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From each according to his ability, to each according to his need

Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
04-25-2005 17:27
In recent days, there has been much talk about folks who spend their time pushing the envelope of Second Life. Creating new products, contributing to libraries of information available to all residents, and generally pursuing their own interests. It has been said that these individuals are bad for Second Life. That their energies spent on creating content, on storing information and techniques to assist others interested in creation, and their dialog with Linden Lab, is all somehow destructive.

It has been said that these people hold Second Life back. That individuals less talented than they are being deprived access to great things, because these movers and shakers don't bend themselves to the needs and wants of the insultingly-named "unwashed masses."

I urge caution in these sorts of discussions. Historically, tragedy follows this line of thinking. Submitted for your perusal is an excerpt from a work of fiction I particularly enjoy. For the erudite among us, it will need no introduction. I quote it now without further comment. Forgive my uncharacteristically lengthy post.

From: someone
"there was something that happened at the plant where I worked for twenty years The Twentieth Century Motor Company.

It was when the old man died and his heirs took over. ... They let us vote on it too, and everybody -- almost everybody -- voted for it ....
The plan was that everybody in the factory would work according to his ability, but would be paid according to his need. ... they made it sound like that anyone who'd oppose the plan was a child-killer at heart and less than a human being.

... Do you know how it worked, that plan, and what it did to people? Try pouring water into a tank where there is a pipe at the bottom draining it out faster than you pour it in and each bucket you bring breaks the pipe an inch wider, and the harder you work the more is demanded of you, and you stand slinging buckets forty hours a week, then forty-eight, then fifty-six -- for your neighbor's supper -- for his wife's operation -- for his child's measles -- for his mother's wheelchair -- for his uncle's shirt -- for his nephew's schooling -- for the baby next door -- for the baby to be born -- for anyone anywhere around you -- it's theirs to receive, from diapers to dentures -- and yours to work, ... with nothing to show for it but your sweat, with nothing in sight for you but their pleasure, for the whole of your life, without rest, without hope, without end ...

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need ... It took just one meeting to discover that we had become beggars --rotten, whining, sniveling beggars, all of us, because no man could claim his pay as his rightful earning, he had no rights and no earnings, his work didn't belong to him, it belonged to "the family," and they owed him nothing in return, and the only claim he had on them was his "need" -- so he had to beg in public for relief from his needs, like any lousy moocher, listing all his troubles and miseries, down to his patched drawers and his wife's head colds, hoping that "the family" would throw him the alms. He had to claim miseries, because its miseries, not work, that had become the coin of the realm -- so it turned into a contest among six thousand panhandlers, each claiming that his need was worse than his brothers... what sort of men kept quiet, feeling shame, and what sort got away with the jackpot?

... What was it that they'd always told us about the vicious competition of the profit system, where men had to compete for who'd do a better job than his fellows? Vicious wasn't it? Well, they should have seen what it was like when we all had to compete with one another for who'd do the worst job possible. There is no surer way to destroy a man than to force him into a spot where he has to aim at not doing his best, where he has to struggle to do a bad job day after day.

... Amusement was the first thing they dropped. Aren't you always supposed to be ashamed to object when anybody asks you to give up anything, if it's something that gave you pleasure? ... There was a man who'd worked hard, all his life, because he'd always wanted to send his son through college. Well, the boy graduated from high school in the second year of the plan -- but "the family" wouldn't give the father any "allowance" for the college. They said his son couldn't go to college, until we had enough to send everybody's son to college -- and we first had to send everybody's children through high school, and we didn't even have enough for that. The father died the following year, in a knife fight with somebody in a saloon, a fight over nothing in particular -- such fights were beginning to happen among us all the time.

Then there was an old guy, a widower with no family, who had one hobby: phonograph records -- "personal luxury", they called it. But at that same meeting, Millie Bush, somebody's daughter, a mean ugly little eight-year-old, was voted a pair of gold braces for her buck teeth -- this was "medical need," because the staff psychologist had said that the poor girl would get an inferiority complex if her teeth weren't straightened out.
The old guy who loved music, turned to drink instead.

... But the shiftless and the irresponsible had a field day of it. They bred babies, they got girls into trouble, they dragged in every worthless relative they had from all over the country, every unmarried pregnant sister, for an extra disability allowance, they got more sickness than any doctor could disprove, they ruined their clothing, their furniture, their homes -- what the hell, "the family" was paying for it!

