Israel vs Palestine

I was wondering, what do you all think about the whole Israel vs Palestine issue? I know that your administration is very sympathetic towards the Israeli people, but I dont know what the real americans think about it.

I think they're both nuts.

But, I also think Israel should have a right to exist (which most middle eastern countries refuse to acknowledge)

LF

I agree LF, both sides need mental help. I also agree that Israel has the right to exist. Real borders and a real Palestinian nation need to be set up within the next few years otherwise the Israelis are going to find themselves the minority. I believe Arafat messed up by not accepting the deal that guy (that ex-general I think, can't remember his name) made him; what more did he want?! The whole situation is really sad now.

Same, they're both crazy for blood. I think it's the heat.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain me who the heck are these so called palestinians. Thousands of years ago, the inhabitants of what we call Palestine, Gaza, et al, were the jews, long before christ or mohammed ever existed.
Those wackos who think they have some sort of right to the land are only there because of all the islamic expansionism and war-mongering that took place in the dark and middle ages.
They invaded us too, along with the spanish and even the french, and we spent over 1000 years kicking their moorish asses out of our penninsula, and to this day some parts of northern africa are still under spanish control.
Mind you, I'm not saying they should leave, Israel has exhibited nothing but reprehensible behavior ever since its creation.
But it IS rather amusing to see that not a single soul on earth has any knowledge of history or can be bothered to pick up the nearest encyclopedia. Especially not in Israel and Palestine.
What with all the fighting the three main religions of the western world have done in claiming rights to it, I think Jerusalem and the surrounding area ought to be declared some sort of neutral zone, not owned by any country, and administered by the UN or something.

Someone explain why Israel has a "right" to exist; I just don't see why that is.

Oh... my opinion of the two groups? They're all idiots. Of course, I'll admit that I don't know exactly what it's like to live there and go through the things they do, so that opinion is admittedly a total outsider's view and subject to potentially radial change.

It's not just the [current] US administration that's friendly with Israel, that's been a consistent US policy... Same with Taiwan, S Korea, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Pakistan, etc.

This is a really good topic, btw.

I agree with you Eggy. I mean, the Isrealis have the land now (or should I say again?), so the Palestinians have to live with it. Land has "exchanged hands" many times over the centuries (just ask the Mongols, the Persians, the Byzantines etc.). To put it bluntly, Palestinians don't have a right to that land because it's not theirs anymore. Presently, the Palestinians simply cannot forcibly remove the Jews; maybe in 100 years, if they still hate the Jews, they can try.

Perhaps Jerusalem should be an international city but somebody named Arafat didn't want that. I'm sure the hardline orthodox Jews opposed that too. Both sides want the city for themselves. Christians would be in favor but there aren't many Palestinian or Israeli christians.

Garoad, I actually think it's very stupid to say "Israel has the right to exist." The only reason people say that is because the Palestinians and many Muslim (especially Arab) countries say that "Israel has no right to exist." They wish that all the Jews would move 75 miles west (into the ocean).

And since this can happen in any country, and can be backed up by force of law, it was decided that there needs to be ONE refuge in the world where the Jews can run to if required. One place in the world where they're in charge.

WWII proved that clearly even the protection of law is insufficient to protect them.

The whole situation is a mess, and one I cannot see a resolution to any time soon.



Okay, I'm a little rusty but I do know a little about this.. [warning, long and possibly very dull]

Eggys comment is simplistic and essential incorrect. The first established (identifiable and self-ruling) group to claim the land we now know as Palestine were the Canaanites - who were not Jews and were there as early as 3000BC. But even earlier than that there was a native population that was not Jewish. The irony is that prior to the rise of Christianity, Jews (actually Israelites), Babylonians, Persians and native Palestinians were living together in that region, in relative peace for many generations. There were Israelite enclaves right across the middle east following the Assyrian conquest of the Israelite state in 721BC.

Both the Jews *and* Palestinians then underwent a long period of control by other forces; the Romans (who swallowed Palestine in 63BC), Byzantines in 330AD (which helped Christianity to spread). In 750AD Palestine was controlled the'Abbasid caliphs from Baghdad (and briefly from Egypt), before 1099AD when the Crusades began. These were effectively a western attempt (backed by the Popal mandate) to create a Christian homeland around the most significant religious sites, but also were highly profitable in terms of plunder.

