So it seems they got Saddam.

remind me to raise your salary Eggy

aw..it's over?

I'll make sure I plop a Negative Rating machine near my residence so you all can negatively rate me...lol...you wont even have the opportunity to positively rate, why waste prims on something that will never be used...hehe

Champie out and late for work (I have a flexible make your own schedule, so I wont get demerits or write up)

damn, good job Chip. I never expected anyone here to mention PNAC!

It drives me crazy every time peopl estart going on about whether Sadaam is dead, WMD will be found, oil is stolen by Brown and Root or whoever, or Iraqis are "freed". The TRUTH of the matter is that this whole thing was planned 20 years ago by Wolfovitz. This is simply world domination. America above all others - even at the expense of all of America's friends. Sets us up for a real rough decade :-/

So, thanks again Chris. Everyone should run to the Project for a New American Century web site and read it all the way through.

We will NEVER leave Iraq. The reason we went there in the first place was to create a forward military base. We'll have people stationed there for the next 50 years.

Wow, I cant resist...

world domination planned by Wolferitz 20 years ago...

So, should we have left Europe after WW2 or stayed there for 50 years? After all, the Soviets were our Allies...we should have trusted them no...we wouldnt want to peeve off our "friends" because we know that they always act in the best interest of all people. It really is amazing that our Allies always have better intentions than us, and without all the planning that we do..lol

Man, South Korea would be so much better off if we had just left that area...then N Korea could threaten them as much as they would like, but we wouldn't have to get involved (even though nobody else in the region wants to touch that situation with a 10 foot pole.

And what a waste of time and money in Japan, one of the greatest economic powers in the world. If we had just left Japan alone after WW2 then we wouldnt have to worry about Japanese imports.

I hope your decade is not as bad as you predict, but with the same information stimulus that you receive, I have developed a very positive outlook for the future.

Ok, you win. There are so many good reasons for staying in Iraq.

Gee, makes you wonder why all this good stuff didn't come up during the discussion BEFORE we went over there. And I wonder how many of the dead people over in Iraq - ours and theirs - were bright enough to realize how good it was going to be for us to occupy Iraq.

Maybe it didn't come up because the current administration has the habit of lying to us "for our own good". Maybe it's becasue they lie all the time.

But you don't mind being lied to, do you? If it's REALLY important? I mean REALLY REALLY important? Then it's OK for your own government to lie to you. Right?

9/11 was more than a disaster. It was the convenient license for the government to lie ALL the time. Better than the sneaky lieing they were doing BEFORE 9/11.

Theft and lies. Only if "necessary". And elections? Well, IF you MUST, then we can get around those too. Presidential elections, Texan districting (using the resources of Homeland Defense to track the Democratic Congressmen - another promise broke), Californian elections, and various other attempts at stae and local recalls of elections they didn't like.

So, many people prefer the "positive outlook" you seem to have deluded yourself with. They will turn away from the truth and keep watching "fari and balanced" Fox GOP television. Its nice. You go ahead and believe what you like. Yup SHOULD feel a bit of security after tossing you ethics out the window in favor of the nationalistic fantasy this administration has never apologized for.

Enjoy the dream. I hope you wake up before it turns bad on you.


(Damn. I was doing SO good staying out of this. I really DO know better than to try and educate the willingly blind. So, whatever. Have a nice day

Problem is.... none of those have anything to do with the PNAC.

They're a conspiracy theorist's wet dream.... they actually wrote this stuff DOWN....

Erm... I hate debates like this in SL/SL forums. Shoulda known the topic would start this...

Anyway I'm going to follow Sweden's example and stay neutral here, but I just want to mention that I don't think this Iraq thing has anything to do with oil (this time around). Not to say there isn't other motives, but I don't buy the "US wants oil" argument. The fact is the US gets the vast, VAST majority of it's oil from other sources and Iraq could easily be cut out of that equation. Just wanted to mention that little "factoid" since it kinda bugs me for some reason.

Thanks Kathy! I heard about the PNAC very soon after they started trying to make the Hussein/Al Queda connection and I've been stewing about it ever since. What pisses me off the most is that the truth is there for all to see in plain sight, and it's STILL THERE! It blows my mind that I've never once heard the mainstream press talk about it.

And Garoad, debates like this are something we need a lot more of. Being afraid of them is a major part of the problem. It doesn't matter if it changes anyone's mind or not. If it makes them examine issues from a broader perspective and makes it just that much harder for the administration to sell them something by wrapping it up in a patriotic bow, then we're all better off for it.