They found more ways of getting in "need" than the rest of us could ever imagine -- they developed a special skill for it, which was the only ability they showed.... Yet this was the moral law that the professors and leaders and thinkers had wanted to establish all over the earth.

If this is what it did to a single town, where we all knew on another, do you care to think what it would do on a world scale? ...To work -- with no chance of an extra ration, till the Cambodians have been fed and the Patagonians have been sent to college. To work -- on a blank check held by every creature born, by men whom you'll never see, whose needs you will never know, whose ability or laziness or sloppiness or fraud you have no way to learn and no right to question -- just to work and work and work -- and leave it up to the Ivys and the Geralds of the world to decide whose stomach will consume the effort, the dreams and days of your life.

And this is the moral law to accept? This -- a moral ideal? ... Our agony took four years, from our first meeting to our last, and it ended the only way it could end: in bankruptcy.

Ivy Starnes made a short, nasty, snippy little speech in which she said that the plan failed because the rest of the country had not accepted it, that a single community could not succeed in the midst of a selfish, greedy world ..."
blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
04-25-2005 17:32
Straw man.

If you wish to address a discussion, address it accurately:

From: someone

With elitist attitudes and beliefs about the necessity of having a 'can do' attitude, the important people, the masses who do not hold the ins and outs of SL as their #1 priority, are getting left behind.


Perhaps you disagree with my definition of "Techi Wiki". However, those are dangerous grounds because this is Prok's label, not yours. In most ways it's a tautology and can not be argued with.

If you want to try a rebuttal, I suggested trying what Andrew did, which was a very good attempt at skewering it - the Techi Wiki do not exist.

However, I feel I have a volume of evidence which proves otherwise.
_____________________
Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :

"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
04-25-2005 17:34
From: blaze Spinnaker
Straw man.


I bet you didn't even read it all yet. ;)
blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
04-25-2005 17:36
From: someone

Creating new products, contributing to libraries of information available to all residents, and generally pursuing their own interests. It has been said that these individuals are bad for Second Life.


No, you're right, I didn't. I hit the straw man in the first couple of sentences and felt that because a) it was at the top, and b) it was fallacious then therefore c) I don't need to read anymore.
_____________________
Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :

"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
04-25-2005 17:41
From: blaze Spinnaker
No, you're right, I didn't. I hit the straw man in the first couple of sentences and felt that because a) it was at the top, and b) it was fallacious then therefore c) I don't need to read anymore.


A very convenient means of excusing yourself from the discussion.
Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
04-25-2005 17:50
(edited)

This is probably the single most used deflection tactic employed on these forums.

Analysis is ok to a point, it's just that most of the time the proclivity for assumptive behavior is much higher when a person becomes highly confident of their analytical skills. "I am going to define the rules of debate on these forums." Please stop trying to impose your view of what qualifies as proper debate on other people.
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Cereal Milk
Magically Delicious
Join date: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 203
04-25-2005 17:55
Come on now. Forget all this. Phil's a rich dotcom CEO and - many of us suspect - a contributor to the Libertarian party. Do you seriously think he'd let SL turn "red"?
Buster Peel
Spat the dummy.
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 1,242
04-25-2005 17:57
From: blaze Spinnaker
If you want to try a rebuttal, I suggested trying what Andrew did, which was a very good attempt at skewering it - the Techi Wiki do not exist.

However, I feel I have a volume of evidence which proves otherwise.

(Same reply as other thread) he didn't say they do not exsist, he said it doesn't matter.

I said earlier, my own assessment is that "techi wiki" is a silly notion.
Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
04-25-2005 18:02
From: Cereal Milk
Come on now. Forget all this. Phil's a rich dotcom CEO and - many of us suspect - a contributor to the Libertarian party. Do you seriously think he'd let SL turn "red"?


Heh, comforting as all that is, my point is to dissuade people from making decisions and forming opinions that are contrary to the basic rights of personal freedom and self-determination of every man and woman on created. It's important to remind people that other people can do anything they want with their own lives, be that making money or sharing their research and accomplishments with like-minded individuals, or simply staying within their own circle of friends to complete projects and share resources.
Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
04-25-2005 18:04
From: Buster Peel


I said earlier, my own assessment is that "techi wiki" is a silly notion.


