Slashdot disses There, praises Second Life

Go get some converts people:

http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/11/08/1655207&mode=nested&tid=127&tid=186&tid=206&tid=209&threshold=-1

Buuuuurn!

Heheh, I saw that article from a post in a There forum, it rilled them up some, sadly lots of things in that article are true and even most of the members admit it.

LMAO @ Ez!

LOL! that's classic

Precisely what I was thinking.

I had forgotten how poorly drawn and eerily disneyesque the avs look like in There. Thank you for reminding me how much that place disgusts me.

lol Ezhar... HoneyBunny is famous now I guess!.. hehe.. I met her in the beta for TSO and then saw her again in THERE. She always seemed like a fun gal.

Anyway, I was in THERE for only about a month before I was introduced to SL, and after a week of SL, I never looked back to THERE. Once version 1.1 came to SL, the game gave me everything I could find in THERE, plus *A LOT* more.

....Can't......stop.....laughing....!!!!

I'm going to cross-post, because I think this is valid here too:

Yes, There has some significant flaws, and I think it's important to identify them and figure out how to avoid those pitfalls in SL, but There still does some things better than SL, and it's important to look at those and then rip them off.

For instance, check out the There forums at http://www.thereuniverse.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi.

The biggest complaints about SL seem to be as follows:

1. it's so big and empty.
   
2. it's difficult to use.
   
3. it's slow, both in terms of hardware requirements and the sheer amount of data needed to transfer.
   
4. avatars are difficult to customize and even harder to make attractive. Choosing a face isn't as eas as There.
   
5. it's geared to builders; there's little content for users who aren't interested in building.
   
6. it's expensive. (as opposed to..?)
   
7. the newbie experience is highly lacking. One poster wrote of his harrowing quest to figure out what the hell was going on in Prelude.
   

Also, the lack of voice communications is apparently seen by many There users as being indicative of SL's inherent technological inferiority. (Because, you know, the rendering engine and all that stuff are easy.)

So these are all things that we KNOW about. SL is the "power user's" MMOE, (massively multiuser online environment) while There is the casual user's.

However, the issues that There fans who've tried SL mention are still big deals. They're exactly right: SL's UI is CRAP. It's inconsistent, it's slow, it's non-intuitive.

Better UI, more features and support for the casual user, more intuitive building and avatar customization tools. These are all features that, while not necessarily easy or quick to implement, are doable. They're also all issues that the Lindens know about and are working on.

Complaining that SL is geared towards builders is as silly as complaining that Everquest is geared toward RPG lovers... if you dont want to build, dont play SL. Bleh. It's like getting a box of legos and complaining that the only thing you can do with them is build stuff. Sheesh.
And as for a slow and crappy UI, well, at least SL doesnt need to boot up internet exploder every single god damn time i need to open a simple little informational text based window.
Casual users of anything dont need to be catered to, they need to be publically flogged to death. Imagine if I came to work one day and complained to my boss that that company was only geared towards power-workers and not casual workers. If youre gonna do something do it right or not at all.
If the Lindens are working to bring in more clueless idiots instead of interesting, mature, intelligent people, and want to make this game more like There or TSO then I'm sure many people in SL will be working on packing up their stuff and getting the hell outta here, fast.

Hmmm, I disagree on most of those points and I'm fairly new (1 month)

* big and empty - SL is huge and there are so many places to go and see!

* difficult to use - how? its mouse or keyboard friendly. It's fairly simple compared to a lot of other games

* slow - Ok this I agree with! Having an area be full at 30 avatars is annoying and those 'server is full' messages need to stop.

* Difficult to make AV's - with all the sliders how can one say this? My only comment is that the edging of clothing, makeup (lips) is too rough . I love all the options for my AV that I can do w/o purchasing any clothing or textures from other people.

* Its geared towards builders - Well they obviously haven't been to all the events that are held. Some days it seems like there's another event every 15 minutes. It's a giant chat program - half the new people I meet just want to socialize.

* expensive - nope, I don't think so. Considering I'm on so much in a month it is definately less than $.50 an hour for me.

* Newbie experience confusing - I was fine on the newbie island once I switched to a computer that could interpret the graphics. But like any game, if I clicked on things, note cards came up, there was a path (i.e. follow it), and then once I got to the new person area on the map there were lots of helpful things and people. Most other people were very happy to help me out.

* voice communication - nope I don't want it and I wouldn't enable it or respond to someone who was using it. I've met a few people who seem to want to "get to know me better" because of my av, but that's not why I'm on SL. Yes I do socialize on it and will possibly meet some great people but its not my main focus (which is to create a purple alien av - lol).

