I think I might be sick...

I just had a discussion with the most disgusting person I've ever met in SL. He seems to be a neo-nazi. He hates Jews, and believes that the holocaust never happened. He went on and on about some "David Cole" person, and continually said some pretty horrific things.

I'm not going to post his name, nor will I post the log -- for now, at least. If you want to contact me privately about who it is, so you can ignore him, just contact me.

I refuse to spend time in the same world as this horrible person.

Help > Report Abuse. That's what it's there for.

Griefers have a very short shelf life in SL. Don't let this fool spoil your day.

I'm not sure it would be considered abuse, is it? He did state he was having a discussion with the person, not that the person was shouting hate speach or chasing him down and harassing him. If he didn't like the persons views he should have ended the discussion and left.
Now of course if things happened differently than this it may be another story, but that's how i read it.

And saying you refuse to spend time in the same world as that horrible person seems a little extreme. Would you kill yourself in real life if you met someone who had different views than your own (no matter how wrong and horrid you think they are)?

"I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

Unfortunately I don't think it is abuse. I've had a few racist things thrown at me in SL -- in the Welcome area of all places -- and as much as I would have loved to have hit that 'abuse' pulldown, I didn't.

People have the right to hate. Even if it is for inane reasons. :\

I know you're Jewish, James - Did this person *direct them at you* or just state his opinions in discussion?

If he was threatening you, that's a completely different issue.

Oh, assuming this individual is an American citizen, he has the right to hold and express whatever despicable ideas he pleases, unless, as I understand it, it is intended to incite violence. The First Amendment, however, certainly doesn't apply in Second Life. You do not have the legal right to say whatever you want, and hate speech is certainly one of the things you can get banned for.

The context doesn't matter either. If I ask, "what are your thoughts on $ethnic_group?" and the response is "they should all be rounded up and shot", claiming that it was an honest response to a question doesn't mean that you transfer responsibility for your words to the person you were talking to.

It is abuse, in that it was hateful and harassing. Anyone expressing bigotry has no place in a community like SL.

Are you sure, Catherine? As much as I would have loved to AR the guy who said something on the order of "shipping all you slant-eyes back to the fishing docks you came from", - as much as I don't agree, especially since the only words I know in Japanese are 'domo arrigato' (re: Mr. Roboto) is it _that_ far of a cry from me saying "I think anyone who supports President Bush is an idiot" ?

Devil's advocate at most, Catherine. Believe me.

See the Community Standards entries Rules of Conduct and Tolerance.


Rules of Conduct
Within Second Life, we want to support Residents in shaping their specific experiences and making their own choices. Our rules are simple: treat each other with respect and without harassment, adhere to local standards as indicated by simulator ratings, and refrain from any hate activity which slurs a real-world individual or real-world community.

Tolerance
We value an open environment in which Residents feel free to express themselves. However, expressions of hatred toward real-world individuals or communities will not be tolerated.

Touche`. I have been 0wn3d. ... Interesting, that. I didn't really expect that - now, I guess that's CS; can an abuse report be filed for a CS violation, or only for TOS violations?

In other words, other things like loud music playing on a script could violate CS. But I don't think an abuse report would work, there.

Just curiousity James. Did this fountain of non-intellect know that you are Jewish when he was talking to you?

Ahh, but section 5.1 of the Terms of Service reads:

5.1 Participant Conduct. In addition to abiding at all times by the Community Standards, you agree that you shall not:

...

(iv) upload, post, e-mail or otherwise transmit Content as determined by Linden at its sole discretion that is harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, causes tort, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, hateful, racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable;

So the CS is directly referenced by the ToS. I have to say though, I don't understand what you mean by this point:



If you were attempting to harass someone using a script that played loud music, yeah, I would think you could fairly expect an abuse report. If you were just bad at writing scripts, or it didn't occur to you that your house saying "waaaaaassssaaaap" on endless loop might be a little irritating to your neighbours, you shouldn't recieve an abuse report, nor would the Lindens take any action against you beyond requesting that you turn it down.

Simply being annoying or inconsiderate isn't a CS violation. You're allowed to be a jerk, just not to go out of your way to be one.

[/i]

Something told me i should have read that before posting my message.
I stand corrected.

I'll also add that i agree with the rule, there is enough stupid stuff that goes on here - no one should have to deal with that too.

Here's what happened. Another Jewish resident in SL told me that there is a neo-nazi lurking in SL, telling his theories to people. I got his name from her, and went ahead and IMed him. I was simply informing him that some rumors about him were being spread. I said that it was most likely a misunderstanding, because his name is a bit grim. He corrected me, saying that I was wrong -- he is, in fact, a neo-nazi. Well, actually, he told me that's a name he doesn't like. However, he hates Jews. Even when I told him that I myself am Jewish. He even ended the conversation with a German phrase which I'm pretty sure Hitler used a few times.

The whole thing happened in an IM -- does that count for abuse? It's too late to send abuse, I already closed to client...but, should I have? I mean, I'm the one who started it...

That would have been up to you. He did violate the community standards, if it upset you enough to file a report would be completely up to you.

IMs are held to the same standards as open chat.
For example, you are in violation of the ROC if you cuss or use sexual language in an IM if you are in a PG sim.
Of course, in general you aren't going to get a report filed agianst you for that.

I'm sorry you had to experience that, James.