LOL Corwin. I'll be stealing that line for sure

Heh.... feel free. Feel free to modify it appropriately too.... (bearing in mind that I did clean that line up a bit for SL's forums... )

Nono, Chip, I just meant that I (personally) usually don't want to discuss this kind of topic when I'm in SL/reading SL forums. (Although being a political junkie, sometimes I just can't resist.) In other forums yeah let the fireworks fly. SL is my never-never land ranch (hehehe) where I just go to have fun and "be entertained". (for lack of a better description)

You guys can do whatever you want, of course. I was just formally declaring my neutrality in this battlefield.

ahhhh, gotya Garoad I've always admired the Swiss! hehe

lol

A lot to answer here, so lets get started shall we:

(1) Anyone suggesting that Bush should be in prison rather than Saddam has to be joking or deranged.

(2) I'm pretty sure we did more damage and killed more Innocent people in Bosnia than in either Afghanistan or Iraq. We practically destroyed the infrastructure in Bosnia and I don't remember any outrage from the left. Nor do most people understand the nature of the political struggle that was going on there.

(3) So far, in terms of domestic policy the Bush administration is to the left of Clinton. If anyone should be upset about things it is Republicans. But the Left is notorious for working on emotions rather than facts. They were upset before he took office and nothing in the real world is likely to change that.

(4) Policy decisions in Washington don't have instant impact. The recession we were in when Bush took office started several months before Clinton left office. The boom Clinton takes credit for started several months before he(Clinton) took office. The H1B Visa program that is causing many tech jobs to move to India and China was passed during the Clinton administration (as was GATT and NAFTA) and H1B was spearheaded by Ted Kennedy. Bless his murderous heart. The Middle East has been unstable all my life and I'm 50 (or so) years old. It became particularly unstable after Clinton (desperate to create his legacy) convinced the Israelis to offer EVERYTHING to the Palestinians and then Arafat rejected the package. This proved to everyone on both sides that negotiation was going nowhere fast. A slower process (which Clinton had no patience for) would have been much better. I worked at the State Department during all of this and got a first hand look at it. Albright was a laughing stock among State Department employees. Some of the government officials responsible for the visa program got fired, uh, retired (practically impossible for federal employees) but they were really "just following orders" from Congress and Clinton. But then 9/11 may have happened anyway. Nobody on either side can say for sure. What we CAN say for sure is that there was an attempt on the World Trade center during the first year of the Clinton administration and what was done about it was superficial at best. Don't tie outcomes to personalities without facts. Hate anyone you chose to hate or any party for that matter but get your facts straight if you are actually interested in the future rather than just political rhetoric.

(5) The Constitution is NOT a living document, in the sense that it was created to be VERY VERY hard to change. "Activist" courts have changed it by re-interpreting it in non-sensical ways which absolves legislatures of doing their duties and passing actual laws (or amendments). The problem with this "living document" point of view regardless of your political persuasion is that it permits a dictator, or temporary majority to quickly change the meaning of the Constitution to suit their needs. If ANYONE should be against this right now it should be the Left. But out of habit they are still saying "sis boom bah" at every new interpretation of the law in areas that the founding fathers could not have possibly conceived. Pay attention! Conservative jurisprudence does NOT mean conservative in the Republican vs Democrat sense. In meetings of legal experts on CSPAN (please for God's sake tune into such things once in a while) for example they constantly have to edit their own wording so as not to confuse the dumb-ass viewing public. We need "conservative" judges on the courts to stick to what the law says, and legislatures to pass laws that correspond to what the public believes. Anything else renders our system meaningless and ripe for despotism.

(6) Both parties consist of families, mostly rich families, think tanks, and big companies that make it easy for anyone of a mind to come up with conspiracy theories. You know, both parties are still run by families that supported the Nazi party right? There are think tanks that want to put England and all English speaking people in charge of the whole world. There are multinational companies that play off French German and American interests against one another too achieve their own advantage. Listen to Coast to Coast AM every morning and convince yourself that people from outer space are really controlling our destiny. Such conspiracy theories are really a quick way to avoid the real issues that can be understood and acted upon by every thinking American. By signing up to one of those theories you agree to buy books from, cast your votes according too and absolve all independent thought in favor of people who feed you that crap. Get real. Deal with the issues one by one with FACTS, not theories or speculation. You will get much better results for our country, and in the end will feel better about yourself.

(7) If there was a hidden agenda for the war, then eventually it will all come out and you can be vindicated. Just today Saddam was quoted as saying that he promised the Americans all the cheap oil we wanted if we would just leave him alone. So, if it was all about oil, um I guess there is still something "hidden" about that agenda. Again, conspiracy theories are handy substitutes for facts when YOU have a political agenda. If you hate Bush, fine, pick a fact that can be accepted by everyone: "I don't like the way he says 'nuclear'" and just go with that. We won't think you are silly for that. Well, not any sillier than basing your opinion on conspiracies anyway.

( Have a nice day

Ah, but Hussein effectively WAS in prison. He wasn't going anywhere.