I enjoy SL and find it very relaxing to use. Plus I finally have a reason to really learn how to program if I don't want to buy other people's scripts.

Great post, Catherine!

You make some very valid points. SL and There both have their good points and bad... I'm sure the Lindens are looking at both and the ways to improve SL for everyone to enjoy.

Eggy- SL *is* geared towards builders. That's not necessarily a bad thing, either.. but it can't be the *only* thing that the Lindens concentrate on. If SL is simply just for building, why are there events, avatars, games to play and countless other user activities?

Since the majority of online game players are looking for interaction with others, I would think the social aspect of SL would continue to be developed, or the Lindens can't expect SL to grow.

I am a former user of There and TSO and I think every game including SL has their own positives and negatives and offers differerent things for different people. To each his own!

I'm not a builder myself.. but I'm trying to learn. I really object to the tone of your post, Eggy. I don't think it's fair for you or anyone else to encourage people who don't want to build to leave the game. I'd like SL to offer different things to as many people as possible, that way we'd have a much more varied and interesting experience.

JM

Look, I gotta get something through your guys heads again, and I'm sorry to do this, but it has to be done:

SL IS SLOW BECAUSE IT IS STREAMING ALL THAT DATA IN REAL TIME. THERE IS KEPT ON THE USERS HARD DRIVE BECAUSE THERECORP IS A BUNCH OF WOOSIES.

Those are valid concerns based on those people's experiences. Now, it's up to us to say things are changing

For starters, Linden World and DarkLife and more projects coming are showing there's more to do in SL than build and LOL (compared to just LOLing in There hehe).

Lindens understand this and are supporting projects that do new things. Go Akar and go myst people!

Pirate

Wow Eggy .. I must say, I take great offence to your post.

"Clueless idiot" .. is that what I am because I enjoyed TSO and to a lesser extent, THERE, and because building and/or scripting isn't my cup of tea? There are wonderful people who are currently playing THERE and TSO who are NOT clueless idiots who would contribute a lot to SL. They may not be able to build incredible structures or become the latest fashion designers, but there are many other things these people could offer. As JonMichael pointed out .. if all we wanted were builders, why bother hosting trivia events or Halloween parties? Sounds very elitist to me ... ICK!

Both Catherine and JonMichael make some very interesting points. There is a steep learning curve to SL and while that isn't necessarily a bad thing, I think it does discourage some would be subscribers which is a real shame. I personally know of 3 individuals we lost because they didn't *get* it. It took me a while to *get* this game .. but I'm stubborn and refused to give up.

I've played both TSO and THERE but have pretty much abandoned them since finding SL. I beta tested TSO, and played it exclusively, and obsessively, for a year. I eventually grew tired of the constraints of the game, but there are aspects to TSO that I miss greatly (the avatar to avatar interactions being number 1). While I found THERE to be nothing more than a virtual "pickup bar" where avatars stood around in circles, batting their eyes and looking cutesy, the movements (walking, running, dancing) are wonderful (doing flips on the hoverboard is kinda' fun too). I would love to see some of that implemented in SL and hopefully the Lindens are listening.

At this point in my SL life, I can build a pretty incredible cube .. I can colour it and move it around and even make it hollow ... in other words, a builder I'm not ..but I think I do contribute to the SL world in my own way. I love this game and my profile in THERE announces it. I only hope it helps to recruit some of those *clueless idiots* to give SL a try. Chances are, they will be THERE's loss and SL's gain.

Lyrical Song
with a clue

Er, Darwin, doesn't everyone know that? Of COURSE a dynamic environment is going to be more bandwidth-intensive than one that has all the data cached client-side.

Yes, some of those complaints are silly. But what's sillier is the attitude of "that's the way it is, if you don't like it, get the hell out."

Eggy, what are you TALKING about? Casual users of EVERYTHING have to be catered to. That's how things work: make them as easy as possible so someone can use something with a minimum of training.

I have to admit, I see some minor zealotry in both the posts here and on the There Universe board. Guys, just because you like SL, it doesn't mean that any and all criticism is completely unfounded.

I stand by my assertion that SL has a crappy UI. Yes, integrating with IE like There or Active Worlds is stupid, but that's an entirely DIFFERENT stupid mistake.
Yes, the UI could be worse, much worse, and there are plenty of examples out there of worse UI, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be better.

Likewise, lowering the learning curve for SL can only be good for everyone. I know many of you see the idea of non-building-oriented newbies as a scourge upon your Second Life, but come on, people. How many among you can honestly say that you were able to use every feature, every function of SL as soon as you got here?

