Pathfinder: Attacks / Freedom of Speech / Slander

Hiro, I see this less as an issue of free speech, and more as one of common decency. Our job here is to support the SL community. The forum is provided as one tool for SL residents to get to know each other, talk about issues of common interest, and share information.

The nature of a forum -- asynchronous, owned by someone else -- makes it easy to cross the line from issues debate to personal attack. The rules we have in place are there to try to keep people on the side of debate. Attacks don't serve any good purpose, whether directed to an individual or a group, because it derails the debate and ultimately, if allowed to continue, can drive people away from the community. I don't believe that's hyperbole -- who wants to participate in a conversation filled with invective and insult?

We've tried to keep the rules simple and few, since we believe in free expression. But that doesn't mean we'll support or turn away from persistent negative behavior.

Do you speak in general terms about SL here, or just the forums LL provides?

I, too, was extremely disturbed by that post of Pathfinder's, so much so that I almost started a thread on it myself.

First, because it is illogical, as Hiro notes, and a famously dangerous form of illogic at that. And second, because the use of the term "attack" is so subjective, both in these and in other forums, and many, unfortunately, define it as any form of negative critique whatsoever.

I didn't make that thread because I figured the moderators will, in practice, be reasonable and use common sense, and allow us to continue to discuss such things as the public image of well-known groups.

coco

P.S. As a newbie, I wasn't confused at all about what the FIC is/isn't.

Meilian, I was referring specifically to these forums. The Community Standards, which apply in SL and on these forums, are the base for our guidelines.

I agree that defining an attack is very subjective, and the decisions we make are rarely black and white. One reason we talk about the decisions is to try to make sure we're being consistent as possible, given that it is subjective.

The responsibility of being a 'moderator' of any group forum has always been thankless, messy and aggravating at best. When one is trying to balance freedom to speak with the need to maintain order and peace, it is inevitable that there will be times where those that decide to 'censor' will be accused of being too harsh or too soft.

That's the main challenge for a moderator. Everyone has different views and opinions about what is acceptable versus unacceptable, including the moderator themselves. Once can try to establish written criteria about what is unacceptable, but people in general can be astonishingly creative in getting around stated acceptability lists. The written rules must always be tempered by reason and thought - and that's where the moderator comes in. Their job is not only to enforce the written rules, but to made a decision when to enforce the intent of the written rules.

I for one have found Pathfinder's actions on these boards to be remarkably well-balanced, generally reasonable and a positive influence on these forums. It's all but impossible for any moderator to make a decision without at least one person disagreeing with it, but if anyone has been walking that fine line with a soft touch, it's been Pathfinder.

- Newfie

I have to agree. Pathfinder is OK in my book.
(Just don't edit any of MY posts)

It's called 'common sense' and it's not something you can write down. In short - Linden Labs have entrusted Pathfinder & Co to use their best judgement in these matters.Now if you agree or disagree is really pretty irrelevant because it's their job,their service and if they do not perform said job to the satisfaction of their employers they will be fired.

Thats how it works.

The simple answer, is of course, if you dont like the official forums then go start your own.

I had to laugh when I saw your lengthy post. Why waste time thinking about this stuff. Attacks are not ok. Period.

Hiro, I've never been any good at logic, but does a group always have to be the sum of the individuals? A wall is the sum of the bricks of course, but can a group not be a collection of like minded people who share ideas and values. Attacking one is like attacking all? Analogy could be say be a fractal, the picture is always the same no matter how big or small it is.

Hehehe hope that's a good a try

*snrrrk!* Hehe, we furries can't even agree amongst ourselves what the heck a 'furry' is, to be honest.

I'm absolutely all for heavy moderation, but do it even handedly. It's trivial to see that people are simply provoking reasonably sincere individuals into defending themselves.

There is a constant barage of offensive language and insulting remarks directed at individuals and nothing is done about it.

In order to do real moderation you hit everyone hard and equally, and people would quickly get the message.

This is exactly why I constantly post against the FIC. The FIC exists, and Pathfinder is its lead trumpeter.

I just about choked to death on a waffle when I read that last sentance, blaze.

OH My good lord...

You really HAVE got to stop with that tripe...

Willow,

It's not tripe, but I'll thank you for proving exactly what I said about a constant barrage of insulting and derogatory language.

Anyways - what he is doing is precisely and exactly what I've been talking about.

I suggest you do a quick study of all the threads that Pathfinder has locked. 90% of them have been addressing an issue which is unpopular and consists of individuals provoking the original poster with precisely the same type of language you exemplify with your above statement.

Which doesn't actually backup your logic, however

Sigh.

As I said the other day blaze, sometimes you do make good points, it's just they tend to become obscured by this incessant, obsessive musing about conditions that don't exist.

Do you think Pathfinder is an ex-"FIC" member? I have hear some rumblings about this. Why in the hell would LL appoint someone who used to supposedly have "forum enemies" (as someone stated, I don't think it was you, although the last line of your post seems to indicate you have some similar thoughts) as a forum mod? Do you think they are stupid?

If you're still licking wounds over the Cat Cotton thread in which you two called people prostitutes and assumed people's motives, all I can say is too bad. You bring shitstorm threads on yourself when you attack people in that manner. The response garnered by that thread and by Cat's highly illogical and hypocritical profanity filter thread simply have nothing to do with your precious bogeyman, a.k.a. "The FIC". They have everything to do with people reacting in a normal manner to libellious accusations with zero proof.

