Spy Vendors?

I don't see what the problem is, unless you're buying some.. well, let's call it 'Sensitive material"

Here is something that i've been working on that i plan to release to the SL community some time soon.

It's basically a stand alone application that can poll information automatically from a pop3 email address that a simple 4-lined script can send information to that you simply add to your objects or vendors (note that vendors do not have to be the sole conspirator in information gathering of sales data).

The point of the program is for sales tracking only.

However, with sales tracking comes a lot of responsibility. Since i designed the program and the database, i've decided that there is no real good reason for the need to store customer keys. This system tracks individual transactions... customer names included.

Why customer names?

It's needed in the business world. Plain and simple. Customer Service is absolutely necessary if you sell a product or service. If "bob" where to not track his sales... and i knew this. I could IM bob stating i tried to purchase an item, and did not receive it.

This program is a mere enhancement on the "Account History" option. You can search transactions up to 300,000 entries (say you did 200 transactions a day... it would take you almost 4 years to fill that up). That is the plus side. You can search anywhere between march of 2003 to december of 2020.

Our current built in account history sucks ass.

Even the xls downloads off the site will give you a customer's name... but not the name of the actual product.

The purpose of this program is to help business owners with product development, sales stradegizing, and forecasting (also included is automatic script-generation, payroll, manual transcactions, and for those who can't use pop3-cut and paste account history info parsing). The best feature, however, is the ability to generate sales reports/graphs/charts.

I've been using this now for 2 months, and it's just about ready for beta release. I personally think, as a business owner in the virtual world, that it is necessary to at 'least' have these options availiable to us. There is not much use i could use this information for other then SL Business development/growth. It cannot track IP addresses. The ONLY reason customer names are recorded is for the safety of the business owner and maintaining integrity.

Would this be something that you could use? Or do you think this is way too much exposure to information we already have availiable to us?

screenshot of program provided with sensitive information blocked out.

I track the date and time of purchase, vendor location, buyer, item, and item price. The biggest uses I see are A) figuring out which vendor locations are the most profitable and B) if I release a product update, all I have to do is type a one-line select statement to figure out everyone who needs to get that update. Drop those names into a notecard, run it through a distribution machine, and bang, everyone is updated. There are a few other benign uses I can think of.

My idea of a "spy vendor" would be something that tracks visitors that are standing in front of other people's vendors, or does something really outrageous, like listening in on conversations. Of course, unannounced chat recorders/transmitters are a TOS violation and will get you banned.

The way vending works in sl means that no purchase is anonymous. This is very unlike rl where unless I choose to give retailer my details or buy through mail order my shopping is my own business.

If somethings planned in sl are illegal in the UK that should hopefullly make people think. We are in danger of rehashing the arguments for and against the introduction of ID cards in the UK - with the arguments that people should have nothing to hide vs why should people know other people's business.

Of course it is more convenient for the retailer if everyone registered their products - but most people do not. Should the rights of the retailer come above the rights of the shopper?

Do sl shoppers have a right to privacy?

Well, reason why I use term "spy vendor" here is not because retailer collect information but because somebody else does, without the consumer knowing.

When I go to one store in SL and buy something of course I assume that the person selling to me knows about the purchase. However, I don't suspect that this data will be transmitted to some third party, permanently stored, connected with data collected in other stores I visit and so on. So I consider what this third party does at least pretty close to spying on me. It is collecting and connecting information about me without my consent or without any way to notice.

I also don't think most retailers who get one of those convenient spy vendor machines are aware of the scope of data collection going on and about the consequences.

Now this poll show that majority of people are concerned about this. 43% of people want retailers completely avoid spy vendors. I think every retailer with sense of responsibility should take note of this.

If you want very simple method to keep track of sales here is one thing everybody can easily do himself/herself:

1. Get one public domain vendor such as the one Apotheus once published.

2. Create one Yahoo e-mail account for your accounting. Make sure to choose one password that is save. Don't tell anybody name of your account to avoid spam.

3. Add one command to vendor script that send e-mail to your Yahoo account after each purchase. This is very simple, everybody who ever made one script can help you, or ask me in world if you don't know whom to ask. Make sure to include product name, price, date, store name and if you want name of customer in that mail.

