SL attraction to non-believers

HAHAHA... I wondered when Jedi was going to come up!

I wonder if any Knights protested while waving their lightsabers, decrying discrimination against an intergalactic peacekeeping force.

Here are the stats for Canada.

Trends in membership of various religions (listed in alphabetic order):
Religion 1981 census data 1991 census data 2001 census data
Atheists, Agnostics , Humanists,
no religion, etc. 7.4 12.3% 16.2%
Buddhism 0.2% 0.6% 1.0%
Main Christian groups 90.0% 83.3% 72%
Catholic 47.3% 45.2% 43.2%
Protestant 41.2% 34.9% 29.2%
Eastern Orthodox 1.5% 1.4% 1.6%
Hinduism 0.3% 0.6% 1.0%
Islam 0.4% 0.9% 2.0%
Judaism 1.2% 1.2% 1.1%
Sikhism 0.3% 0.5% 0.9%

I'm always a little surprised when I see statistics like this as I hardy ever seem to meet any actively religious people in my day to day life. Perhaps this is because of the urban environment I choose to live in but it seems like there's a huge religious segment of the population that I just don't seem to come into contact with.

I think the point is that there is a difference between stating a religion, and practising it actively. For example my parents describe themselves as Church of England - however they don't go to church except for weddings and funerals. Also for some living in areas with a large minority community they call themselves Christians to differentiate themselves from the "other" - it has ethnic rather than religious meaning.

Some people think that if you celebrate Christmas and Easter that you are Christian. I have a friend that grew up "Jewish" and thought being Jewish meant you were atheist because while her family didn't believe in God they identified themselves as Jewish. You can consider yourself a religion without actually practicing it.

The problem with religious polls is the wording. "Do you believe in a power beyond yourself and that this unknowable force brought the universe into being?" Of course you are going to get a small number of no answers. Theists will point to this as confirmation that 95% of what ever population you poll believes in god, their god since they paid for the poll.

Then again, many of these polls were given in schools, you think a junior high student is going to admit he/ she is an athiest or agnostic when everyone else around them seems to believe in it and the school and even the government seems to take a dim view of non believers... don't believe me, look at the coins in your pocket, each one says, "In god we trust" or read the pledge of aliegence. Consider this, under the rule of the Taliban in Afganistan, exactly how many people were going to admit they were infidels in a government poll? Not very many, just as a matter of survival. Looking at the murders of aborton doctors or anyone else "anti-god" , how many Americans are wary of admiting to any one they are "infidels"?

You will never, ever get any meaningful answer to the "is there a god" question that has any real meaning, you might as well ask the number of dancing angels there are on the head of a pin from a marmoset.

I see this post as an attempt to ask how many people are Christians and I refuse to take part in such foolishness therefore I refuse to respond by god.

http://www.adherents.com/ has worldwide stats for 4,200 religions.

Enjoy!

Whoa!

Which is one religion for every 1,428,571 people if anyone was wondering, which I'm sure you weren't. Oh well.

How so? You have to log in to view the forums, something I don't expect the average window shopper to do.

It is mostly paranoia on my part, but I have seen some of the more "fervent" religious folks sign up for sites/forums expressly for the purpose of cleaning up the heathens. This has caused nothing but trouble.

For example. whenever evolution/creationism is discussed on several forums I read, the debates start out somewhat reasonable, then degrade when the "paid protestors" show up and drown out all opposing views.

While the SL forums are private, the people here can post about it in other places, focusing attention on us. It is great when boingboing or waxy picks up on snapzilla or Wilde Cunningham, it is much different when a blanket statement is made concerning the "fact" that SL is mostly godless. I can see no good coming from that.

My opinion is that these weighty matters are best discussed elsewhere, but, hey, if it's there, I will participate.

I don't wish Billy any ill will and, as someone who was raised Christian, I understand and appreciate his zeal around the time of his Saviour's return. I will ask that he pray for me and I will place the Three Orbs in The Cup for him.

Organized forum mobbing, how facinating. Could you post links to some of these threads? I'd like to see them.

Orbs in cup?

Alan and daz,

I do apologize if my response to you was harsh. I do want you to respond. I just ask that you please recognize that I was not talking about religion in general or SL as a whole, just the people who post regularly on these forums. For the record, I have no idea about the makeup of all of SL as I am sure nobody does.