The fact remains that the Palestinians, in one guise or another, have been there for thousands of years. There were very few Jews at all in Palestine, when in 1882 Baron Rothschild (a wealthy Frenchman) began to fund the establishment of Jewish (Zionist) settlements. In 1897 the self appointed 'Jewish Colonisation Association' issued a call to create a Jewish state in Palestine, regardless of the encumbant population. A financial fund was started to pay for this.

In a bid to stop the migrations the Palestinians authorites attempted to gain Independence in 1919, but this was rejected by the Paris peace committee (largely by Britain).

There then followed an organised and rapid movement of Jews into Palestine over a series of waves (in the 1920s some 90,000 Jews were shipped in). By now serious trouble had begun with the native Palestinians who were being systematically re-located away from the more fertile upland areas. In the 1930s in excess of 200,000 Jews moved into the region, Zionist groups forcibly removed Palestinians farmers from their land, and despite official protests by the Palestinians the British government decided not to act.

Following the 2nd World War, Britain and America scrapped the remaining land ownership restrictions and Israel as a self-governing entity was ratified. A series of conflicts with Syria and Egypt followed, but with American financial and military backing the state was held intact.

I think that just about sums it up.
As a Brit, it is not perhaps our greatest work of world diplomacy. *sigh*

I can provide reference books if anyone wishes to know more.

(Note: I'm biased, I'm a jew.)

I really think that Israel is too *small* at this point to keep breaking it up. Israel was created after WWII as a safe haven for Jews, and at the moment, I wouldn't go there, because it's so UNSAFE.
(You may not know this, but any Jew can travel to Israel, and as long as you can document you are Jewish, you have automatic citizenship.)

I honestly don't know why the Palestians and everyone else feels the need to destroy the Jews. Everyone could easily live in peace in Israel, if the Palestinians just *stopped* throwing rocks and whatnot.

If you notice, everytime the Israeli army attacks, it's in retaliation for something THEY did, like blowing up an entire family at someone's Bar Mitzvah or Wedding.

How'd you feel if your entire family was killed at your wedding because some morons think your people should be completely ridden from the face of the earth?

I can't imagine it James, it must be horrific there at the moment. But my perception is that what the Palestinians actually want is the Jews completely ridden from what they consider to be their land (not gone altogether), which is a little different. Constant retaliation will never ever help the situation unless you are prepared to kill every single one of them, but the anger is understandable.

Dreadful mess.

well, i think some racial hatred is still there. The middle east pretty much hates the jews (for no good reason, really), and for what? they occupy some land smaller than new jersey?

Blah.

LF

Eggy and all
The problems in the Middle East are so unfortunate for everyone on a continual basis.
To be honest, I don't see things ever straightening out. After all, there has been unrest in this area for thousands of years, with no dissolution for anyone.
It is such a shame- The Holy Land is and should be for everyone to enjoy with 3 major religions having such important sites to visit.
It is however, unbearably apparent when you visit what the problems really stem from. Such a small area, literally blocks encircle so many holy shrines. Inaddition, there is NO ONE at all that you meet whose family has not been touched by personal loss of life.

When you visit Israel it is easier to understand religion itself. I walked around for 2 weeks marveling at everything I saw, and was lucky enough to visit holy sites from all religions. It is truly God's Place...

"Imagine all the people, living life in peace..."

I think they're both crazy. I think it's even crazier that we (the U.S.) continue to fund Israel to the tune of billions a year. Can anyone explain that to me?

That's what happens when you agree with everyone.

Anyway, you guys obviously aren't Jewish if you beleive Israel doesn't have the right to exist (well, yeah, duh). I may or may not be talking to Pepper, because I really don't know what Pepper thinks. I was born Jewish, and although I don't practice, it has every damn right to exist. I mean, come on, the Middle East hates the Jews for no apparent reason. They own some land smaller than they should care about, and the Jews aren't really threatening them, but naturally they must all be killed. Anyway, they both need mental help. The Jews need to move and the Middle Easterns need... God knows what. *ahem* Alah knows what

It's all about belief, obviously. Belief is the one thing you can argue forever and never come to a conclusion on.

The Israelis won't agree to a Palestinian state because they believe the Torah tells them that only Jews must be in control of the holy land. I came across this little gem while browsing the web a few days ago...

"As far as the Torah’s view regarding partitioning Eretz Yisrael into two countries, one Jewish and the other non-Jewish, Rabbi Tzvi Yehuda Kook writes:

(Kook is a fitting name!)