After this your e-mail account will work like your personal database, with one e-mail per purchase. Since meanwhile you have hundreds of megabyte space at Yahoo you can keep long history before account ever runs full.

4. You can now obtain following information:
a) Total number of sales: This is number of e-mails in your account
b) Sales per customer: Use search feature and enter name of customer. You get listing with all sales and total number of hits displayed
c) Sales per product: Similar as per customer. Just search for product name.
d) Sales per store: Search for store name
e) Sales per period: Limit search by start date and end date

The only thing you will not get this way is exact L$ totals for sales. But given that this method is free, save and easy, what you get is already pretty helpful

- Edited to remove implication of personal attack -

When vendors are outlawed only outlaws will have vendors. Or fenders... or sumptin.

Edit: removed kinda redundant post

A few points that seem particularly relevent to this discussion.

1) Nobody forces anyone to use a particular vendor (Well, I understand some malls do force people to use their own vendor. I would be far more concerned about *this* than anything else, as I would be worried they were skimming money, had back doors, etc. I would never participate in a mall if I was told I *must* use a single vendor, unless it was open source).

2) Nobody forces anyone to buy from any particular vendor.

3) If you are honestly so offended by this topic, I suggest you log off now and never get back on the internet, because I promise you you have been /extensivly/ mapped and profiled on the internet. Everyone has. This type of data harvesting, while I don't exactly agree with it, is nothing new. I don't see why SL is somehow supposed to be different.

4) You've yet to demonstrate a harm in this. It's clear you don't /like/ it, and I don't like it either, nor do I like the fact that everything I do on the internet is corrolated, cataloged, and used to target me for things. But just because I don't like it doesn't make it /wrong/.

5) I'm going to agree with Cristano. Your poll choices are exceedingly weighted. Your 43% figure, is, therefor, absolutely meaningless. Don't cite figures until you obtain them in an unbiased method. It only weakens your point and your credibility to do otherwise.

6) In any system of centralized data collection, there is only so far you can go to ensure privacy. Particularly when we are given such limited tools to transmit data in and out of SL. No matter what efforts any vendor that provided a web based interface for a vendor took, it would still ultimatly be an honor system. This is not a failure of the design, but of the toolset.

Now lets become practical. As one first step I would suggest you add to your terms of service one clear statement and guarantee of privacy that sales data will

1) only be visible to the retailer
2) not be used in any other way, neither individually nor as aggregate, neither manually nor automatically, neither commercially nor non-commercially.

Another thing that may help would be one message to tell shopper what happens. Such as "Thank you for your purchase. This purchase is tracked on Gigas server but this data will solely be visible to your retailer and not used for other purposes." Or something that sound better but serves the purpose of keeping end user informed what happens.

To make it short: I would probably consider your system save enough if you guarantee that you will not use collected data in any way (except for making sales data available to retailers about their own sales) and if I could successfully sue you if you break that promise.

- Removed in light of anshe's reasonable response -

This, I will happily do. It will appear in the next version.

Edit: With one exception - I am providing free of charge daily sales breakdowns for the global market (% of sales per day), which - I am posting into the Land/Economic Forum. I will probably expand this analysis in the future, but any such analysis will be freely availible, and located in that forum.

Edit2: Some of this is already inplace, we do have a privacy policy already, however, I will expand it to the vendors. Additionally, I am bound to the terms of Australian Privacy law, which is some of the best on the planet, in terms of rights of the consumer. (More information on this, is availible: http://www.privacy.gov.au/act/ here.)

-Adam

Alright, this sound good. If you are interested I am willing to work with you on this, as might be some other members of the community who share concerns about data usage. If this lead to save product I promise I will be first to give you credit for it.

And same offer extend to SLExchange and usage agreement of data collected by websale. Maybe also somebody in community who understand more about law and user agreement and such could help...

Here we are, updated privacy policy.

SecondServer.net Privacy Policy

The new sections are below 'Sales Tracking'.

-Adam

Alright, let me quote what you added. I am not expert in this kinda thing, so maybe some people here can also help take one look:



One thing I notice that I would like some refinement on is this part:

Any data collected by SecondServer.net will not be used for personal gains by itself, or any of it's partners, outside of aggregate analysis that is not identifiable with any user.