I am sorry that you do not like the question but I for one do find it interesting that it appears that the majority of forum posters are atheist or agnostic when that is not reflective of the population of the US at least as a whole. I wanted some insight as to what my forum family thinks about this issue and have no ulterior motives.

I tend to get really defensive when I feel I am attacked. I know that it is a fault of mine and I am sorry that I reacted the way I did. It would have been much more affective to say what I just did. Please accept my apology.

Chip, I do agree with your assessment as well as that of some of the others like Rose, Aku, Lo etc…. TY for your replies.

I noticed that my name wasn't in that poll. And I most certainly do believe in God. On the other hand, I have a remarkable aversion to people ASKING me whether I believe in God. They usually have more than mere curiosity in mind. They almost always have a point to prove.

Now, I might share their point of view, and might want to make that very point, but most of these polls are by people more interested in making the point into THEIR OWN point. Usually one that makes someone else less of a human being than they feel they are.

I have no interest at all in that kind of "christianity". And neither did Christ.

neither do I for the record Kathy.

This is a really good point. I know a lot of atheists, but very few of them are open about it except with people they already know to be other non-believers. Having it be known that you're an atheist can easily result in becoming estranged from friends and family, passed over for promotions at work, being harassed or evangelized to, or a whole host of other unfortunate consequences. This is why so many atheists get bent out of shape about the pledge, ten commandments postings in public schools and other related issues. Religious people see it them as harmless and ceremonial, but atheists see it quite differently... as territorial markers that say "you're not welcome here."

Billy, one thing I find interesting about this thread is that after soliciting discussion about this topic you haven't really replied to any of the serious attempts at answers. Since I thought you were talking about SL as a whole and not just the forums I'll give you another possible explanation... forums attract opinionated people and because these forums are anonymouns you're a lot more likely to get honest answers out of people that you wouldn't get talking to coworkers or people in your community. I think it's quite possible that there are a lot more non-believers in the general real world population than you think. They're just silent because they don't want the hassles that come from being exposed.

I was just kinda taking it in Chip. Didn't see anything particular addressed to me so I didn't respond.

If you are asking for my opinion I am happy to share it. It could very well be totally wrong and I will acknowledge that fact before saying it. It is just my theory is all.

There are 2 ways that brains work. One is the analytical thinker, logical, analytical etc... I believe that this is referred to as "right brained" people. These people are not ruled by emotion but by logic.

The other is the "left brain" type. These people tend to rely much more on feelings and emotion. They also tend to be artists, writers and other creative types. I believe that SL attracts a disproportionate amount of left brained people because the community relies on creativity and these kinds of people are much more equipped for SL and possibly more imaginative.

These "left brained" people tend to be liberals politically and compared to conservatives there are more atheists and agnostics than their conservative counterparts.

I have absolutely no proof that this is true of SL itself, it is just my opinion. Upon coming to SL and taking part in the forums I was shocked at how many atheists and agnostics. The proportion was waaaay more than I had expected and was probably what surprised me the most.

Due to my total lack of proof about SL itself, I posed the question about the forums, which I do have personal experience with. I was and still am curious as to why these forums attract so many outspoken atheists and agnostics and thought it would be interesting to discuss.

There is no hidden point or agenda behind this btw. I have no problem with it at all. The topic just interests me. TY all for contributing so far. Chip, I will try to add more to the conversation since after all it is my thread. TY for your comments. As always they are thought provoking and well thought out.

I don't know what "God" means to most people. I don't know what "god" means to most people, either. God, Jehovah, Allah, Krishna, the Way, the One? To say nothing of Lucifer, Vishnu, Anacreas, or Chaos.

And I don't know what "Christianity" is. I do know Baptists and Pentecostals who swear that Mormons aren't Christians. And I know Mormons who swear that Catholics aren't Christians. And Catholics who swear that Protestants aren't Christians. And I know a lot of Christians who don't even know what Coptic Christianity or Eastern Orthodoxy is, let alone have an opinion on whether they're Christians or not.

And I know Shi'ites and Sunnis who swear that Sufis aren't Muslim. (However, I've never met a Sufi who thinks that Shi'ites or Sunnis aren't Muslims. Good for them.)

And so on. It's not just a question of whether people are going to admit they have beliefs outside of the "acceptable" mainstream, it's literally a problem of definition. In a global community, you can't be sure of anything unless you allow people to define what they're trying to communicate to you.

For example, the very fact that the word "God" is capitalized and singular in this thread indicates something about the assumptions of those who have asked and tried to answer questions about the nature of belief.