Pathfinder, perhaps from a desire to appeal to popularity, wishes to appeal to a core group of posters in these forums.

He doesn't want to make same Jeska made, which was a fair and even handed approach.

So be it.

Let's all go back to discussing the bugs in 1.6

At least he won't have a hope in hell of locking those threads.

Nolan. I can't think of one thread you have not made which did not either contain either offensive language or personal, deragotory remarks about my individual character.

If you wish to think Pathfinder is not playing favorites, then by means, you are more than welcome to.

LOL insulting and derogatory language?!?!

Tripe!!!??

Get a grip Blaze, you may well think there is an FIC, and NO i am NOT personally attacking you before you start with that old chestnut, I just think the way you bang on about it and annoy alot of ppl, maybe YOU should be slapped a warning too eh?

I agree with you, alot of posters get away with profanity and such like, maybe me being one of them, but its hardly like I jump in a thread and say

OH my god your such a f%*%*$ T£&* is it?

THAT would deserve a warning, a suspension or a ban IMHO...

Only people that want to be provoked, can be. Period.

The moderators are here to do their job, and like it or not, they do it, I myself have had a warning as you know, so you cannot say that I get away with anything, and you know it.

You make derogatory remarks day in, day, out blaze. You are just a little less obvious than some of the rest of us. Not to mention you instigate, we react - a subtle but important difference. You like to hide behind the supposed existence of conspiratorial groups when you do so, however. That's probably why you fight so hard to give yourself some sort of immunity in that area, i.e., making up your own forum rules as you go; "It's ok to attack groups..", etc.

For the record blaze, I don't go out of my way to confront you, I don't need to, you are all over the forums with this "FIC" crapola, and it usually doesn't even matter what the thread was initially about, you will find some way to apply the situation to the "FIC", or blame "them" for something. I guess when one is in a perpetual state of discontent, one needs a perpetual scapegoat.

If you want to be left alone about this issue:

-Stop assuming people's motives in the manner in which you did Bedazzled's.

-Stop playing cat and mouse games. You know, where you make "FIC" comments, then someone replies and you come out with the "You are so self-important... blah, blah, blah." Do you ever read your own posts? My word man, you are one of the most self-important sounding people I have ever encountered. You try and project this air of being an absolute authority on most subjects, be they technical, social, or otherwise.

-Stop blaming all the problems you perceive on one segment of the populace.

-And for Pete's sake, stop injecting your faulty "FIC" logic into every thread that doesn't meet your standards.

If I were Pathfinder, I would be very irritated with you right now. You belly-ached for weeks that we needed more moderation - now that we have it, you are crying "FIC Mod!"

This is NOT Penny Arcade. It never will be. If you don't like it, I don't know what to tell you other than to find a past time that doesn't cause you so much anguish.

Last, but not least, maybe go play some SL rather than hanging around the forums 24 hours a day harping about supposed inequities. You are really making it difficult for anyone to take you seriously, other than other disillusioned SLers.

What is the definition of an "Attack"?
What are the official guidelines to calling any group "motives or actions" into question?

Although I tend to speak my mind, I am not into breaking rules for the sake of explosive "press". Those words seem to get me into hot water with a certain nameless group in these forums. Are you now telling me that I cannot respond to this group of ppl as a whole?

LL is a private company, I do not always agree with their rules but I must abide by those rules or leave. I choose to abide by those rules and enjoy the experience. Until such a time that the rules out weigh the fun factor for me.

Thanks for listening

Cat

Why does it have to be one or the other?

Imagine LL added a discussion forum where the rules were loosened. The rest of the forums would retain the present rules. If people read or posted on this new forum, they'd know what they were getting into. Some wouldn't want to participate in the less controlled forum.

What would happen? Some would feel slighted. Some would be angry. But mostly loudmouths and mean people would out themselves even more than they do now. Also, this forum would be useless and unpleasant for many of us to read.

It'd also be an administrative headache for LL. And I'd prefer they spent their time on other things. I don't imagine any of the Lindens spend their work hours yawning, stretching, and waiting for more work to come their way.

Besides, forum moderation is not heavy handed. Nor is it capricious. I've never felt constrained from expressing my thoughts here.

They tried this once. It was called the Mature forum. The basic TOS rules applied, but that was about it.

It didn't last that long, you might be able to guess.

Gleep! I didna know that! O.O *waves ta Jeska and Robin*

Just wanted to clarify my post...I really feel we are abusive of our forum moderators. I can't imagine Jeska enjoyed becoming a verb on these forums. That's why I posted that Jeska would be relieved to not have to deal with the...i think the best word to use is venom, that people would spit at her when she *did her job*. And now we've got a whole thread putting Pathfinder on trial for his moderator actions.

Except there's no trial here. If a forum moderatore makes a decision, that's final. They are the referees here, and arguing with the refs can get you thrown out of the game. Disagree with a call, that's fine. Dissing a moderator for a call is whiny and bitchy, if you ask me.

Pathfinder, Jeska, Robin....You guys rock. Keep up the great work...and send me Linden Bears!!!! I haven't gotten a single one yet!

having had tripe, that is got to be the most insulting thing i've ever read in these forums...