It's just a label - a convenient pidgeonhole along with 'FIC' and 'Content Baron' to neatly slot all the residents of Second Life into catagories that aren't Prok..
That's the way I look at it.

It's all very funny :) Sort of like on the playground of primary school where the cry of 'well you're a doodyhead!' echoed out as the recess bell rang.

A good 90% of the cries made have little or no basis in fact - it's very much like that Calvin and Hobbes cartoon where Calvin is doing a report and Hobbes makes the observation 'All you have is one fact - which you made up'..

And so everytime I read one of those long long posts the voice of a sometimes toy tiger echos in the back of my head:

"Bats are not bugs"

Siggy.
_____________________
The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals.

From: Jesse Linden
I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
Cereal Milk
Magically Delicious
Join date: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 203
04-25-2005 18:05
No. I mean. Seriously. Forget all this.
StoneSelf Karuna
His Grace
Join date: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,955
04-25-2005 18:06
From: Nolan Nash
(edited)

This is probably the single most used deflection tactic employed on these forums.

Analysis is ok to a point, it's just that most of the time the proclivity for assumptive behavior is much higher when a person becomes highly confident of their analytical skills. "I am going to define the rules of debate on these forums." Please stop trying to impose your view of what qualifies as proper debate on other people.

yeah but strawmen argument are logical fallacies.

1. someone makes claim
2. strawman argumenter builds an argument that is related to the claim in 1, but the argument has no bearing on the validity of the claim it self. it is only related.
3. strawman argumenter then disproves the argument in 2.
4. strawman having disproven an argument, declares the claim in 1 is false.

it's just not logical.

pointing out the illogic of the strawman argument is no the same as saying people can't use the strawman argument. though people who use the strawman argument look stupid.
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Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
04-25-2005 18:06
From: Enabran Templar
Heh, comforting as all that is, my point is to dissuade people from making decisions and forming opinions that are contrary to the basic rights of personal freedom and self-determination of every man and woman on created. It's important to remind people that other people can do anything they want with their own lives, be that making money or sharing their research and accomplishments with like-minded individuals, or simply staying within their own circle of friends to complete projects and share resources.


Here here! A lil less worrying about what everyone ELSE is doing and a lil more focus on doing your own thing!

Thats the kind of thinking I like to see!

Siggy.
_____________________
The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals.

From: Jesse Linden
I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
04-25-2005 18:07
From: blaze Spinnaker
No, you're right, I didn't. I hit the straw man in the first couple of sentences and felt that because a) it was at the top, and b) it was fallacious then therefore c) I don't need to read anymore.


And this, Blaze, is why I like to beat you with a stick.
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Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
04-25-2005 18:10
From: someone
In recent days, there has been much talk about folks who spend their time pushing the envelope of Second Life. Creating new products, contributing to libraries of information available to all residents, and generally pursuing their own interests. It has been said that these individuals are bad for Second Life. That their energies spent on creating content, on storing information and techniques to assist others interested in creation, and their dialog with Linden Lab, is all somehow destructive.

It has been said that these people hold Second Life back. That individuals less talented than they are being deprived access to great things, because these movers and shakers don't bend themselves to the needs and wants of the insultingly-named "unwashed masses."


Who says these things, Enabran?

I don't say them.

People how make products and fill libraries are great. I love their stuff. I shop. I buy their stuff.

They aren't bad for Second Life.

But the attitude of *some of them* that others are lesser beings than they; that their activity is the sole activity to be recognized and privileged in SL; that their products can't even be resold second hand; and a thousand other things I've been writing about are the problems.

Not the people. Not their creativity. Not content. But attitudes of some.

The attitudes might be characterized by the brash, arrogant attitudes of very young men trying out their first ideologies in life, before they've had jobs, before they've had kids, before they've taken responsibilites in communities, before they'd suffered life events like the deaths of their parents, etc. Just to provide one explanation for that attitude of overweening arrogance and hubris.
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
04-25-2005 18:12
From: Prokofy Neva
Not the people. Not their creativity. Not content. But attitudes of some.


Now you're getting it! You're just pointing at the wrong "some." Get a mirror.
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MrsJakal Suavage
Purple Butterfly
Join date: 18 Jul 2004
Posts: 1,434
04-25-2005 18:12
From: Nolan Nash
(edited)

.