“Such thoughts are inconceivable. There is an absolute, two-fold prohibition against transferring any part of the Land of Israel to non-Jewish control. This law applies to every clod of earth, every foot of its soil…. And if a Jew commits this sin of handing over any part of Eretz Yisrael to the non-Jews, his deed affects nothing. It is an illegal act. It is of no significance and has no force. It is null and void…

“No denial or distortion can nullify the one reality of the Book of Books, the Bible, or of the nation of nations, Israel. In the same way, no one can nullify the living attachment of the Torah and People of Israel to the divine reality of the Land of Lands - Eretz Yisrael. Neither can anyone prevent this attachment from growing stronger…

“Faith in G-d and in the vibrant, living Torah of Israel necessarily determines our concrete relationship to our whole land, and obligates us to hold on to all its mountains and valleys. With our faith in the Eternal One, we know that this whole land was given to us and belongs to us alone… Only through spiritual confusion and impoverishment could anyone even consider discussions about chopping up the land of our life’s blood… There can be no rebirth for the Jewish People or its individual Jews if it involves dividing up or diminishing their Land. Rebirth can come about only through the wholeness of the people and the Land… and through maximizing G-d’s role and proclaiming His holiness both to our neighbors and intimates, as well as to all the nations, far and near.”

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/article.php3?id=3214

So there you have it... this isn't about human rights. It's about religious bigotry. And as far as I'm concerned it's further proof that if there actually is a god, he's a sadistic prick. God of love my ass! I think the rest of the world should give them 20 years to learn to share the land, and if they don't we ought to flatten Jerusalem. If you can't share the toy, no one gets it!

Part of the reason the US has always supported Israel has to do with evangelical christianity. They believe that Jews must be in control of the Temple Mount in order to facilitate the second coming of jesus.

You obviously don't understand why the Middle Easterns want it. You know why? Neither do they.

Israel is the abused child that grows up to be a child abuser.

So is this where the aliens come in and save us all from racial hatred and and and.. well you get the idea. .


(just putting some light into it even though there isn't any in this subject).

But really, personally I think its a never ending struggle. With the hatred towards each other, theres simply no way for true peace to come to the region. In the end, (I know this is sad but true) It will be the fight whoever is the strongest. As much as our past has shown, oppression is not the way, but at this point, theres no alternative to people who insist on blowing up themselves for a 'cause' relatively unknown (in logical terms).

Oh and a question.. weren't the Palestinians in an area called IRAQ?.. why haven't they bothered to reclaim that area? Why must they go for the Jews?

Good question, Eins. It's all very sad for the people living in Israel.

Actually the Israelis have made several attempts to get the ball rolling toward exactly that end. What happens? The Pals blow something up and screw the whole thing up.

Chip, please stop attributing the motives of a few religious individuals to the entire nation. I've been in this discussion before and this is something I see time and time again. People look at some admittedly inflamatory statement from an Orthodox religious leader and think that the argument is about religious bigotry, when in fact the only reason Sharon and his bunch are even in power in the first place is that the Israelis (many of them entirely secular jews) felt backed into a corner enough by Palestinian violence that there was a need to put him there.

Fair enough Corwin... obviously the entire nation of Israel isn't hardore orthodox. That said, in my opinion they are no more the victims in this conflict than the Palestinians are. Here's a few statistics of casualties since the start of the “al-Aqsa Intifada” in October of 2000 as of May 2003

Palestinians killed: 1900
Israelis killed: 700

Palestinian non-combatants killed: 733
Israeli non-combatants killed: 546

(source: http://ict.org.il/)

I find it impossible to have much sympathy for either side, whatever of the many root causes you want to focus on. The suicide attacks on Israel are a horrible thing, but because of their sensational nature we tend to see the results in an exaggerated way. For a bit of perspective consider the following statistic...

January-October 2003 Homicides in the city of Chicago: 507
(at that rate, in the same period of time as the casualty statistics above, more than twice as many Chicago residents would be murdered as Israeli's killed by terrorism. Guess we should start building a wall around Chicago eh?

(source: www.cityofchicago.org/police)

I'm not on either side of this issue, but I do think that Israel gets too much slack for its part in perpetuating the violence.

A curse on both their houses. And on the idiots in Northern Ireland, too, while I'm thinking about it. Religion is a fine hobby and nearly as good a time sink as SL is but you shouldn't kill people over it.

I'm not prepared to give wholesale endorsement to all of Israel's actions... but honestly, a lot of the 'noncombatants' on the Palestinian side are only noncoms by an extremely loose definition of the word... and those who are genuinely noncoms are in a bad situation. Honestly I have to place more blame on Hamas for hiding behind them and continuing to shoot than I do the Israelis for shooting back.