Given what you just posted this may not correctly express what you actually try to say. If you let me try I might suggest something like this:

Any data collected by SecondServer.net will not be used for personal gains by itself, or any of it's partners. Aggregate analysis may be released to the general public that is not identifiable with any user, buyer, retailer, specific product or retail location.

This wouldn't exclude that e.g. one retailer explicitly permits you to publish sale statistic about her product. You may end up publish reports like this:

TOP SELLING ITEMS
1. privacy protected 129312 units
2. Spy T-Shirt by Maxx Monde 111121 units
3. Golden For Sale Sign by Anshe Chung 102321 units
4. privacy protected 101101 units
5. Political Manifesto of the SDF by Ulrika Zugzwang 99942 units
6. privacy protected 92421 units
7. privacy protected 91211 units
8. Memories of a sheep baron by Schwanson Schlegel 81212 units
9. privacy protected 79212 units
10. privacy protected 75012 units

Where in this case Maxx, Ulrika, Schwanson and I would have opt in to have product data be published while 6 unnamed people would have refrained from doing so.

Mmmm, that is what I can think of right now. Maybe somebody else has some more ideas?

Alright, I'll add that in, with a 'without permission' clause, to allow for people to allow their data to be seen.

-Adam

Alright, this was one swift reaction. Thanks, Adam. If I am not mistaken this look solid and legaly binding. Together with info message for consumer this may do the trick, but let's give other people some time to comment. I for now am quite happy and hope more people can confirm that I have not overlook something.

Now I would like see something similar from SLExchange

I have removed my earlier post in light of your positive suggestions, however I take both the rights of users, and my own reputation as a trustworthy individual very seriously, and I dont particularly feel 'at home' when either (or in this case) both are in question.

-Adam

Please understand that in such situation I apply distrust by default, no matter who the individual is. If this was perceived as me questioning you as a person or your business in general then this was not what I intended.

I would say that Anshe has had that exact feeling Adam and can more then empathize with you!

I think a lot of useful information has been brought up in this thread (without it degenerating into personal attacks). Congratulations Anshe and Adam! I think this is a perfect example of the forums at their best.

I have a beta version of just such an online vendor report tool for Neualtenburg as well. I'll take steps this weekend to ensure that those who purchase from us have their privacy protected too.

~Ulrika~

Ok in Laymans terms what are you saying if an Individual Vendor owner is tracking their Individual data of sales they should:

A) Release the knowledge that they are tracking sales data...

B) define why they are doing it

C) place a disclaimer as to the use of the data?

I agree that Spy Ware that tracks OTHER peoples sales and OTHER peoples data collection methods is wrong but to Make a Vendor announce they are tracking thier personal data is wrong as there may be no personal information collected.

For instance a vendor that only collects Item name/time/location/cost/and payment recieved is benificial for tracking sales data only. Why would this information be relevant or available for public disclosure. Im sorry somethings are protected and the autonimity of a businesses internal practices is the businesses own business.

Wanting this sort of information disclosed is not only arrogant but shows a sign of jealousy. Why? because if their business model is failing and they "Percieve" the other business is doing fairly well they will want to know so they can either emulate the model or postulate why their model is failing or succeeding. This is in essence corporate espionage. To dare or even think this sort of information should be accesseble by outside sources is a violation of business rights let alone personal information rights.

Anyway I digress,

Sincerely, Shadow

im sry i am new to the world and the fourms but WTH this has to be the sillyest thing i have heard of, let me make shure this is what i am getting out of this ...

Your worried that someone is gathering intangable information about intangable items

seems like market research to me, a common and effective practice, if you arn't selling jack and want to know what is selling, thats the way to do it

lets face it peps if the entire SL databases died burned and fell to the 3rd layer of hell (oh no they know when and who bought what also with nothing more than a verbal promise) your items and money are gone.

Over here in the real world if a database crashes your bank card doesnt de-res out of your wallet.

Also if you wanna start a big brother paranoia scare dont do it with information and items that dont exist. start it over the fact that SL (and virtually millions of others ) know your real name street address and have your credit card # on file... slip of the keyboard by a hacker and you have a bill for a porche, that has a very real 70 + grand price tag.

also, you go and try to find wal-marts market research... just becuase it isnt plastered on the front door doesnt mean it isnt available. just not to someone in which its none of their business