What I'm seeing suggested is that Bush should be AT LEAST out of office.... and preferably in prison as well for various crimes. (Like lying to Congress so that he could have his little war which got people killed... there's also that little matter of desertion he was never punished for... and he would have been if his father hadn't been the head of the CIA.)



Incorrect. We did a lot of damage in Bosnia.... and unfortuately it needed to be done. At that point we also had a REAL consensus from our allies, and the assistance of the local resistance. We had a mandate and an actual justification. We also fulfilled that mandate.



Uh.... since when is trickle down a leftist program? Bush has slashed taxes and vital spending.... and increased spending in areas we don't need. Of course that spending is going to friends of his... (Like Haliburton....)

Addidionally he's beenpushing a hardcore right wing christian domestic agenda... this is leftist to you?



Too long to paste in. Correct, it often takes several months for policies to be felt.... and yes... the beginnings of what became the recession were on Clinton's watch. But they don't take THAT long to take effect.... and with Clinton's economy we'd have gone into an economic plateau.

NOT the nosedive we've been in since shortly after Bush took office.

Additionally.... the H1B problem actually PREVENTED jobs from going to other countries. (Workers came here instead. A problem, but not as big of one.) I have my own serious issues with H1B.... but jobs are flowing overseas now because of Bush's tax policies.... and because companies can get labor dirt cheap in india.



It was intentionally set up to be changeable.... it was still meant to change with the times.... difficult or otherwise doesn't change that.



Ah, but when you look.... those theories stick a lot better with regards to the right. (Skull and Bones anybody? PNAC? Prescott Bush's business dealings with the Nazi's? George Sr being head of the CIA?)



That's just it... it isn't so hidden. But with Fox constantly spouting lies and NOT being called on it.... people simply don't pay attention.

Calling people ^willingly blind^, as you do so blunderingly, because they do not share the similar view as you makes me chuckle with amusement. If I was to really tell you what I think of your statements, this would be considered completely and obviously a "flame."

In every event on this earth you will have people with different views, wether they are intelligent or totally absurd(in your own view of course). Everyone who has replied is possibly right and they're possibly wrong. What is the real reason we went to iraq? Who knows, not us. You can come up with good ideas and bad ideas. You can come up with conspiracys that could be true or could not be true. People can always find good in bad and people can always find bad in good. That is the way it works. Calling people willingly blind because you believe something different is absurd. To think that your views are correct and right 100% without a doubt is, what I believe, to make you think you're perfect. And I will just let you know that there hasn't been a perfect being to walk this earth in well over 2,000 years. Throw your comments, suggestions, opinions, insults, intelligent remarks, sarcastic remarks, ANY reply whatsoever, at me. It doesn't even matter.

Have a nice day, and see you in Jessie.

I'm happy for the kurds who will get some overdue payback.
I'm happy for the troops who have a glimmer of hope of returning home now.
I'm happy that Russia, and France will suffer greatly from the arms payments they will never receive.
I'm happy oil prices will be stabilized as soon as out new territory is up and running.

I'm I proud to be an American? Hard to say...

Xavier

I'm not happy for the Kurdish women, ethnic minorities, religious minorites, and anyone else the Kurds dislike.... which is just about everybody else in Iraq. (They're about as nasty a bunch of thugs as you could ask for. As in literal, open Taliban allies and proponents of mandatory Sharia law for everyone.)

I'm not happy for the troops who should never have been asked to risk their lives over a coward's personal issues.

I'm not happy that Russia, France, and Germany, (all of whom are our allies, France for longer than we've been a nation) now consider us to be more of a threat than most of the rest of the world.

I'm not happy that people seem to think that oil prices are more important than peoples' lives.

I'm not happy that a deserter from the Texas Air National Guard, (during time of war no less) has the power to send other people's sons into a foreign land to die... simply to give him SOME kind of campaign issue rather than face his own abysmal failure.

I'm not happy that a huge amount of money has been spent on this debacle to re-elect a chimp when that selfsame chimp's policies are the reason we can't afford to be spending that kind of money on any war that doesn't involve our own survival as a nation in the first place.

Am I proud to be an American? Overall yes. Am I ashamed and disgusted by the current non-elected leadership?

You damned well bet I am. And you can damned well bet that that Chimp is going to hear about it in 2004.

Mac, I think it's funny that you go on and on about how people who are against the war and dislike Bush are skirting the real issues, but you never say what you think the real issues are. Spoken like a true apologist.

No one brought up the recession, so why did you? Because it's an automatic response for you. I'm not so naive as to blame the recession on Bush... but I'm also not so naive as to think that spending hundreds of billions of dollars on an unecessary war is a good idea when we're in one. It's unbelievably irresponsible. Where exactly was this "imminent threat" that couldn't be ignored any longer?