The left-right brain theory is pseudoscientific. It is absurd to divide the world into two groups and assign political and religious views to each.

In reality, atheism correlates strongly with education and lack of religious parenting.

~Ulrika~

I think that's definitely a factor. Another, as far as the forum goes, is that a lot of the regular posters have been in SL for quite a while, so are early adopter pioneer types who tend to be more resistant to accepting the status quo. I remeber being an AOL member back when there were only around 25k members. The population was similar to SL's with a higher than normal percentage of creative and technical people. As the population moved from early adopters to a more mainstream crowd it became what it is now. I suspect as SL continues to grow it will become more representative of the general population and the percentages will become similar to those in the real world.

Like you I'm just speculating I've always found SL's forums to be a nice haven particularly because there's a larger percentage of like minded people here than I'm used to finding all in one place.

I am sure you are right oh Ulrika the high and mighty. What was I thinking? After all, I am an dumb, uneducated Christian who blindly followed the brain washing of my religious parents, right? At least you don't hide your bigotry and hatred, I will give you that.

Who really knows Chip... lol. That is why I find it so interesting to hear what you and the others think.

At least you are willing to admit that you have the same experience on this forum as me with regards to it's makeup. I really didn't think that it was just me who noticed... lol.

No no. It must be you that's right. The world is divided into two types of people, left brain and right brain and the left brains are atheist liberals.

~Ulrika~

I must say, I find this thread (and the polls linked) vaguely amusing in an academic sense. And also, sadly, indicative of the cultural biases many have grown up with.

As a Buddhist I would have to answer "no" to the question "Do you believe in God/a God/a higher power/etc.?" -- the Buddha is an Enlightened spirit who helps others find the path to truth, but the Buddha is no "god." But in answering "no" the fact that I believe that life is suffering, that suffering is caused by desire, that suffering may be ended, and that the Eightfold Path leads to the end of suffering... that is entirely lost. That is more the fault of the polls than the current thread however.

The difficulties in the original question(s) seem to be very common and very honest -- this is in no way meant to be a flame. Or perhaps I am mistaken in reading Billy Grace's intention too broadly; if he only meant the Christian God, then, well, the question changes! But I the spirit of the original post as "Why are there so many non-religious people in SL?"

As such, I think it boils down to one word: freedom. I've only just tasted SL but I've met many others who've said that's what attracts them here. Some, I think, may even be fleeing from constraints imposed upon them by society, family, work, etc. And it seems that there are fewer who follow organised religions who feel somehow "oppressed" than those who do not. So it's a little like asking why there are so many gathered at an oasis -- there is something here that lacks in some way elsewhere.

I hope this response makes some sense. I know it is full of generalisations which I trust will be understood as a kind of shorthand. And if there's only one thing anyone takes away from this post, I hope it is an understanding that one must always "question the question" and study it deeply -- it very often proves to be the wrong one.

Do you know the definition of tend Ulrika? Let me help you out there.

tend
intr.v. tend·ed, tend·ing, tends
1. To have a tendency: paint that tends toward bubbling and peeling over time.
2. To be disposed or inclined: tends toward exaggeration.
3. To move or extend in a certain direction: Our ship tended northward.

Please read and respond to what I say, not what you want me to say. I am truly sorry that you feel such a need to be combative. If you are going to partake in these conversations please have something of value to add.

This really blows me away Chip. I've never had the experience of being persecuted or discriminated against for not believing in God. This almost certainly has something to do with where I live (in the gay villiage of an urban center on the westcoast - or leftcoast as some call it - of Canada) but I have traveled widely and have never experienced it in either Europe or Asia. Sure, sometimes there're people standing around with little pamphlets saying how nice God is or handing out copies of the Watchtower but very rarely anything 'in your face'. The coins in my pocket say nothing about God, they do have a picture of Queen Elizabeth on them, but no one pays much attention to that.

I'm constantly hearing about various Christian lobby groups in the US that are pushing for legislation to be brought into line with their viewpoints on everything from stem cell research to television programming, not to mention the highly visible gay marriage and abortion issues. Even though the majority of Europeans are Christians of some sort they seem to deal with these same issues in a much more secular manner. George Bush mentions God alot yet I cannot recall an incident of a European political leader talking about their personal religious beliefs in the context of thier job or policies, much less using those belief as an actual or implied justification for them even though the majority of their constituents may share their religion.

I guess my question is how strong and pervasive is the social pressure in America to conform to Christian beliefs?