Nobody's talking about turning SL into the AOL of online worlds. I think we can all agree that that's There anyway. Nobody is going to lose anything by having the client easier to use, and a lot of people are going to gain something. That's why they're working to improve it in 1.2.

I post on There Universe often and occasionaly, well, it seems rarely now, ever go on There.

Most of the people in There haven't tried SL since it was in beta, a few have tried it more recently, a friend of mine on There I was talking to last night said she didn't like SL at all, but then I found out she hadn't tried it since Beta, so alot of the points There people make against SL aren't even valid anymore (such as it being empty, content wise it isn't, people wise it depends on where you go and people are easier to find now anyway).

There are only a few things I see that There does better than SL, voice chat (which I don't really even like), and animations. Voice chat I find to be intrusive and anoying most of the time and there are only a few times I'll actualy want to use it, the animations seem smoother somehow.

SL's UI is pretty easy for me to understand, at first I had to rethink where things are, but this is true with many programs. The biggest arguement There fans seem to make is that avatars are "ugly", which that is totaly dependent on the creator, I've seen some very nice avatars before (human too), it just takes longer to get them just right.

SL isn't for everyone, its a more detailed and complicated world than There, and I like that, I love the detail and the ability of customization. I feel theres more There should copy what SL does than SL should copy what There has. There is terrible with the file download thing, and people have even started hacking the Flash part of There (There seems to be 40% IE, 50% Flash, 10% actual virtual rendering) because its so insecure.

My comparison has always been "There is playschool, Second Life is Lego Mindstorms/Tinker Toys". Sure SL does have things to improve upon, but thats true about any program, and I'm more confident that SL will improve itself than There will.

Actually, I was talking to the massess of people in There who complained that SL was too slow, but at the same time was taking my anger out on you, because I'm a jackass.

Most people in There just said, "Second Life is too slow and I got confused and left." I told them that SL is streaming and dynamic, and that There was kept all on the hard drive, and the response most of them gave me was, "Well, why don't they just do that to SL then?"

I have spent equal time being a There apologist and an SL evangelist, but no more apolgozing for There, I tell you!

Yes, all online games have their appeal and charms, There included. I was once an avid fan of There - though I never ever did feel quite right there. I felt stifled in my creativity and individuality. Through disastrous releases and more and more limits on what we could do in There, I waited patiently. And then later on, I realized I was being raped financially, a feeling that still fills me with anger. There has taken a horrible turn, and I don't think they can recover from it - greed is too ingrained in the nature of that company by now. It shows in the fact that they charge for every single thing you do practically, in real money. It is not uncommon to find longtime players who have spent $1000 or more on virtual crap. * glances around uncomfortably *

I was speaking with Oz Spade this morning, and I mentioned that I could give a f*ck what happens to There - let the entire thing fall into the ocean. He so kindly pointed out that the water in There is not even water anyway, it is a hard surface. So that is my final thought about There for right now. I found it amusing at least.

I wonder if the Thereians are counting on people who HAVE spent huge sums to stay BECAUSE of that fact. Since everything that the money was spent to gain is only useable in that environment, walking away would feel like walking away from an investment... Even though it is pure money-drain with no hope of ever getting the money back.

The whole concept of spending real money for stuff in There always scared me. People do it too much in EQ, but at least in EQ it gives you some sort of competitive advantage. What's the advantage of paying $5 for a There shirt? I can go to a thrift store in Real Life and get 10 shirts for $5.

I'm eternally grateful that the Lindens aren't trying to combine the RL economy with the SL economy. That gets real ugly, real quickly.

Cases in point: Project Entropia (:you must buy your new equipment every once in a while, or starve to death/die all the time) or There (pay for everything ever).

But then again, it IS keeping There afloat... here's hoping Linden Labs is staying financially solvent (another one of my fears).

LF

Herr Linden said once that SL's break-even point is in the tens of thousands of customers. Hopefully LL can reach that point before the venture capital dries up. I don't think they have yet.

Also I'll bet it isn't tens of thousands on the current grid, but tens of thousands on one considerably larger than that which we have now...

The scathing There article, which basically tells me that There is a car-with-the-hood-welded-shut type deal where the height of the experience is standing around in circles LOLing, tells me all I need to know. The fact that they chunk everything over to your HD rather than streaming everything real-time is the final nail in the coffin. In SL, I can buy land, terraform it, and build a house board-by-board and then fill it with scripted gizmos while ten people watch. There sounds more like...

...Virtual Worlds...

I played "there" for about 15 mintues before coming to SL.

I'm not a builder or a socializer, but I do like to explore. It was just too hard for me to get around in "there". Walking seemed to take forever and there was no flying.

However as a big time simmer, I wished SL had avator to avator interactions, but I expect that in the future.