The trouble is, as our little community becomes not-so-little, this is the sort of trash that we can expect to encounter. The only good thing is that I am sure people with that kind of mind-set (if the use of the word 'mind' is not too flattering) will probably not enjoy sl very much, and will not be likely to stay here too long.

Disallowing the expression of hatred has interesting implications for art in SL, and for SL's ability to be more than a game. It rules out expressions of hatred toward Jews by American neo-Nazis, and it also rules out expressions of hatred toward Americans by occupied Palestinians. Where does the hostility some SL residents have expressed towards Christianity fall in this? The policy might make SL safer but also less real, insulating it from the outside world but limiting its capacity to reflect it or effect it. Which may be what the Lindens want, who knows.

Sorry to hear about your encounter with this jackass, James. But don't worry, I think if this person does make himself into a billboard of intolerance, there will be plenty of abuse reports.

James,

It just never ends, does it? On a visceral level, filing an abuse report seems to be little enough to do against this kind of bullsh*t.

On a pragmatic level, though, I'm always concerned that doing anything to silence those "there was no holocaust and everything is run by Jews" conspiracy theorists only reaffirms to them that we as Jews are trying to hide the "truth" of what they are saying. In the end, I feel more comfortable not trying to stop the speech, but simply making certain the real truth is a more obvious presence in the world.

I'm sorry you had to endure this kind of hate speech, and I'm certainly not presuming to tell you what to do. But I wanted to share with you how I have dealt with similar things in real life.

Shalom!
B

Maybe you should have your dad sue him Jack, sorry freudian slip.

I used to live in germany for quite some time...and I am sorry to say...and this doesn't not only peratin to germans...
there still are people out there who actualy believe this kind of crap... it is extremely sad to see that some people just don't learn from history...or have so little self esteem that they need to go look for some hate-infested bs called Faschism for some kind of recognition.
All in all....yes there are still some of those mislead individuals out there...and there is no sense in even talking to them (experience)....best thing to do..mute and ignore...next time Sears or Walliworld has a brain on sale...be nice....and buy the poor sod one.

That's a noble sentiment that gets thrown around a lot. Call me fascist, but I wouldn't defend to the death a neo-nazi's right to express their beliefs. If someone were trying to take that right away from them I might say, "But... Hey..." but that's as close to the death as I would go.

Hang in there, James. His is a dead philosophy and he certainly won't find any welcome in SL.

Julian, who kind of wishes the world were run by Jews

James, I don't disagree with you at all that it's unfortunate that this person had the views they did. But hate speech is a slippery slope. Personally I find the concept of "hate speech" itself offensive and unconstitutional. It comes with a tacit presumption that certain views are never to be attacked and others must always be. Here's what you could run into if you pursued this:

1. You sought this person out and elicited a response from him on the subject. He responded with statements of what he believes. However deeply offensive you may find what he said, it wasn't harrassment.

2. If you pursue trying to get this person banned on the basis of his RL affiliation and beliefs, that would constitute a violation of the TOS.

I am in no way condoning what he said, or suggesting that it was right to say it, merely that it is his right to associate and believe as he chooses in RL. I have also run across many statements of threat, ridicule, and hatred expressed towards my religion over the years, and indeed the persecution of it continues in many parts of the world. One thing I'm not going to do though is try to get rid of people who express them.

Well said, Ananda. I'd also like to add that by driving any idea underground, we effectively shut down any dialogue that might be possible. While it's difficult to change the minds of those who are "true believers" in anything, by shutting off discourse we cheat ourselves of the opportunity to refute that which we think makes the "hate speech" untrue.

Things kept in small, dark places tend to fester. Better to bring them into the light and force them to stand up to the brunt of public scrutiny.

That said, hate ACTIONS (for instance, if this post resulted in someone plastering James' SL residence with swastikas) are a completely different matter...

James,

I am sorry that happened to you. As enlightened of a group of people as we think we are, it is always sort of shocking when this stuff from RL spills over into SL. LL has been pretty adamant in enforcing a no hate speech policy. The only dificulty is that there is a fine line between what is hate speech and simply holding an opinion. I learned this during my rather public battles in Federal when it was levelled at me, and also in dealing with the nuances of a certain poster who is famous for shockingly hate filled posts.

It is one thing to say "I don't approve of gay people" or "I don't like black people" or "Mexicans should be sent back to Mexico", that is arguably your freedom of opinion. It's quite another thing to say the much more common horrific slurs that are used against those three groups of people. I don't know specifically if what he said to you would have been hate speech or not, but if it made you this uncomfortable to post about it, I'm sure it was pretty vile.

Jewish, Catholic, gay, straight, white, black, hispanic, asian, male, female, we all seem to at one time or another be the target of someone's hatred for simply being who we are and that is never easy to deal with. I am at least glad that this is not a gray area of enforcement with the Lindens, as so many other offenses seem to be.

Cristiano

The greater problem is of course that regardless of whether hate mongers are allowed to express themselves or not (it seems to be that they are not), they still believe their views.

That is something that banning speech will never solve, or even improve.

That said, I would prefer not to have to hear such filth myself. Plugging my ears doesn't make it go away, though. It remains, festering in the minds of the bigots, which may be a more dangerous place than out in the open... but that is another discussion for another day.

-AP

You can hold whatever opinion you want, but the rules of conduct are very clear. If you harass, violate local standards, or target real-world individuals or groups, another resident can report the community standards violation and we will take appropriate measures from no action to suspension or possibly banishment in extreme cases.

Second Life is a community built on respect, and not a forum for real-world hatred or harassment.