look you saw in Bush's eye, and what does it indicate to you?

Also, who is two-faced?? Who were you refering to?

Wow! Go hang out at a friend's house for a couple of days and the whole thread explodes into a slugfest... don't have the mental stamina to absorb and respond to everything but I will after a good night's sleep. Not dodging anyone... just haven't been near a computer since monday afternoon.

But just a quick response to Nolan...

I'm by no means a parrot. I absorb all the available information and arrive at my own conclusions. Don't assume because my opinions are strong that they're just borrowed from others. I thought Corwin's response to you was pretty in line with what I'd have said.

As for bringing up car accidents and disease... please refer to this excellent article about our response to 9/11 and how terrorism compares to other far more common and pedestrian threats to our lives.

http://www.csicop.org/si/2002-09/9-11.html

It was written by research scientists at Southwest Research Institute and the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in a magazine about rationalism... hardly extremists. Please read it and tell me why you disagree with their position.

And here's a quick one for Champie and Liberty, RE Thomas Jefferson (just to round him out a bit more)...

Here are a couple other quotes from him...

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - letter to his nephew Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

and Jefferson was a Unitarian, not a Humanist.

"My aim [in compiling Christ's humanitarian maxims] was to justify the character of Jesus against the fictions of his psuedo-followers... the follies, the falsehoods, and the charlatanisms which his biographers father upon him... That Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced." - letter to William Short, August 4th, 1820

"I am anxious to see the doctrine of one god commenced in our state. But the population of my neighborhood is too slender, and is too divided into other sects to maintain any one preacher well. I must therefore be contented to be an Unitarian by myself, although I know there are many around me who would become so, if once they could hear the questions fairly stated." - letter to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, January 8th, 1825

While Unitarianism is probably about as close as you can get to humanism and still be a believer, It involves belief in god, whereas Humanism is purely secular.

Just have to reply to this quickly too... you obviously aren't getting my point at all. Using fear and gloom and doom is exactly what the administration has done to gain support for its wars, so I find it pretty funny that you're accusing me of it. I'm presenting facts. You can react to them how you wish.

Actually YOU ARE WRONG.

They only blocked the countries who refused to help OVER 47 countries provided either troops, or logistical supports, and all of them can get contracts.

This was not a unilateral war, it was a tri lateral war in regards to troops and a multnational war in regards to support.

I guess though without Russia, Germany and France everything is Unilateral right?

So explain to me again how it was about contract money when over 40 nations can bid?

Do you remember the childrens story about i think a hen or something that was making hay and then turning it into bread, the other people or animals or whatever wouldn't help throughout the whole work process but then wanted to eat the bread afterwards. It parrallels nicely here.

JV

10's of thousands seems a bit exaggerated unless you are counting troops as well.

But I'll concede it for now, WHAT ABOUT THE 300,000 PLUS SADDAM KILLED?

funny how 10's of thousands to end a death regime doesn't sound as bad when compared to 300,000 plus....

JV

Exactly the Gov. never made the claim that Saddam was a part of 9/11, they said he supports terror and terrorism, which is a fact. From that statement that he supports terrorism, the left jumped on the bullhorn and started spouting that he said Saddam was a part of 9/11 to disprove and discredit him for something he didn't say.

Saddam sent 10,000 a piece to families of suicide palestinian bombers.

JV

You know you can't have it both ways Misnomer, California is in a huge budget crisis, I won't say whether he's cutting the right things or not. But something has to be cut no? he has a hard job and things need to be cut. Perhaps he knows of inefficiencies in those departments that you don't? Just a little possible maybe?

Just a thought.

JV

Chip man, we've gotten into debate before I don't remember you resorting to this crap. Your better than ad hominem attacks.

I don't agree with bush 100%. His policies on Israel, Taiwan, and the Medicare package are atrocious, so am I a Bush stooge for supporting the war?

That attack you just made is such a fallacy and a way to ignore rational debate. I know you are better than that and I hope you are just tired.

JV

Thank you very much for this. The US is actually one of the smaller buyers of Iraqi oil. I can get the charts if I must but I'm tired right now.

France is a much larger purchaser and had many monetary issues related to Iraq and a reason NOT TO GO TO WAR BASED ON THEM.

But noone complains about that corruption.

Basically your facts can be looked at in 2 ways, it all depends in your perception, if you are the type to be more suspicious of republicans and government in general, believing that we were lied to is probably easier for you to believe than me.

You would all do well to take a class in perceptions. And how our beliefs and lives can shape how we view the same situations in different ways.

There is no way to know at this point who is right.

My basis is, we don't know if Bush is an evil nazi fascist like you guys like to call him, so i tend to believe he isn't. But whether he is or not, Saddam being out of power is a good thing.

JV

BRAVO, BRILLIANT AND SAID MUCH BETTER THAN I COULD.

My friend, I don't care what you believe as long as your nota hypocrite.

You believe Bush deserted the Air National Guard, fine so be it, Clinton was a draft dodger.

You have to apply the same rules universally or else you are a hypocrite and noone can take you seriously.

BTW he was elected, the people have never elected a single president in the United States, the Electoral College does. If you dont like that fight to get it changed, but face the fact that he was elected legally.

JV

I'm not changing my point of view, but I found a very interesting essay about the roots of neo-conservatism and how it applies to the Iraq war.

check it out here
NeoConservative Mind Control and War

I'm not trying to make any point with this, just putting it out there for anyone interested in it.


but I would like to add this from Robert F. Kennedy

You're right JV. That was a very cranky post... however it was in response to one that was incredibly patronizing. As I said later on, if that's the tact you (meaning who I was responding to) want to take, that's what you'll get in return. Champie and I kissed and made up, so no harm, no foul... but I agree with your sentiment. I went a bit over the top in trying to point out the tone I felt I was receiving.

Because we don't know that, and the peoples right to choose, even a bad person is better than them being forced to live with a bad person.

JV

Actually I know someone who met the Grandson of the former King of Iraq and everyone that met him and many of the Iraqi's believe that he would make a perfect leader (not as king, but as an elected leader).

JV

Man I must talk alot because since Go Live I have probably only been active in SL for like 1 or 2 months and I still have a post count keeping up with people that were around when i was really active....

hehe