What in the world is supposed to be coming out of the mouth? :confused:
blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
04-25-2005 18:13
Straw men are the most often used short cut in these forums to arguing with someone else.

But, I will debate the point.. but I refuse to follow up on fallacies.

However, I'll bite what Buster said because it's an interesting point.

Why do the techi wiki matter? Throwing aside the argument that SL doesn't need to grow (something I actually should have thought about more before I posted) and assuming it does, I'd say the techi wiki matter simply because they have profound talents and skillsets and (shudder all you want) make up the major parts of the Feted Inner Core (prok should charge everytime people use his terminology!).

This inner core is the core culture of SL. Like any startup, this core culture becomes a part of its genetics .. a part of its heritage, it's raison d'etre.

If or when it is time to grow, this culture will necessarily be predominant, and only less so if we start to reduce it's impact now rather than later.

So, I disagree that the techi wiki is not relevant.
_____________________
Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :

"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
Jeska Linden
Administrator
Join date: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 2,388
04-25-2005 18:14
Just wanted to remind everyone to stay on-topic - and to please refrain from personally attacking those you don't agree with. Thanks. :)
Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
04-25-2005 18:20
From: Prokofy Neva
But the attitude of *some of them* that others are lesser beings than they; that their activity is the sole activity to be recognized and privileged in SL; that their products can't even be resold second hand; and a thousand other things I've been writing about are the problems.


Bull. The attitude you're talking about is best summed up as "I don't have to give you my stuff for free. Do you want to be able to consume? First learn to produce."

I don't think that's asking much at all.

From: Prokofy Neva
The attitudes might be characterized by the brash, arrogant attitudes of very young men trying out their first ideologies in life, before they've had jobs, before they've had kids, before they've taken responsibilites in communities, before they'd suffered life events like the deaths of their parents, etc. Just to provide one explanation for that attitude of overweening arrogance and hubris.


My question for you is where does all of your complaining about social networking in Second Life fit in? By your condescension, one might assume you have held a job and and taken responsibilities in communities. Have you not noticed that knowing people often helps you get jobs and other opportunities? Are yours just sour grapes because your poor attitude leaves you unable to join these groups?

I'm calling for people to do anything they want, Prokofy, as long as it harms no one else. I'm calling for people to have the ability to sell things, to give them away for free, to hire their friends instead of people they don't know.

And as far as I can tell, you're in the opposite corner.
Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
04-25-2005 18:25
From: StoneSelf Karuna
yeah but strawmen argument are logical fallacies.

1. someone makes claim
2. strawman argumenter builds an argument that is related to the claim in 1, but the argument has no bearing on the validity of the claim it self. it is only related.
3. strawman argumenter then disproves the argument in 2.
4. strawman having disproven an argument, declares the claim in 1 is false.

it's just not logical.

pointing out the illogic of the strawman argument is no the same as saying people can't use the strawman argument. though people who use the strawman argument look stupid.

I am familiar with the definition.

I am disagreeing with blaze's application of it here. I am also saying that its is overused and sometimes misused, i.e, an avoidance tactic, or an outright closed minded dismissal. When I hear the same folks invoking logical fallacies often, I start to wonder.

I suppose that makes me stupid by association. Que sera, sera.
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Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
04-25-2005 18:28
Oh I forgot that one - the other group - the 'F*ck you hedonists' -- they're the ones that just do whatever they like..

Like I said , there's one for everybody!

Thanks for the reminder :)

Siggy.
_____________________
The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals.

From: Jesse Linden
I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
04-25-2005 20:58
Enanbran,

Excellent thread - I can't bear to rehash this subject anymore, but your post was dead on.
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blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
04-25-2005 21:09
Well, I for one will be using this theme quite a bit more, but perhaps we should use them in the context of other conversations rather than this one directly.

The FIC, while an evocative and interesting idea, lacked the accuracy of the Techi Wiki, which is more of a subliminal mindset that I think is more precise in its vagueness.

I have to say, I am really glad that Prok imagined up these phrases. They really have colored the mindscape of SL into a much more vivid relief.
_____________________
Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :

"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
Isablan Neva
Mystic
Join date: 27 Nov 2004
Posts: 2,907
04-25-2005 21:28
Enabran...anyone who qoutes Ayn Rand is ok in my book :D
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