I was just as against Bosnia, and the fact that you automatically assume that hating bush means loving Clinton and turning a blind eye to his mistakes is insulting, and typical. Jumping on that band wagon makes me more likely to dismiss your entire post as empty rhetoric. It's such a typical republican thing to do. If anyone points out what a joke of a president Bush is, you just start pointing a finger at Clinton. No one brought up his administration in this thread. Way to tow the party line there and avoid the issues.

Yes, there are all kinds of thinktanks... but seldom do so many members of a single one inhabit the same cabinet. To think that the PNAC and its doctrine have nothing to do with our reasons for going to war is naive.

And this statement of yours... "Such conspiracy theories are really a quick way to avoid the real issues that can be understood and acted upon by every thinking American. By signing up to one of those theories you agree to buy books from, cast your votes according too and absolve all independent thought in favor of people who feed you that crap. Get real. Deal with the issues one by one with FACTS, not theories or speculation." is just plain insulting to our intelligence. Blanketly calling anyone who disagrees with you a conspiracy theorist who might just as easily believe that we're being controlled by space aliens is a perfect illustration of how indoctrinated you are and how uninterested YOU are in facts.

Thanks for the laughs.

And you're saying that that's okay? You'd happily send your sons and daughters off to die without having it sufficiently and transaprently justified to you? That's scary.

[/B][/B]

I'm guessing that would be Jesus? *cough*

I think this whole thread boils down to this.

On one hand you have the "Eye for an eye" people. You kill a few thousand people, we come into your country and dispose you. You fly a plane into our trade center, we start a "war of terrisom".

On the other hand you have the "Turn the other cheek." and "Do onto others as you would have them do to you." people .

America, is mostly an "Eye for a eye" country. We have the death penality, for example, while many of our world peers don't.

The Middle East is a very "Eye for a eye" group of nations.

Mix the two and it is very bad.

Violence just spawns more violence. The Middle East has been in turmoil for so long because noone will break this cycle. One Jihad just brings another. Now America is in the cycle but we just happen to call our Jihad a "war on terrorism".

I don't think capturing Saddamn is a good thing because I don't think we should have ever gone to war.

I don't even think going after Osama Bin Laden is a good idea.

It was terrible what happen on 9/11. 3000 people dead. But I feel that humanity needs to grow beyond revenge. Instead of looking for revenege we should have extended an olive branch. Instead of sacrificing the lives of our soldiers, sacrifice the artifical satisfaction that revenge will give. Show the world that we will not stoop to their level, that we are better than that.

So Saddamn is captured and we will probably murder him for his crimes. I see no joy in this. It proves only that humanity still has a long way to go.

hahaha good ole Jay Cee

Aaron, just a quick question.

What would your position be, if after having had thousands die to terrorisom, we had just offered the peace branch .. and then they did it again, and a third time, a fourth? Still giving out that olive branch?

Would you, if you were the president, make the choice to -possibly- sacrifice thousands of your own people to ongoing terrorism, all the while waving that olive branch? Or would you strike to put an end to it?

Just because people want and hope for a peaceful solution ...

Does not mean you'll -get- one.

Good intensions are all great, so is saying things like "Give peace a chance" and all the hoohaa, but saying it, wanting it, AND ACTIVELY WORKING TOWARD IT doesn't mean the other guy wants it. The other guy might just say all the right things too, and use all the popular PCspeak, and turn right around and shoot you while your hand is out.

If you were in Washington, and "In Charge" and you knew someone named Bin Laden were out there somewhere, plotting to kill americans, not negotiate, not publish his views, but Kill Your People, what would your choice be?

We americans look to washington to lead us, and to protect us. That's their job, not only to make really annoying laws and raise taxes, they're there to protect us, make us safe in our homes in a world full of people who want to take those homes away. To kill us, kill our friends and family.

Willing to take that chance that your people will die while you wave the peace flag?

Sure, it would be great if there were world peace and all men lived in harmony with their fellow man.

I think I saw an episode of Twilight Zone where they had that. Unforetunately, we don't live in that world. Would have's and should have's are great, but lets not forget that they aren't the same as what IS.

Pointing out flaws is easy, fixing them is a whole other story.

Sadly, the huge chasm between left and right views demonstrated here echoes the state of our nation. Two large, wealthy parties with diametrically opposed views, like 2 runaway trains going in opposite directions... One side uses fear to make their points and reinforce their views, which often leads to distortion of the truth. The other side wants to keep us in the dark because they think we can't handle the truth (or for other reasons less noble). Both sides want to point their fingers into the past, and say *look what your party did!*. We can't focus on the present or the future if we all point fingers at *past mistakes*. Which gives me serious doubt about whether or not America will be around in another 100 years.

Champie,

I am glad you posted. I believe that your thoughts and opinions reflect quite a few, including myself, even tho you seemed in the well flamed minority.

I think its very good Saddam was finally found, but if I have to look at that shot of the inside of that evil monster's mouth again, I am going to puke.




fen-